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ChickenFingers
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I still am praying about coming back though. It honestly changes based on the week about which way I’m leaning. It is a paralysis of over analysis.
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PilgrimMichelangelo
Guest
Me too. To swim the Tiber the first time is a bit daunting, especially knowing my fickle heart and wandering will.
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Margaret_Ann
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Sending you and @PilgrimMichelangelo hugs and prayers.
Just a few thoughts (and apologies to St. Peter):
Before Pentecost, St. Peter was very zealous and perhaps a bit rash, like when he said that even if the others denied Our Lord, he would never deny Him. Whereupon Our Lord told him that before the cock crowed twice, he would deny Him 3 times. St. Peter never did anything half-heartedly.
In my non-infallible opinion, if Our Lord wanted a “perfect” pope, then He could have chosen St. John who was the only Apostle at the foot of the cross (as far as we know from Holy Scripture). The fact that He chose St. Peter corresponds in a way to what St. Paul would later write of himself to the Corinthians (2 Cor. 12: 9): “…Gladly therefore will I glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may dwell in me.” He chose St. Peter in order that His power would be manifested in him.
Every pope since St. Peter (even the popes who are also saints) had their weaknesses, some more egregious than others. There never has been a “perfect” pope because of the simple fact that men are not perfect and will not be perfect save by correspondence with the grace of God.
Yet Our Lord established the Catholic Church upon St. Peter and promised that the gates of hell will never prevail against it. Does that mean that the enemy and his infernal legions are going to sit idly by? NO - but they will NEVER prevail.
The Catholic Church which is the Mystical Body of Christ is going through its own Passion and will go through its own “death”. How we don’t know. What we do know is that just as Christ rose on the third day, so will His Mystical Body, the Catholic Church, rise once more. Our part is to stay with the Most Holy Mother of God, St. John and the holy women.
Liturgically, we are in Paschaltide, singing Alleluia and Christ is Risen. However, as one priest said a few weeks ago, “the whole world is on Lent.” How long it will be that way I don’t know.
At some point, the crises in the Church and the world WILL end, probably not at the same time but they WILL end. Then will "… the earth resound from pole to pole with one cry: Praise to the Divine Heart that wrought our salvation; to It be glory and Honor forever. Amen. (Act of Consecration of the Human Race to the Sacred Heart of Jesus by Pope Leo XIII).
Just a few thoughts (and apologies to St. Peter):
Before Pentecost, St. Peter was very zealous and perhaps a bit rash, like when he said that even if the others denied Our Lord, he would never deny Him. Whereupon Our Lord told him that before the cock crowed twice, he would deny Him 3 times. St. Peter never did anything half-heartedly.
In my non-infallible opinion, if Our Lord wanted a “perfect” pope, then He could have chosen St. John who was the only Apostle at the foot of the cross (as far as we know from Holy Scripture). The fact that He chose St. Peter corresponds in a way to what St. Paul would later write of himself to the Corinthians (2 Cor. 12: 9): “…Gladly therefore will I glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may dwell in me.” He chose St. Peter in order that His power would be manifested in him.
Every pope since St. Peter (even the popes who are also saints) had their weaknesses, some more egregious than others. There never has been a “perfect” pope because of the simple fact that men are not perfect and will not be perfect save by correspondence with the grace of God.
Yet Our Lord established the Catholic Church upon St. Peter and promised that the gates of hell will never prevail against it. Does that mean that the enemy and his infernal legions are going to sit idly by? NO - but they will NEVER prevail.
The Catholic Church which is the Mystical Body of Christ is going through its own Passion and will go through its own “death”. How we don’t know. What we do know is that just as Christ rose on the third day, so will His Mystical Body, the Catholic Church, rise once more. Our part is to stay with the Most Holy Mother of God, St. John and the holy women.
Liturgically, we are in Paschaltide, singing Alleluia and Christ is Risen. However, as one priest said a few weeks ago, “the whole world is on Lent.” How long it will be that way I don’t know.
At some point, the crises in the Church and the world WILL end, probably not at the same time but they WILL end. Then will "… the earth resound from pole to pole with one cry: Praise to the Divine Heart that wrought our salvation; to It be glory and Honor forever. Amen. (Act of Consecration of the Human Race to the Sacred Heart of Jesus by Pope Leo XIII).
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OrbisNonSufficit
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I can not agree with this more. I think the “Spirit” of Vatican II is abused heavily. Some people really act like old Church ended and new Church came. I really like fact we can have liturgies in vernacular… I also like that OF allows for Communion in both kinds (even though in my country, it is not allowed and probably won’t be anytime soon… Priest is still allowed to allow us to receive Precious Blood if we are either altar-serving or Mass is attended by very small amount of people). I like many things Vatican II (re-)introduced, but in the end abuses that came out of it were something not from the Council itself. I pray for a Pope that can and will fix those abuses because I am under impression that people desperately need it.
I will pray that we find where Christ’s Church is. May He lead us where we belongChickenFingers:
Me too. To swim the Tiber the first time is a bit daunting, especially knowing my fickle heart and wandering will.
That makes perfect sense to me. Well, my Confirmation Patron Saint is St. John the Apostle so I am a a bit biased to agree when you say he would be “perfect” Pope
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George720
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I came in under an ex-Evangelical Priest - No small matter for an atheist sinner! I came to terms with it when a cradle-O was complaining about him, and I came to his defense, saying “He is, after all, a recovering Evangelical! My sins come off slow too!” So the Priest got wind of me calling him a recovering Evangelical… And yes, I braced for the rebuke, I will admit it! But instead he began describing himself as a recovering Evangelical when talking to others… Orthodoxy does that, you see… Even to old hard-liners! It just grinds down hard edges and softens the soul…
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Elvis_George
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Yeah I’ve been thinking about joining the Syriac Orthodox church idk tho
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adamhovey1988
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I wouldn’t, but that is your decision.
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Elvis_George
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nothing is set in stone I still have 4 more years until I’m 18 lol
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Margaret_Ann
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Btw, ++Sako was on TV and he sang the Trisagion! I immediately thought of you. (You posted it on another thread.)
Finally, please consider remaining Syro-Malabar Catholic. I know it’s tough. I’m Ukrainian Greek Catholic and both my siblings married RCs so now they’re RC. I love my Ukrainian Greek Catholic church. Please learn more about your own Tradition so you can share more with us!
Finally, please consider remaining Syro-Malabar Catholic. I know it’s tough. I’m Ukrainian Greek Catholic and both my siblings married RCs so now they’re RC. I love my Ukrainian Greek Catholic church. Please learn more about your own Tradition so you can share more with us!
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ChickenFingers
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If you are 14 I wouldn’t consider leaving until your’e at least 30. Honestly. I know that may sound condescending or a LONG time, but I’ve learned that even looking into a church for 2-3 years is not enough time.
Also, I know I posted about returning to the Church. I just watched a good live stream on the Reason and Theology youtube channel. They had a former Russian Orthodox Old Believer talk about his journey to Eastern Catholicism. And a lot of what he said resonated and made sense. I am looking for a link but they have not uploaded the live stream as a re-playable video yet.
Also, I know I posted about returning to the Church. I just watched a good live stream on the Reason and Theology youtube channel. They had a former Russian Orthodox Old Believer talk about his journey to Eastern Catholicism. And a lot of what he said resonated and made sense. I am looking for a link but they have not uploaded the live stream as a re-playable video yet.
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Mountie
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I love this comment. There are two ways to look at Vatican II. We can use a hermeneutic of discontinuity, where we view the developments as a break with the past, or with a hermeneutic of continuity, where we view the developments as authentic and compatible with the past. Both views have been espoused, but I would argue that the hermeneutic of continuity is the correct way to look at Vatican II. It was such a beautiful council with a rich theology. The problem is that many of the documents use language that could be considered vague and broad. This vagueness leads to misunderstandings or “loopholes” that people abuse. If we look at the council in light of Church tradition, then I think the picture becomes clearer. Probably entirely irrelevant to this nearly month old post, but your comment resulted in that spark, so I had to share
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adamhovey1988
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I think Eastern Catholics have a special place in the Church. I love the fact that they can witness to groups like The Oriental and Eastern Orthodox, they can show them, that you can have the things you love, and still be in Union with the pope of Rome. I was actually talking to some of my Melkite friends, and they call themselves Orthodox, in communion with Rome. And with the very fortunate scaling back of latinisation, I think that makes it much easier. I don’t have a problem with my venerable Latin tradition, but I feel like Eastern Catholics are the bridge of unity between east and west. Now, there are some Orthodox that are very ecumenical with Catholics, and God bless them, but I would like it more if they were Catholic. I know I’ve mentioned a few times, that I had a college professor that is an Orthodox priest, and that opened a lot of conversation. We had a discussion about the Dormition / Assumption (about Our Lady dying, and I told him personally I believe she did) and I told him why it was intentionally left vague when it was defined, and he said he agrees with that with Catholics. I think that both sides, Catholic and Orthodox, need to try to
End this split between us.
End this split between us.
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ziapueblo
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As a former Byzantine Catholic, I’ve always felt that the Melkites are leading the way for communion between both Churches.
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ChickenFingers
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Are you Latin rite now or did you become Orthodox?
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ziapueblo
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Born and raised in the Latin Church. Studied and was shoulder deep in RC apologetics for close to 15 years (started when I was about 20 years old) before I discovered the Byzantine Catholic Church. Was in the Byzantine Catholic Church for about 7 years and am now Orthodox.
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ChickenFingers
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Why did you convert to Orthodoxy? Ever think about going back to Catholicism?
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ziapueblo
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There are many reasons. Mainly, because Rome has changed so much. It don’t see that it resembles the ancient church at all. But also, as I dove deeper into learning about the East, the more I fell in love with her theology, spirituality and liturgical life. I wasn’t going to be one of those Roman Catholics who attended a Byzantine Catholic Church because it had a more “reverent Mass,” so I went “native.” I came to a crossroads. I could either live fully, as best as I could, as an Eastern Catholic in communion with Rome or become Orthodox. As a Byzantine Catholic I celebrated St Gregory Palamas’ feast day on the second Sunday of Great Lent, St Photios is venerated in the Melkite Greek Catholic Church:
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(From the Melkite Horologion)
I know many Roman Catholics both personally and on this forum who despise both of the above Saints, yet I venerated them along with other Byzantine Catholics. I went Orthodox.
I don’t. Although, I do have a great fondness for the Catholic Church. It’s where I received the sacraments 3/4 of my life. I believe that both Churches are “the Church.” We unfortunately are not in full communion.
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ChickenFingers
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Thanks for sharing! Honestly a lot of the discourse among Latin Rite Catholics can be very toxic right now. The Eastern Churches seem to offer a good respite to this and I hope more Latin Rite Catholics who are discouraged look into their own Eastern Churches. Idk If I will venture back to Rome from Orthodoxy, but I do know that if it happens it has to be in a parish with the Divine Liturgy. Yes the TLM is beautiful, but man does the Divine Liturgy really change you.
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