Orthodox to Eastern Catholic converts

[Cecilianus]

I was baptized non-denominational protestant, but a year ago, I delved into the Russian Orthodox Church, and I’m now looking towards Roman Catholicism.

The biggest things are that of culture. I’m a German, very proud of my heritage, and entering a church that focuses entirely on Russian and Greek culture, worship, and saints is rather…interesting for me, to say the least. I feel like a minority, and I am also having an extremely difficult time accepting a faith that has nothing to do with the faith that I grew up around. (Even though I was baptized a “heathen,” basically, I was born and raised, and spent a good portion of my life, in west-southwest Germany, which has quite a large catholic population and legacy, especially my hometown).

So in short, perhaps it’s hard for me to explain, but it’s like being the only black person in a room full of whites (not trying to be offensive), if that makes a good analogy. Not unwelcome, but just very alone.

Worship, as well, is something I’m not accustomed to. I’m used to the congregation singing hymns as well as a choir, instead of just the choir solely, the absence of a pipe organ, even church architecture. It’s so hard to explain, but I just can’t change from what I was born around

Speaking of which, I’ve got a minor question: Being that I never fully researched catholicism in the way that I researched eastern orthodoxy, I know there are differences in practice between the churches, but what are some of the main ones?

Regards,

Erich

To answer your question:

Strictly speaking, none, since the Eastern Catholics practice the Faith in the same way as the Orthodox in schism from Rome do, though unfortunately occasionally not as well (my parish, which is Ukrainian, doesn’t have Vespers on Saturday night or the Akathist on Thursday night, though there are churches - such as St. Cyril and Methodius Russian Catholic Church in Denver - which do).

The Latin practice is a bit different - fasting is a lot less rigorous (mandatory abstinence on Fridays only, and fish and dairy products are typically thought of as penitential food items rather than things that themselves must be abstained from), the iconastasis in front of the altar is replaced with an elaborate reredo (typically with either statues or beautiful paintings in perspective) behind the altar; holy water and genuflections are more common, as is devotion to the Sacred Humanity of Jesus (especially His Sacred Heart); Italian and German saints tend to have greater following than Patristic ones (e.g. when a Latin Catholic says “St. Anthony” he means St. Anthony of Padua, not St. Anthony the Great - this REALLY bugs me); kneeling is the posture of prayer (standing doesn’t have the significance it does in the East - it’s actually pretty irreverent most of the time); Latins also tend have a much greater devotion to the Theotokos as Our Lady or our mother (I don’t think that many Eastern Christians would ever think of her as “Mom” the way Roman Catholics do).

The above is true at any parish that follows the traditional Tridentine Mass. Spiritually, Tridentine and Byzantine Catholicism are very close - they feel the same going from one to another (as I have to do every time I go to college from home - I don’t have both kinds of churches in one place ). The Novus Ordo version of Catholicism feels identical to Protestantism (or more Protestant than Protestantism, sometimes - converting to Catholicism in a Novus Ordo church was a step down from Lutheranism) - it ranges from being mildly Catholic to completely apostate.

 

[Madaglan]

Latins also tend have a much greater devotion to the Theotokos as Our Lady or our mother (I don’t think that many Eastern Christians would ever think of her as “Mom” the way Roman Catholics do).

Could you maybe explain this more? I was going to create a new thread on just this, but perhaps it can be dealt with here. I’ve heard this notion from my fellow Orthodox parishoners, who come from a varied Catholic and/or Protestant background, but I don’t understand the difference yet. I grew up Latin Catholic but I did not experience Marian devotion until I became involved in the Catholic Charismatic movement and later when I looked into traditional Catholicism. The Marian devotions were new to me. When I started attending a Ruthenian Catholic parish, I did not notice any significant difference in Marian devotion. The priest spoke highly of Mary and how we ought to seek her intercession. Now, in attending an Orthodox parish, I’m hearing that the Catholics make Mary out to be almost a 4th person of the Trinity, and I’m not sure why exactly they think this. Our priest recently during the Feast of the Protection spoke of Mary as our Mother, and given what the Divine Liturgy bespeaks of her (more honorable than the Cherubim…true Theotokos we magnify you), I would think that Byzantine Christians have an equally strong devotion towards her.

Any ideas?

 

[Cecilianus]

Could you maybe explain this more? I was going to create a new thread on just this, but perhaps it can be dealt with here. I’ve heard this notion from my fellow Orthodox parishoners, who come from a varied Catholic and/or Protestant background, but I don’t understand the difference yet. I grew up Latin Catholic but I did not experience Marian devotion until I became involved in the Catholic Charismatic movement and later when I looked into traditional Catholicism. The Marian devotions were new to me. When I started attending a Ruthenian Catholic parish, I did not notice any significant difference in Marian devotion. The priest spoke highly of Mary and how we ought to seek her intercession. Now, in attending an Orthodox parish, I’m hearing that the Catholics make Mary out to be almost a 4th person of the Trinity, and I’m not sure why exactly they think this. Our priest recently during the Feast of the Protection spoke of Mary as our Mother, and given what the Divine Liturgy bespeaks of her (more honorable than the Cherubim…true Theotokos we magnify you), I would think that Byzantine Christians have an equally strong devotion towards her.

Any ideas?

First of all, we don’t make Mary a 4th person of the Trinity; that’s a Protestant slur (applicable against either Catholics or Orthodox, although there are many more Catholics in Protestant countries) which stems from their repugnance at the Communion of Saints. A strict distinction is made between latria, or adoration of God, and hyperdulia - exaltation and veneration of Mary as “more honorable than the Cherubim, and in glory beyond all compare than the Seraphim”.

Roman Catholics tend to think of Mary as they would their own, biological mother - you will sometimes see people wearing T-shirts with a picture of a Rosary and the words “I love Mom”. Byzantine Christians (Catholic and Orthodox) have an equally strong devotion to her, but with more of an emphasis on the divinity of her Son rather than His humanity (since all devotion to Our Lady is ultimately devotion to Christ, the difference in devotions lies in the complementary approaches to Christology taken by the different branches of the Church).

Roman Catholic prayer life usually centers around the Rosary, since we turn to Mary as our mother for graces - being maternal, she will not deny us graces in abundance, and being an obedient Son, Jesus will not deny His mother. The basic, theological reason for this is the typology of Mary as Queen Mother of the new Kingdom of Israel (the Church).

Note that this does not in any way try to circumvent God’s will in any way by getting Mary to “force his hand”; Christ gave us a Mother to lavish graces on us lovingly because of His love for us, and the natural human need for both parents. Prayer to Our Lady as our mother was ordained by Him, when He said to St. John, “Behold your mother”.

Byzantine prayer life by contrast usually centers around the Jesus prayer, and the Redemption. This is not because Byzantine Christians do not give Mary veneration as the Mother of God above all the other saints, “the glory of our race” (to quote a prayer Marduk may be more likely to be familiar with), but because theological thought is usually phrased in less familial imagery.

I may be wrong about Byzantine prayer life - my own parish prays the Rosary before Liturgy (something which shouldn’t be repugnant to the Orthodox; it was highly praised by St. Seraphim of Sarov), but I don’t think this is typical. There is a stereotype (probably originated by Protestants trying to show that Orthodoxy is Protestant at heart) that the Orthodox have less of a devotion to Mary than Roman Catholics do. I simply think that the emphasis is shifted - Roman Catholics have a spirituality centered on the typology of Mary as Queen Mother, while Byzantine Christians have a spirituality centered on the Christology of Mary as Theotokos. I strive to practice both, as complementary expressions of one Faith. (I don’t strive very well, however.)

 

[trophybearer]

Could you maybe explain this more? I was going to create a new thread on just this, but perhaps it can be dealt with here. I’ve heard this notion from my fellow Orthodox parishoners, who come from a varied Catholic and/or Protestant background, but I don’t understand the difference yet. I grew up Latin Catholic but I did not experience Marian devotion until I became involved in the Catholic Charismatic movement and later when I looked into traditional Catholicism. The Marian devotions were new to me. When I started attending a Ruthenian Catholic parish, I did not notice any significant difference in Marian devotion. The priest spoke highly of Mary and how we ought to seek her intercession. Now, in attending an Orthodox parish, I’m hearing that the Catholics make Mary out to be almost a 4th person of the Trinity, and I’m not sure why exactly they think this. Our priest recently during the Feast of the Protection spoke of Mary as our Mother, and given what the Divine Liturgy bespeaks of her (more honorable than the Cherubim…true Theotokos we magnify you), I would think that Byzantine Christians have an equally strong devotion towards her.

Any ideas?

They sound like they have an axe to grind. There is no difference between the attitudes of Catholics and Orthodox toward the Mother of God. In saying that, I’m leaving out the “Co-redemptorix” types. The Mother of God is mentioned way more often in the Divine Liturgy than in the current Mass and no one has any reason to accuse Catholics of making the Mother of God the “fourth Person of the Trinity”. Given the veneration of the Theotokos in the Orthodox Church, such an accusation is almost certainly reactionary and unfair.

 

[Mickey]

In saying that, I’m leaving out the “Co-redemptorix” types.

I think the “co-redeemer” language is the reason for concern amongst some Orthodox.

 

[ziapueblo]

I know that many Roman Catholics are tired of the Novus Ordo Mass. The post Vatican II Mass lacks the mystical majesty of the TLM, which had greater “links” to an Orthodox sensibility. Just look at how “Protestant” the Novus Ordo Mass has become! Eucharistic ministers and women distributing communion–and they are not dressed in vestments; bad liturgical hymns with secular overtones, such as ‘On Eagles Wings.’ There’s communion-in-hand, the lack of incense in most RC parishes, the redesign of churches–the destruction of high altars and the removal of sacred art to appear more “modern.” I could go on and on. But check out Orthodox Answers and tap into the ICON radio shows and there you will hear interviews with former Roman Catholics who switched to Orthodoxy because they saw Catholicism as becoming Protestant, with rock guitar Masses, as well as the things I have mentioned above. Until the Catholic Church rejects Vatican II, Orthodoxy will continue to win over Catholics who have had enough of the pedestrian, bland new Mass.

Greetings brother Judefrancis,

I’m not sure if “rejecting Vatican II” is the answer. Sacrosanctum Concilium is one of the most important documents of the Council. The problem is that this document is one in which has not been understood and has produced confusion. Not because Sacrosanctum Concilium has been fulfilled, but because is has been misinterpreted.

 

[Addai]

I think the “co-redeemer” language is the reason for concern amongst some Orthodox.

the term scares them but they essentially believe the concept (from what I’ve ready concerning what Catholics mean by it.) The first two points of this article would cover it.

1. Mary is the greatest woman who ever lived. (This point raises the issue, Theotokos plays a role in our salvation by providing for the Incarnation that made it all possible)
2. Mary is our model for Christian service. (This point in passing mentions that she freely chose to be the Theotokos at the Annunciation)

protomartyr.org/mary.html

 

[Aramis]

the term scares them but they essentially believe the concept (from what I’ve ready concerning what Catholics mean by it.) The first two points of this article would cover it.

The problem is, however, that the term co-redemptrix is misleading, and not well catechized… The doctrine is sound, but the title and terminology it is expressed in is problematic.

 

[Mickey]

The problem is, however, that the term co-redemptrix is misleading, and not well catechized… The doctrine is sound, but the title and terminology it is expressed in is problematic.

Is Our Lady as “co-reedemer” now considered to be a doctrine of the RCC?

 

[Addai]

The problem is, however, that the term co-redemptrix is misleading, and not well catechized… The doctrine is sound, but the title and terminology it is expressed in is problematic.

Oh I agree! It sounds like a synonym for parallel or coequal savior. I do see parallels with its controversy and with the Theotokos controversy of the 5th century. Both were exaggerated sounding titles (that scared many people of the time) but were given to support a major doctrine.

Is Our Lady as “co-reedemer” now considered to be a doctrine of the RCC?

It’s not official dogma, just a popular folk practice or Theologumen. But there’s enough boosters of it to give us non-Catholics the wrong idea and think its official when writing about “differences with Catholicism”.

 

[Aramis]

Is Our Lady as “co-reedemer” now considered to be a doctrine of the RCC?

The role of Mary expressed therein is in fact doctrine. And it matches closely to EO doctrine on the Theotokos.

The term co-redeemer, however…

 

[Cecilianus]

The problem is, however, that the term co-redemptrix is misleading, and not well catechized… The doctrine is sound, but the title and terminology it is expressed in is problematic.

The impression you first get when you encounter that teaching (e.g., in St. Louis de Montfort) sounds quite shocking when you first read it - you don’t understand it until a second time reading it through, when you grasp the Christological foundations underneath it.

 

[Madaglan]

Roman Catholics tend to think of Mary as they would their own, biological mother - you will sometimes see people wearing T-shirts with a picture of a Rosary and the words “I love Mom”. Byzantine Christians (Catholic and Orthodox) have an equally strong devotion to her, but with more of an emphasis on the divinity of her Son rather than His humanity (since all devotion to Our Lady is ultimately devotion to Christ, the difference in devotions lies in the complementary approaches to Christology taken by the different branches of the Church).

I wonder if this emphasis on Mary as **biological **“mom” is found more so in southern Catholic countries and those countries evangelized through them (e.g. Italy, Spain, Central and South America, etc.) than in Northern Catholic lands, such as Ireland.