Orthodox View of the Immaculate Conception

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But baptism is necessary as a precondition for living in communion with the church and partaking in the sacraments, so you don’t need to believe in Original Sin like the Catholics do in order to believe that baptism is necessary. That is a different issue. Jesus Christ said that unless you eat his body and drink his blood you have no life in you. We certainly believe that in the Orthodox Church, even if we have different ideas of how the fall of Adam and Eve affects us.
 
I have posted several times now asking the Orthodox if all of us are conceived as saints, full of grace and in full communion with the divine life of the Trinity…so far there has been no response. I have demonstrated from our Catechism that Catholics do NOT believe that we personally inherit Adam’s guilt…yet that has also been ignored even though I have referenced it multiple times in this thread.
When you state that we are all immaculately conceived, this suggests to Catholics that you believe we are all conceived as saints, and thus baptism would be rendered useless. Original sin refers primarily to the fact that we are conceived without sanctifying grace; that is, without the indwelling of the divine life of the Trinity within our souls. At baptism we return to our “pre-fallen” state as we “put on Christ” and “partake of the divine nature”. Our Lady simply received these graces from the first moment of her conception.
  1. Do the Orthodox believe that we are all conceived full of divine life
Of course! The God’s breath was blown into Adam and then he became a living human being, that divine breath is something every human being is created/conceived with - human life isn’t possible without it. Nothing in creation can exist or continue to exist without God’s Grace.
  • that is, as saints?
NO! On what basis are you jumping to that conclusion?
If so, what is the point of baptism?
Baptism is first and foremost the initiation rite into the Church, the Kingdom of God. To be Baptized is to obey and follow the example of Jesus Christ. Lastly, for anyone who has sinned (an older child or an adult convert to Christianity), it’s also a forgives of all sin.
  1. It is clear in Orthodox liturgy that Mary and John are honored as saints from the first moments of their conception…
On what basis do you draw this conclusion?
if the rest of us are not conceived as saints, and are in fact in need of baptism, does that not suggest that Mary and John received these graces earlier than the rest of us and were thus, in some sense, special?
Where do you get the idea that Mary wasn’t in need of baptism? Baptism is the door into the Church established by her Son and it’s only after Baptism that a Christian can receive the Eucharist and without the Eucharist “you have no LIFE in you” (John 6).

Surely, if for no other reason than Obedience to Jesus Christ - necessary for her to remain to be without sin, Catholics must believe Mary was baptized!?!

Where are you getting the idea that Mary & John’s conceptions were somehow special? Their lives, through their choices, were special, but their conceptions were the same as ours.
I have spoken to Orthodox “in real life” who agree that Mary was indeed special in that she received the full graces of baptism at her conception…but on this thread it seems the Orthodox maintain we are all conceived as saints, which would suggest that baptism adds nothing of value. I don’t believe this is authentic Orthodox
Certainly there is nothing in Scripture or the Fathers that suggests we, in a fallen world, are conceived as saints in full communion with the Blessed Trinity. Baptism was instituted to reincorporate us into the divine life.
I’ve NEVER heard of any Orthodox Christian claiming that any human being is conceived as a Saint on here or anywhere. Do you think it’s possible that you’re coming to that conclusion by misunderstanding what is being said?

Mary was indeed special!!! But not because she was conceived any differently than us, but because she, a human being like us, unlike us chose in each moment of her life to Not sin…Ever.

Lol, please refer any Orthodox Christian, who tells you they personally believe Mary was conceived uniquely and with baptismal grace, back to their spiritual father so he can help guide them to the Orthodox belief.
 
Lol, please refer any Orthodox Christian
I’m content for this thread you understand Baptism is for remission of sin per the Creed. You seem to minimize the “remission of sin” aspect.

Christ was free from all sin, from “original sin” as well as from all “personal sin”. Adam and Eve’s changed nature is transmitted to our posterity, not by imitation. There would be no need for Christs redemption otherwise and we would still be under the old law. The Son of God became man in order to redeem men. Fallen man cannot redeem himself.👍
 
Well hello. Seems like I haven’t seen you in a long time. :cool:
Hi Peter! I lurk way more than I post, both here and at OC.net. When I became Orthodox I made a conscious decision not to get too deep into apologetics. With posts by such erudite scholars on both sides of the divide, it doesn’t look like I’m needed anyway :cool:
 
IgnatianPhilo;12562495]The immaculate conception doctrine says Mary was preserved of the stain of original sin right?
In my mind Jesus had to fully assume what we are in order to heal us, our fallen nature totally in order to show that we could be healed. This is what I find in meditating on the incarnation and listening to various priests and Orthodox speak on what Christ’s incarnation means.
Of course, i do believe it is not taught that we inherit Adam’s guilt, **rather his nature. **
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned–

Is it safe to admit that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parent…and to see Jesus as the source of grace and Adam as the source of sin? Regarding original sin the CC seems to use language similar to yours.

The CC admits that original sin is a mystery that cannot be fully understood:

CCC

“Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state. It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called “sin” only in an analogical sense: it is a sin “contracted” and not “committed” - a state and not an act.”
 
For anybody truly curious, read Bulgakov’s analysis of the immaculate conception in The Burning Bush.
 
Of course! The God’s breath was blown into Adam and then he became a living human being, that divine breath is something every human being is created/conceived with - human life isn’t possible without it. Nothing in creation can exist or continue to exist without God’s Grace.

NO! On what basis are you jumping to that conclusion?

Baptism is first and foremost the initiation rite into the Church, the Kingdom of God. To be Baptized is to obey and follow the example of Jesus Christ. Lastly, for anyone who has sinned (an older child or an adult convert to Christianity), it’s also a forgives of all sin.

On what basis do you draw this conclusion?

Where do you get the idea that Mary wasn’t in need of baptism? Baptism is the door into the Church established by her Son and it’s only after Baptism that a Christian can receive the Eucharist and without the Eucharist “you have no LIFE in you” (John 6).

Surely, if for no other reason than Obedience to Jesus Christ - necessary for her to remain to be without sin, Catholics must believe Mary was baptized!?!

Where are you getting the idea that Mary & John’s conceptions were somehow special? Their lives, through their choices, were special, but their conceptions were the same as ours.

I’ve NEVER heard of any Orthodox Christian claiming that any human being is conceived as a Saint on here or anywhere. Do you think it’s possible that you’re coming to that conclusion by misunderstanding what is being said?

Mary was indeed special!!! But not because she was conceived any differently than us, but because she, a human being like us, unlike us chose in each moment of her life to Not sin…Ever.

Lol, please refer any Orthodox Christian, who tells you they personally believe Mary was conceived uniquely and with baptismal grace, back to their spiritual father so he can help guide them to the Orthodox belief.
We can still exist without God’s grace. People in mortal sin and hell still exist.

Baptism gets rid of original sin and temporal and eternal punishment for sin, as well as put sanctifying grace in the soul but if Mary was always in sanctifying grace then

"The traditional translation, “full of grace,” is better than the one found in many recent versions of the New Testament, which give something along the lines of “highly favored daughter.” Mary was indeed a highly favored daughter of God, but the Greek implies more than that (and it never mentions the word for “daughter”). The grace given to Mary is at once permanent and of a unique kind.Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle of charitoo, meaning “to fill or endow with grace.” Since this term is in the perfect tense, it indicates that Mary was graced in the past but with continuing effects in the present. So, the grace Mary enjoyed was not a result of the angel’s visit. In fact, Catholics hold, it extended over the whole of her life, from conception onward. She was in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence. "

catholic.com/tracts/immaculate-conception-and-assumption
 
In Bulgakov’s “The Burning Bush” Chapter II he states [english translation].
In its countless divine services dedicated to the Mother of God, the Holy Orthodox Church firmly and clearly teaches the absolute sinlessness of Mary in her birth, her holy childhood and adolescence, in the Annunciation, in the birth of her Son and throughout her entire life. We shall pause at only the most important dogmatic witnesses borrowed from the services of Theotokos feasts. As is evident from these witnesses, the Most Holy Virgin is called in her very birth “Holy of Holies,” “living heaven,” “temple of all kings and thrones,” “sole immaculate one,” “the true temple pure from infancy on,” “hostile to the course of sin,” etc. The question arises: is the idea of any sort of assault of sin, which even some fathers of the church, and with them other orthodox theologians, allow, compatible with this veneration? Obviously not. The Mother of God was sinless, not a single attack of sin approached her most pure soul, the bearer of perfect virginity. But in that case is she not made equal “to the one sinless” Lord Jesus? No, and therein is the whole point. Sinlessness belongs in a unique and exclusive sense to the Son of God conceived without seed from a virgin who had never known a man, in that He was a stranger not only to every personal sin but also to original sin. The latter had absolutely no power over the new Adam. … It is quite the opposite in the case of the Most Pure and Immaculate One: in her, original sin preserved its entire power with all its fatal consequences–weakness and mortality of the body (for death is only the final revelation of this weakness). The Theotokos died a natural death in fulfilment of the natural law, which she bore in her human nature. Death was defeated only by the salvific power of Christ’s resurrection and was ultimately annulled by it. The Lord Jesus is in this sense the Saviour for the entire human race, and in it of His mother as well.
In as much as sin through the paralysis of human freedom engenders personal sinfulness, this latter can be weakened to a minimum and even brought down to the condition of full potentiality: posse non peccare (though before redemption and before baptism the condition of non posse peccare cannot be reached). To be sure, such a maximum achievement is unthinkable for fallen humanity without the help of Divine grace which, however, only assists freedom and does not compel it. In other words, when original sin as infirmity is kept in force, personal freedom from sins or personal sinlessness can be realized by the grace of God. In harmony with the firm and clear consciousness of the Church, John the Forerunner already approaches such personal sinlessness. The most holy Virgin Mary, the all-pure and all-immaculate, possesses such sinlessness. Only by virtue of this sinlessness was she able to say with her entire will, with her whole undivided essence, behold the handmaid of the Lord, to speak so that the answer to this full self-giving to God was the descent of the Holy Spirit and the seedless conception of the Lord Jesus Christ. The smallest sin in the past or the present would have broken the integrity of this self-giving and the power of this expression. This word, decisive for the whole human race and the entire world, was the expression not of a given moment only, but came out of the depths of Mary’s unblemished being. It was the work and the sum of her life. The inadmissibility of personal sin in the Virgin Mary thus becomes axiomatically trustworthy provided we understand what kind of answer was demanded here of Mary. This was not the particular agreement of her will to a particular action, relating only to a given moment of life; no, this was the self-determination of her entire being.
I’m inclined to think its completely acceptable, I also think he addressed a few issues which we see here and through history, baptism, mans fallen nature as opposed to dualism, and the understanding of the scripture in relation to original sin and actual sin. These issues don’t only exist in Orthodoxy but the Church.
 
Hi Peter!
🙂
I lurk way more than I post, both here and at OC.net.
Alrightee. For myself I have managed to do something I’ve been trying to do for a few years: in the last three months or so I have at long last cut down the amount of time I spend on net-forums (whether Catholic, Orthodox, or miscellaneous :cool:) to what could be called a reasonable amount. (Well, not counting the last few days when I’ve been “pigging out” a bit on forums.)
 
So is the Immaculate Conception a valid orthodox doctrine natural of divine revelation?
 
The Immaculate Conception is not Orthodox doctrine. It is a Catholic doctrine.
 
The Immaculate Conception is not Orthodox doctrine. It is a Catholic doctrine.
Hi ENN,

How does it differ from Coptic Orthodox teaching on the Holiness of the Blessed Virgin Mary? Was she not in communion with God from conception? That’s what the Catholic Church means by being without Original Sin from conception.

In the eyes of the Coptic Orthodox, just what does baptism do?

peace
steve
 
Hello, thenobes. We, like all Orthodox Christians, do not believe that St. Mary was immaculately conceived. She too inherited the fallen nature common to all people that was taken and redeemed by our lord Jesus Christ at his incarnation in her holy womb.

Baptism is necessary for salvation. Our Lord Jesus Christ says this himself in the Gospel of our father St. Mark (chapter 16). “He who believes and is baptized will be saved”.
 
Hello, thenobes. We, like all Orthodox Christians, do not believe that St. Mary was immaculately conceived. She too inherited the fallen nature common to all people that was taken and redeemed by our lord Jesus Christ at his incarnation in her holy womb.

Baptism is necessary for salvation. Our Lord Jesus Christ says this himself in the Gospel of our father St. Mark (chapter 16). “He who believes and is baptized will be saved”.
Nektarios Lady has been arguing strenuously in favor of the Orthodox position that Mary did not inherit the fallen nature. If I understand her position correctly, no one did.

How would you respond to her?
 
WhoaHoho! Is this your personal opinion or Catholic Church teaching that any person or place or state, once created, can continue to exist withOUT God’s Grace to sustain him/her/it?
We can still exist without God’s grace. People in mortal sin and hell still exist.
The longer I’ve been in this forum, the more & more I come to realize Catholic Christianity has less & less & less in common with Orthodox Christianity than I’d imagined. With this comment, I’m even wondering if it’s even in the religion category. God’s grace isn’t necessary to sustain creation - the very idea is Semi-Atheistic!!!
 
Nektarios Lady has been arguing strenuously in favor of the Orthodox position that Mary did not inherit the fallen nature. If I understand her position correctly, no one did.

How would you respond to her?
Lol Randy, love to twist words. I don’t know how to report your outright lie about me, so I’ll will block you so at least I don’t have to be troubled by reading your lies.

I’ve repeatedly said that Mary had the same conception as everyone else and that No One is personally responsible for another’s sin. We are Not born guilty of Adam & Eve’s sin, but we are all born with the consequences of that sin.

If you’re not going to read what someone actually writes and you’re just going to falsely accuse people then you should probably so something else with your time.
 
WhoaHoho! Is this your personal opinion or Catholic Church teaching that any person or place or state, once created, can continue to exist withOUT God’s Grace to sustain him/her/it?
When people commit mortal sin, they are no longer in a state of grace. Do they suddenly cease to exist? No. God does hold all things together by His power, but not everyone is in His Grace at all times.
The longer I’ve been in this forum, the more & more I come to realize Catholic Christianity has less & less & less in common with Orthodox Christianity than I’d imagined. With this comment, I’m even wondering if it’s even in the religion category. God’s grace isn’t necessary to sustain creation - the very idea is Semi-Atheistic!!!
Could it be that you don’t actually understand much of what is being discussed?

If you really desire to help Catholics see the error of their ways, maybe you should read a few Catholic books in order to understand what we believe better. That way, you’ll be well positioned to explain why what we actually believe is wrong instead of arguing against what you only think we believe.
 
Lol Randy, love to twist words.
Why do you accuse me of intentionally twisting your words? Do you think that I’m actually sitting at my keyboard trying to figure out how to misrepresent your views? Aren’t you now bearing false witness against me?
I’ve repeatedly said that Mary had the same conception as everyone else and that No One is personally responsible for another’s sin. We are Not born guilty of Adam & Eve’s sin, but we are all born with the consequences of that sin.
Which, I believe, is EXACTLY what I said. You believe that there are consequences of the fall, but if I understand past posts, you do not believe that we actually have a fallen nature.

Is this incorrect? If so, please clarify the distinctions you make between having a fallen nature and living with the consequences of Adam’s fall.
If you’re not going to read what someone actually writes and you’re just going to falsely accuse people then you should probably so something else with your time.
:rolleyes:
 
When people commit mortal sin, they are no longer in a state of grace. Do they suddenly cease to exist? No. God does hold all things together by His power, but not everyone is in His Grace at all times.
You’re putting a spin on what your fellow Catholic posted.
Could it be that you don’t actually understand much of what is being discussed?
Before I had the chance to block you, you decide to further sin against me. In addition to lying about me earlier, now you’ve chosen to question my ability to understand - my intelligence. You’re on a role today for destroying positive Orthodox/Catholic relations on an individual level. Great job, Randy. Give yourself a pat on the back, your really good at it!

Your blocked, but you should be reported.
 
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