Orthodox View of the Primacy of Peter

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Did any Orthodox patriarch try to claim jurisdiction over Rome? I thought they were more of a “you do your thing, we’ll do ours” type of deal… (Except for councils)
dvdjs gave a good answer. There are usually no issues concerning established jurisdictions, the Eastern bishops understand that no bishop is above any other bishop. The issue comes when there is a new jurisdiction and there is no clear ownership. Case in point, North America (and South, and Australia, etc., let’s focus on NA). Every jurisdiction is making a claim because the ownership of this jurisdiction was never established. Though Russia made the first claim, it was compromised by the Revolution and the onset of Communism. Also given that Russia never really established a nationwide jurisdiction at the time before immigrants who belong to other jurisdictions came over and settled in areas where there was no Orthodox church of any jurisdiction.
 
Well… we can start with Jesus saying; “thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Church.” (Matt. 16:18)

Jesus did not say, “upon THESE rocks”, meaning the Twelve.
This would make sense, if Jesus only had one disciple, Peter. he had 12, and he sent them ALL out to start his Church. This idea that Andrew’s or Thomas’ or Peter’s church is errant because it’s not in conformity with one or more of the others is foolish. These are the divisions that MEN create. God works with you where you are. He doesn’t refuse you or love you or save you less, because you followed Andrew’s Church and not Peter’s. We all need to get over this silliness.
 
Well… we can start with Jesus saying; “thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Church.” (Matt. 16:18)

Jesus did not say, “upon THESE rocks”, meaning the Twelve.

You may look at John 21:15-17, where Jesus specifically speaks to Peter, commanding him to:
  1. “feed My lambs”
  2. “tend My sheep”
  3. “feed My sheep”
Jesus clearly left Peter in charge.

I would reccomend John Salza’s, “The Biblical Basis for the Papacy”. There is very good Petrine apologetics in that book. One of the first “Catholic” books I ever bought. Worth every penny.
First, all the Apostles were promised thrones. It wasn’t only Peter who had a throne.

Second, while there is no doubt that Peter has a leadership role with the Apostles, there is no clear scriptural basis regarding the Roman Catholic Claim about Papal authority. Even if we are to assume that all the other Apostles needed to take orders from Peter, again there is nothing in Scripture that says Peter passed on such an authority to anyone else.
 
First, all the Apostles were promised thrones. It wasn’t only Peter who had a throne.

Second, while there is no doubt that Peter has a leadership role with the Apostles, there is no clear scriptural basis regarding the Roman Catholic Claim about Papal authority. Even if we are to assume that all the other Apostles needed to take orders from Peter, again** there is nothing in Scripture **that says Peter passed on such an authority to anyone else.
Don’t both the RCC and OC believe in Sacred Tradition (e.g., laying of hands, passing authority)?

I personally was not brought up in that tradition, but isn’t that the whole point of Apostolic succession? Correct me if I’m wrong, and I’m probably missing something, but that was something the Protestant churches are said to be missing.
 
Don’t both the RCC and OC believe in Sacred Tradition (e.g., laying of hands, passing authority)?

I personally was not brought up in that tradition, but isn’t that the whole point of Apostolic succession? Correct me if I’m wrong, and I’m probably missing something, but that was something the Protestant churches are said to be missing.
But Sacred Tradition and Apostolic Succession doesn’t mean that people can just make a claim and appeal to it, and we’d take their word for it. Tradition should also show a consistency from day 1, which again is non-existent.

Also, don’t you think that if such an authority is such an important piece of the earthly Church, they would have mentioned it in a more clear way in Scripture?
 
But Sacred Tradition and Apostolic Succession doesn’t mean that people can just make a claim and appeal to it, and we’d take their word for it. Tradition should also show a consistency from day 1, which again is non-existent.

Also, don’t you think that if such an authority is such an important piece of the earthly Church, they would have mentioned it in a more clear way in Scripture?
You sure you’re not a sola scriptura Protestant? 😉

I’m just trying to see things from the opposite site (e.g., RCC/OC) and if Tradition is as essential as Scripture, then there’s no way to counter a claim made by the Church. Either authority passes on or it doesn’t.

I assumed the OC also believed in succession.
 
I am pretty sympathetic to the EO position, but that article is pretty ridiculous. I read the whole thing, and I came away with the impression of a road runner cartoon in which Wylie coyote falls into all of his own traps. The difference is that in the article there is no humor. The responses of his confessor and of catholic theologians was too unbelievable to be credible. It portrays all catholic theologians as being foolish, and having no real basis for what they believe.

I have met some catholic theologians, and they aren’t dumb. They have arguments for their position that make you think. I recommend you don’t use that article. After reading it I don’t trust a word of what the author says.
 
Did any Orthodox patriarch try to claim jurisdiction over Rome? I thought they were more of a “you do your thing, we’ll do ours” type of deal… (Except for councils)
Pre-Constantinople apostolic succession period the Church of Peter is under persecution by secular powers, thus the first 30+ popes were all martyred after St.Peter.
During this time we don’t hear of any disputes over the Popes authority. Only recognition of being “supreme”, “pre-eminent for all church’s to follow”, historical records of the early church Fathers record the apostolic succession of Peter in the Popes as revealing the true Church of Jesus Christ which all other church’s are to follow. We do not have apostolic succession recordings of all the other Church’s because these all fell in and out of heresy.

The Church of Rome is the only apostolic see that has never fallen into heresy to date.

Post-Constantinople we now have peace with the secular powers. History records when ever the Roman Emperor was Catholic and installed a patriarch in Constantinople there is unity with the Pope and peace among the apostolic sees (these defeated many Eastern heresies). When ever the Roman Emperor was a schismatic, pagan and or a drunkard and installed his Patriarch we have power struggles among the Church’s and it is here when the Patrirach’s of Constantinople used the Emperors influence to use councils to usurp the authority of existing apostolic sees.

Yes, these also pursued to be equal with the bishop of Rome (popes) and or exceed the authority of the Popes because Constantinople was the New Capital of Rome. Which is an argument come from men not from the divine authority given by Jesus Christ upon Peter.

For a Patriarch of Constantinople to seek to have equal authority (through a council) as the Pope of Rome reveals that the Emperors themselves and all the other Church’s recognized the divine authority placed upon Peter’s Chair in the Popes.

Both Catholic and schismatic Emperors sought approval of the popes to ratify a council’s findings. The Emperor’s did not seek the sole authority of the Patriarch’s of Constantinople. The political secular powers were introduced through the patriarch’s of Constantinople.

It is from this post Constantinople period we find the Orthodox still possessing the disposition from 1054 to reject or find reasons to be equal to what Jesus personally defined upon Peter’s Church which possesses the keys of the kingdom to excercise on “EARTH”. Whereby all apostolic successors have the authority to excercise the keys of the kingdom in their local church’s.

Jesus has established a distinct unity to His head through Peter and all the apostles. Apart from this unity with Peter who calls his brethren back fall into schism or reject the divine authority of Jesus Christ. Orthodox claim all apostolic successors are Peter. We agree all bishops are Peter in the local Church. Yet Peter himself in the bishop of Rome is the Rock which all bishops are united too.
 
Also, don’t you think that if such an authority is such an important piece of the earthly Church, they would have mentioned it in a more clear way in Scripture?
Quote from Jesus Christ to Peter;

Matthew 16:18-19 …You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of netherworld will not prevail against it. I will give you the Keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and what ever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

All the Emperors post constantinople recognized this divine authority given to Peter in the bishop’s of Rome. Why didn’t the patriarch’s of Constantinople from 1054?

John 21:15-22 Jesus singularly commissions Peter to feed His lamb, tend my sheep, feed His sheep. In conclusion Jesus commands Peter in vs. 22 to not have concern of the apostle who wishes to follow Jesus and Peter, Jesus states to Peter " what concern is it of yours", " if I want him to remain until I come"?** “You (Peter) follow me”.** paranthesis mine.

Scripture is never more clear here.
 
This is where nearly all other Christians, join the Orthodox in rejecting infallibility and primacy of the Pope

**Lutheran Book of Concord:

VI. The Council of Nice resolved that the bishop of Alexandria should administer the churches in the East, and the Roman bishop the suburban, i.e., those which were in the Roman provinces in the West. From this start by a human law, i.e. the resolution of the Council, the authority of the Roman bishop first arose. If the Roman bishop already had the superiority by divine law, it would not have been lawful for the Council to take any right from him and transfer it to the bishop of Alexandria; nay, all the bishops of the East ought perpetually to have sought ordination and confirmation from the bishop of Rome.

13] VII. Again the Council of Nice determined that bishops should be elected by their own churches, in the presence of some neighboring bishop or of several. 14] The same was observed [for a long time, not only in the East, but] also in the West and in the Latin churches, as Cyprian and Augustine testify. For Cyprian says in his fourth letter to Cornelius: Accordingly, as regards the divine observance and apostolic practice, you must diligently keep and practice what is also observed among us and in almost all the provinces, that for celebrating ordination properly, whatsoever bishops of the same province live nearest should come together with the people for whom a pastor is being appointed, and the bishop should be chosen in the presence of the people, who most fully know the life of each one, which we also have seen done among us at the ordination of our colleague Sabinus, that by the suffrage of the entire brotherhood, and by the judgment of the bishops who had assembled in their presence, the episcopate was conferred and hands laid on him.

15] Cyprian calls this custom a divine tradition and an apostolic observance, and affirms that it is observed in almost all the provinces.

Since, therefore, neither ordination nor confirmation was sought from a bishop of Rome in the greater part of the world in the Latin and Greek churches, it is sufficiently apparent that the churches did not then accord superiority and domination to the bishop of Rome.

16] Such superiority is impossible. For it is impossible for one bishop to be the overseer of the churches of the whole world, or for churches situated in the most distant lands to seek ordination [for all their ministers] from one. For it is manifest that the kingdom of Christ is scattered throughout the whole world; and to-day there are many churches in the East which do not seek ordination or confirmation from the Roman bishop [which have ministers ordained neither by the Pope nor his bishops]. Therefore, since such superiority [which the Pope, contrary to all Scripture, arrogates to himself] is impossible, and the churches in the greater part of the world have not acknowledged [nor made use of] it, it is sufficiently apparent that it was not instituted [by Christ, and does not spring from divine law].

17] VIII. Many ancient synods have been proclaimed and held in which the bishop of Rome did not preside; as that of Nice and most others. This, too, testifies that the Church did not then acknowledge the primacy or superiority of the bishop of Rome.

18] IX. Jerome says: If the question is concerning authority, the world is greater than the city. Wherever there has been a bishop, whether at Rome, or Eugubium, or Constantinople, or Rhegium, or Alexandria, he is of the same dignity and priesthood.

19] X. Gregory, writing to the patriarch at Alexandria, forbids that he be called universal bishop. And in the Records he says that in the Council of Chalcedon the primacy was offered to the bishop of Rome, but was not accepted.**
 
Quote from Jesus Christ to Peter;

Matthew 16:18-19 …You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of netherworld will not prevail against it. I will give you the Keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and what ever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

All the Emperors post constantinople recognized this divine authority given to Peter in the bishop’s of Rome. Why didn’t the patriarch’s of Constantinople from 1054?

John 21:15-22 Jesus singularly commissions Peter to feed His lamb, tend my sheep, feed His sheep. In conclusion Jesus commands Peter in vs. 22 to not have concern of the apostle who wishes to follow Jesus and Peter, Jesus states to Peter " what concern is it of yours", " if I want him to remain until I come"?** “You (Peter) follow me”.** paranthesis mine.

Scripture is never more clear here.
Read two chapters over in Matthew. Matthew 18, it is clear that the authority to bind and loose is given to ALL the Apostles.

Matthew 18:18
18 “Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

Here, Jesus is speaking to all his Apostles, not just Peter. And in the very next verse:

Matthew 18:19
19 “Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.

So the power of two is better than the power of one. Proof that one bishop is not above the multitude.
 
Read two chapters over in Matthew. Matthew 18, it is clear that the authority to bind and loose is given to ALL the Apostles.

Matthew 18:18
18 “Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

Here, Jesus is speaking to all his Apostles, not just Peter. And in the very next verse:

Matthew 18:19
19 “Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.

So the power of two is better than the power of one. Proof that one bishop is not above the multitude.
The keys were given to Peter alone. No early church fathers (as far as I know - correct me if I am wrong) suggested that the keys were also given to the other apostles as well. In the OT the key was given to the king’s prime minister while he was gone. The same applies to the King of kings; Peter was Jesus’ prime minister: “I will give him the key to the house of David–the highest position in the royal court. When he opens doors, no one will be able to close them; when he closes doors, no one will be able to open them.”
 
ConstantineG,

John Meyendorff is indeed a careful critic. However, maybe you should check out the following on the Papacy.

amazon.com/Studies-Early-Papacy-John-Chapman/dp/1475044909/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1372126922&sr=8-1&keywords=dom+chapman

I was curious if you could explain why and how the Early Councils referred to the church of Rome as the Head and Ruler of all the churches? When there was an attempt to attribute a great authority to Constantinople, Pope Leo responded is amazement at how the bishops could possibly think that Constantinople could take the place of Rome in universal primacy.

Philip the Legate of Rome, just before the Extract on the Acts of Session 3 in the Council of Ephesus offers thanksgiving to the Synod for agreeing with the doctrine propounded by Pope Celestine because by doing so they joined with the head of the whole faith, Peter himself. Philip expresses that Peter, the head of the apostles, continues to live and judge with the authority given to him in his lawful successors in Rome. What kind of purpose does this serve other than humiliation if such a thing was novel ?

I mean even Bishop Kallistos Ware recognizes that there is a universal primacy to the function of the bishop of Rome because of the principle of Petrinias, only he believes in a more reciprocal medium for that primacy.
 
…while there is no doubt that Peter has a leadership role with the Apostles, there is no clear scriptural basis regarding the Roman Catholic Claim about Papal authority. Even if we are to assume that all the other Apostles needed to take orders from Peter, again there is nothing in Scripture that says Peter passed on such an authority to anyone else.
The word “office” does. Officers occupy these offices, and when an officer dies, his term ends, or he is otherwise replaced… the man changes, but the “office” remains with ALL it’s authority. Some examples of this is the Office of the President of the United States. The Office of Prime Minister of Great Britain. The Office of the General Secretary of the United Nations. All of these offices had men ascend to them after the initial holder of said office vacated it.

Lets look at Acts 1:15-20

During those days Peter stood up in the midst of the brothers (there was a group of about one hundred and twenty persons in the one place). He said, "My brothers, the scripture had to be fulfilled which the holy Spirit spoke beforehand through the mouth of David, concerning Judas, who was the guide for those who arrested Jesus. He was numbered among us and was allotted a share in this ministry. He bought a parcel of land with the wages of his iniquity, and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle, and all his insides spilled out. This became known to everyone who lived in Jerusalem, so that the parcel of land was called in their language ‘Akeldama,’ that is, Field of Blood. For it is written in the Book of Psalms: ‘Let his encampment become desolate, and may no one dwell in it.’ And: ’May another take his office.'

Bold, underline, and italics are mine.

Here, Peter shows his leadership, AND the transfer of an Apostolic office.

You may say that this doesn’t apply to Peter, because he’s not talking about HIS office. But this establishes precedent, and since the Church needs a leader, why choose to be leaderless? I am certain that when Peter was martyred, Linus took his place as the Vicar of Christ.

Have a good night. I shall return tomorrow.
 
First, all the Apostles were promised thrones. It wasn’t only Peter who had a throne.

Second, while there is no doubt that Peter has a leadership role with the Apostles, there is no clear scriptural basis regarding the Roman Catholic Claim about Papal authority. Even if we are to assume that all the other Apostles needed to take orders from Peter, again there is nothing in Scripture that says Peter passed on such an authority to anyone else.
Even if you are right and Peter had no authority of the other apostles (doesn’t bother me) it still does not undermine the critical role Peter and his successors were to play in terms of the keys, and hell not prevailing.
 
Jurisdiction? No, not over Rome. But the EP did quash an established Partriarchate or two and assumed oversight. The process for gaining autocephaly was typically very messy. And the canons about primacy the barbarian lands are still to this day in dispute.

The matter of “you do your thing, we’ll do ours” is another story. The EP was often intrusive on matters of praxis. The Byzantinization of the Antiochian traditions is the starkest example. Another example: their disputations with local OOs led to a hardcore posture against azymes, which was then also turned toward the CC in a non-subtle way: desecration of the Eucharist. This intrusion led to the dispatch of papal delegates and the better known events of 1054.
You’re right, a lot of ecclesiastical abuses have occurred in the East as well as the West. The difference, for me at least, is that in the East abuses were never dogmatized. There is no dogmatic declaration in the East that the Patriarch of Constntinople can swoop down on a parish in, say, Indiana and oust their parish priest, for example. But Vatican I dogmatically gave just that power to the Bishop of Rome.
 
You’re right, a lot of ecclesiastical abuses have occurred in the East as well as the West. The difference, for me at least, is that in the East abuses were never dogmatized. There is no dogmatic declaration in the East that the Patriarch of Constntinople can swoop down on a parish in, say, Indiana and oust their parish priest, for example. But Vatican I dogmatically gave just that power to the Bishop of Rome.
The head of the entire Catholic Church church should have no authority outside of Rome?

Does the patriarch of each respective autocephalous Orthodox church possess that kind of authority over his church?
 
The keys were given to Peter alone. No early church fathers (as far as I know - correct me if I am wrong) suggested that the keys were also given to the other apostles as well. In the OT the key was given to the king’s prime minister while he was gone. The same applies to the King of kings; Peter was Jesus’ prime minister: “I will give him the key to the house of David–the highest position in the royal court. When he opens doors, no one will be able to close them; when he closes doors, no one will be able to open them.”
The keys meaning administrative authority is a stretch. The fact that they keys were given at the same time as the power of binding and loosing were given points to the fact that they are correlated. Keys open and close doors, thus binding and loosing. How do you let loose someone or something? You open the cage.
 
The head of the entire Catholic Church church should have no authority outside of Rome?

Does the patriarch of each respective autocephalous Orthodox church possess that kind of authority over his church?
No. The Patriarch is a bishop of their own diocese. They have the authority to depose priests in their diocese but not priests in other diocese.
 
Even if you are right and Peter had no authority of the other apostles (doesn’t bother me) it still does not undermine the critical role Peter and his successors were to play in terms of the keys, and hell not prevailing.
The Catholic claim is that the keys denote authority. If Peter did not have authority, then what else are the keys for?
 
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