Orthodox vs Byzantine Catholic veneration during Liturgy

[Sir_Thomas_More]

Well In a quest to obtain a Jordanville prayer book locally, I called a Russian Orthodox Church in Lorain, Ohio SS Peter and Paul and The Parish Priest said he did in fact have a copy but he had asked me to come in and attend a Pre-Sanctified Liturgy.
So I did, and long story short I enjoyed it very much and got a bunch of stuff along with my book at the generosity of the parish Priest and a Priest Monk. You can see the full story on ByzCath.org if you care and if it eventually gets posted. I have some questions on the different ways of veneration (crossing, bowing, number of bows etc…). The liturgy was very close except a very few tiny things, the things most noticeable to me are written below.

Now there are some differences that perhaps some people can help me out with on technique. Like for instance the deep bow. People would venerate the Icon on the Tripod and before they did they did three very deep bows while making the sign of the cross (not at the same time). The swept their hand on the ground as they did so. I just bow perpendicular at the waste, rise up, sign the cross (all this once) and then venerate the Icon. Some did as I did. Can someone explain the deep bow and when it is done in the Liturgy? When is that done as opposed to a short bow or no bow with the sign of the Cross? I also noticed that some (like locked on hottie who sat across from my pew, well she never actually sat…)made the sign of the cross at every Kyrie Eleison and others did not. Prostrations were the same as the Byzantine Liturgy. Though some in the Byzantine parishes bow and Cross themselves while being incensed and the Orthodox simply bowed. I knew to do that for some reason, must have been something I watched on a video even though at the BC Liturgy I bow and Cross.
I believe in “While in Rome do as the Romans do” this being a case of the opposite, and Id like to polish up my technique for both when I go back to the Orthodox Church and also when I am at my regular Byzantine Parishes.
Thanks for any help! Im hoping Hesychios will see this and chime in.

 

[5Loaves]

Well In a quest to obtain a Jordanville prayer book locally, I called a Russian Orthodox Church in Lorain, Ohio SS Peter and Paul and The Parish Priest said he did in fact have a copy but he had asked me to come in and attend a Pre-Sanctified Liturgy.
So I did, and long story short I enjoyed it very much and got a bunch of stuff along with my book at the generosity of the parish Priest and a Priest Monk.

What a nice story. I’m so glad they were so encouraging to you! And that you have a good bookstore close by to return to often.

Now there are some differences that perhaps some people can help me out with on technique. Like for instance the deep bow. People would venerate the Icon on the Tripod and before they did they did three very deep bows while making the sign of the cross (not at the same time). The swept their hand on the ground as they did so. I just bow perpendicular at the waste, rise up, sign the cross (all this once) and then venerate the Icon. Some did as I did. Can someone explain the deep bow and when it is done in the Liturgy? When is that done as opposed to a short bow or no bow with the sign of the Cross? I also noticed that some (like locked on hottie who sat across from my pew, well she never actually sat…)made the sign of the cross at every Kyrie Eleison and others did not. Prostrations were the same as the Byzantine Liturgy. Though some in the Byzantine parishes bow and Cross themselves while being incensed and the Orthodox simply bowed. I knew to do that for some reason, must have been something I watched on a video even though at the BC Liturgy I bow and Cross.
I believe in “While in Rome do as the Romans do” this being a case of the opposite, and Id like to polish up my technique for both when I go back to the Orthodox Church and also when I am at my regular Byzantine Parishes.
Thanks for any help! Im hoping Hesychios will see this and chime in.

The Jordanville prayer book (which I also like very much) has that section at the end about how to pray and cross ones self etc. I don’t have the book here to look at. He’s very absolute about when to cross yourself and when not to. And I’ve seen completely opposite instructions on other Orthodox sites. St Elias Ukranian Catholic Church on their stellar website has a section Church Etiquette ->The Sign of the Cross with their version of the rubrics for this. Welcome to the East ,LOL.

In my Russian EC parish we also touch the floor with the 2 fingers when venerating Holy Icons. During the Fast/Great Lent some do full prostration (X3) at these Icons when venerating. This is the same at the Russian OCA parish I go to. Also, during the mentioning of the Most Holy Trinity we touch the floor with the 2 fingers, especially I think during the Fast/Great Lent., as opposed to just a deep bow. Not everyone does this in either the EC nor the OCA parish but I’d say most. Also, at least deep bow or touch the floor with the Trisagion and at the end of the Holy Anaphora, some prostrate on Sundays. Week days we almost never have services, but there would be more options for prostrations.

Since reading that Jordanville section I stopped crossing myself when the priest makes the cross in blessing us,I only bow. Some of our parishioners cross themselves when incensed and some do not. At the Greek Orthodox Cathedral tonight I noticed that at least some people were crossing themselves when the priest made the sign of the cross blessing us, and at least some crossed themselves when he incensed them/us. It was very dark and I wasn’t really “checking it out”, just happened to notice some movement.

Were the crossings at the Kyrie Eleison during the litanies when the deacon crosses and bows after each petition or at another time (surely not at each of the 40 Kyrie Eleison in the Hours)? What I have seen most often in the litanies is that people will cross themselves when especailly joined to that petition.

Nice this parish has a hottie. The Orthodox parish I often visit also has several.

 

[Sir_Thomas_More]

What a nice story. I’m so glad they were so encouraging to you! And that you have a good bookstore close by to return to often.

The Jordanville prayer book (which I also like very much) has that section at the end about how to pray and cross ones self etc. I don’t have the book here to look at. He’s very absolute about when to cross yourself and when not to. And I’ve seen completely opposite instructions on other Orthodox sites. St Elias Ukranian Catholic Church on their stellar website has a section Church Etiquette ->The Sign of the Cross with their version of the rubrics for this. Welcome to the East ,LOL.

In my Russian EC parish we also touch the floor with the 2 fingers when venerating Holy Icons. During the Fast/Great Lent some do full prostration (X3) at these Icons when venerating. This is the same at the Russian OCA parish I go to. Also, during the mentioning of the Most Holy Trinity we touch the floor with the 2 fingers, especially I think during the Fast/Great Lent., as opposed to just a deep bow. Not everyone does this in either the EC nor the OCA parish but I’d say most. Also, at least deep bow or touch the floor with the Trisagion and at the end of the Holy Anaphora, some prostrate on Sundays. Week days we almost never have services, but there would be more options for prostrations.

Since reading that Jordanville section I stopped crossing myself when the priest makes the cross in blessing us,I only bow. Some of our parishioners cross themselves when incensed and some do not. At the Greek Orthodox Cathedral tonight I noticed that at least some people were crossing themselves when the priest made the sign of the cross blessing us, and at least some crossed themselves when he incensed them/us. It was very dark and I wasn’t really “checking it out”, just happened to notice some movement.

Were the crossings at the Kyrie Eleison during the litanies when the deacon crosses and bows after each petition or at another time (surely not at each of the 40 Kyrie Eleison in the Hours)? What I have seen most often in the litanies is that people will cross themselves when especailly joined to that petition.

Nice this parish has a hottie. The Orthodox parish I often visit also has several.

Wow! Thanks for the references 5L. The Kyrie Eleisons were during the Litanies. They didnt do hours as far as I know. But they definately DO NOT cross during the litanies in the EC Churches. At the Orthodox it was like 1/2 maybe less but it was done by the more correct individuals. Like choir members(and hot woman). Yes I noticed that too now that you mention the Priest blessing and the parishioners not Crossing. I crossed. You always see everyone at the EC parishes crossing. I will refrain next time(at the OC).

Im gonna check out that link you showed me now. Thank you!
KS

 

[5Loaves]

. The Kyrie Eleisons were during the Litanies. They didnt do hours as far as I know. But they definately DO NOT cross during the litanies in the EC Churches. At the Orthodox it was like 1/2 maybe less but it was done by the more correct individuals.

So, if it was during the Litanies then at that time I see both (in my EC and the OCA, don’t know about ROCOR nor the Greeks, I didn’t notice)-- that some people will cross themselves and bow slightly after each petition, as does the deacon praying the litany. Other people, myself included, only cross and bow when the petition has a special intention for them (not sure how else to say it). (For example, right now the son of the priest whose OCA parish I sometimes attend is in the military overseas so I cross myself when the petition is for the armed forces, because I am especially praying for John in that petition.)

I don’t know if we may cross ourselves during the Great Entrance when the priest is offering petitions in our midst while holding the gifts. but I find I cross myself when he prays for those persecuted for the faith, and actually I often start to cry at that moment especially now as our people are again under such increased persecution.

I’d be surprised if they didn’t do the Hours, before DL when the priest is preparing the gifts, and after, when he’s finishing up and people are venerating the Holy Icons and leaving. We do both Hours.

 

[Sir_Thomas_More]

So, if it was during the Litanies then at that time I see both (in my EC and the OCA, don’t know about ROCOR nor the Greeks, I didn’t notice)-- that some people will cross themselves and bow slightly after each petition, as does the deacon praying the litany. Other people, myself included, only cross and bow when the petition has a special intention for them (not sure how else to say it). (For example, right now the son of the priest whose OCA parish I sometimes attend is in the military overseas so I cross myself when the petition is for the armed forces, because I am especially praying for John in that petition.)

Being a Marine, and an army OIF vet I can definitely relate to that one!

I did notice on the site that you relayed to me, they said you cross first then bow and that is the opposite of everyone I just saw on the Eparchy of Parma’s intro to Eastern Catholicism video (I mean EVERYONE, priests, deacons, the bishop, faithful). They would bow with their hand close to the ground (but not touch) and then swing up and the hand would touch the head and begin the crossing.

easternchristianmedia.com/breifexp.html

Ill consult the Prayer Book. That may be a thing thats just different.

Thanks again. Trying to sleep now…Why am I still awake…?

 

[ciero]

Wow! Thanks for the references 5L. The Kyrie Eleisons were during the Litanies. They didnt do hours as far as I know. But they definately DO NOT cross during the litanies in the EC Churches. At the Orthodox it was like 1/2 maybe less but it was done by the more correct individuals. Like choir members(and hot woman). Yes I noticed that too now that you mention the Priest blessing and the parishioners not Crossing. I crossed. You always see everyone at the EC parishes crossing. I will refrain next time(at the OC).

Im gonna check out that link you showed me now. Thank you!
KS

The people at EC churches I go to certainly cross themselves during the litanies. You will find there isn’t the type of uniformity in Eastern Churches as you will find in the Latin Church. I find this very refreshing, but I’m sure it is a sore point for someone like yourself (ex military). Welcome to the East!

 

[Nine_Two]

I’ve found actual practice regarding when the sign of the cross is done, bowing, etc. can vary from parish to parish, and even between individuals.

 

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[Sir_Thomas_More]

The people at EC churches I go to certainly cross themselves during the litanies. You will find there isn’t the type of uniformity in Eastern Churches as you will find in the Latin Church. I find this very refreshing, but I’m sure it is a sore point for someone like yourself (ex military). Welcome to the East!

Hrmmm. Three I have gone to in the Cleveland area(two regularly, one in a psuedo “sinners Mass” getting up a bit late) did not.

The Priest during morning prayers did do the full litany touching the ground 3 or 5 times at the start.

I dont mind people doing this or doing that but Im new to this and its like being instructed and 3 people all telling you different things. I would rather do things the most correct way which is typically the more reverent but not always(like prostrating on a Sunday Liturgy in the middle of the litany to be extreme).

 

[Sir_Thomas_More]

I’ve found actual practice regarding when the sign of the cross is done, bowing, etc. can vary from parish to parish, and even between individuals.

Yes, as was the case in the parish I visited. Like I said to ciero, I try to do what is proper, and most reverent. Im looking at the “when to bow” stuff in the Jordanville prayer book, and after each point I add in my mind in a generic Russian accent -“or you will be shot comrade!” Kinda adds to the fun in learning.

 

[ciero]

Hrmmm. Three I have gone to in the Cleveland area(two regularly, one in a psuedo “sinners Mass” getting up a bit late) did not.

The Priest during morning prayers did do the full litany touching the ground 3 or 5 times at the start.

I dont mind people doing this or doing that but Im new to this and its like being instructed and 3 people all telling you different things. I would rather do things the most correct way which is typically the more reverent but not always(like prostrating on a Sunday Liturgy in the middle of the litany to be extreme).

The hardest part for most Westerners to accept with regards to Eastern praxis is there is NO right way.

As I was told by an Orthodox bishop MANY years ago when I began my journey East…don’t worry about whats right or wrong about things like when to cross yourself and when not to…JUST DO IT.

I know its often stated but I’ll say it again…Being Eastern is really all about seeing the world in a whole new way.

 

[Formosus]

I know at my mission parish in charlotte, we generally cross ourselves during the litanies, but there is nothing wrong with not crossing during them. Depends on how the Spirit moves you I guess

 

[Cecilianus]

There’s a lot of diversity in what people do - it varies from parish to parish. I move frequently so I’ve picked up a lot of different habits from different parishes.

I make two “minor prostrations” (bowing to the waist and touching the floor with two fingers, before making the sign of the cross) when entering a church - one right at the entrance when I first walk into the nave, at the very back of the church and another before venerating the icon on the tetrapod. I learned this from a Romanian Catholic friend who used to be Russian Orthodox. I then venerate the icon and cross myself three times without bowing - this was the custom I learned at a UGCC parish. At my (Ruthenian) parish that I am registered at, we only bow three times on penitential days like the Triumph of the Life-Giving Cross, when everyone makes three “great prostrations” (down on hands and knees the way Muslims pray).

I also cross myself with most of the litanies, or at least the ones I really care about. This was the custom at another Ruthenian parish where we all learned this from imitating the subdeacon, who along with the cantors crosses himself on each litany.

The Old Believers will make two great prostrations at the beginning of Liturgy - one as they enter the church and a second one when the Liturgy starts. I would probably look weird in a Nikonian-use Catholic parish, so I have never done that.