Orthodox VS Catholic: Communion

[ReaderT]

Is there a Church document stating this belief?

The Ecumenical Patriarch just released one actually:

"a) The Mystery of the Divine Eucharist is non-negotiable because we believe that through it it is transmitted to the faithful the Body and Blood of the Saviour Christ “unto the remission of sins and life eternal” and it is impossible that through this Mystery of Mysteries any disease might be communicated to those who partake. For this reason, the Church remains steadfast and immovable in its teaching towards the essence of the Mystery of Holy Communion.

b) As to the mode of distributing the ineffable Mysteries to the faithful, the Church, respecting Holy Tradition that is interwoven inextricably with the daily ecclesiastical practice and kenoitc experience, and as the guardian and vigilant watchman of those traditions handed down from the Holy Father, finds no need for a change of this mode, especially under pressure from external factors."

 

[Montrose]

I find myself completely agreeing with you on this.

 

[ReaderT]

You’re entitled to your opinion, but I’m going to side with the Archbishop Alexander, the Ecumenical Patriarch, and all the Bishops of Russia and Greece.

 

[nicholasG]

When holy communion first began, no one ever suspected that disease might be transmitted through this process. We know differently now. I’m sure that Catholic surgeons wash their hands before an operation. The Church should update its practice so worshipers could feel safe; using disposable spoons, wearing gloves, etc…Only makes sense.
Just my opinion.

 

[ReaderT]

Actually yes. The Russian church has a history of clergy who are doctors. The recent Bishop Luke of Simferopol was a surgeon and bishop. He published many books and articles on regional anesthesia and surgery, including some that are still manuals for surgeons today. He is now known to be a world-famous pioneering surgeon.

If natural science is going to judge supernatural Orthodoxy, we’re not going to get past Matthew chapter 1: “A virgin can’t give birth. Case closed. Christianity must be false.”

 

[Wesrock]

runningdude:

There is nothing in Catholic or Orthodox doctrine that would preclude disease from being transmitted on the host or sacred chalice. This is why it is sinful to purposefully drop or contaminate the blessed sacrament.

The Orthodox position is that the Eucharist (including the spoon) cannot get you sick.

To the other part of your post: the reason it’s sinful to drop the Eucharist is because that’s disrespectful to the Lord Whose body it is.

The Catholic position would be that it isn’t the Eucharist making you sick. It’s other things on it that may make you sick. Though I understand your meaning.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

Brcic_003:

Do Catholics believe that sickness can be spread through the bare handed distribution/handling of the Eucharist?

The Eucharist has no magical properties that preclude the transmission of disease. I’m not aware of any belief in Orthodoxy that teaches otherwise either.

As @ReaderT stated, It is the Body and Blood of the Lord, Who is the Divine “Physician of our souls and bodies” (c.f. Priest’s Prayer in DL). He does not cause illness if the communicant is in the state of sanctifying grace, the Divine Life of God. St. Paul states in 1 Corinthians 11: 23-32 that it is on account of receiving the Body and Blood unworthily that many became sick and died.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Also, why do Roman Catholics sometimes use white wine for the Blood of Christ? Or does the substance used before Transubstantiation even matter?

I have attended Eastern Catholic Churches that used white wine.

Orthodox apparently take communion by spoon, which seems more reverent than letting people of the clergy hand out the body of Christ by bare hand with the priest and deacon.

Check out Liturgy of St. James (Greek). It is Byzantine Liturgy and Body of Christ is distributed by same manner as in Latin Rite IIRC. So it isn’t fully Latin practice to do it that way…

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

I am sure I have received Byzantine Communion from white wine. My Byzantine Catholic friend even says he likes it more when they use red wine than when they use white wine… so that probably means they use both.

 

[CathBoy1]

If natural science is going to judge supernatural Orthodoxy, we’re not going to get past Matthew chapter 1: “A virgin can’t give birth. Case closed. Christianity must be false.”

100%, furthermore can science prove to us the Real Presence?
Not definitively.
However I, as you, and every RC & EO (or at least anyone who claims to be RC or EO ought to) 100% believe in the real presence.

I also agree wholeheartedly, the Holy Eucharist is not going to make people sick. I honestly feel like it is a lack in faith to suggest otherwise.

 

[Montrose]

Canon Law only specifies wine, no colour.

Can. 924 §1 The most holy Sacrifice of the Eucharist must be celebrated in bread, and in wine to which a small quantity of water is to be added.

§2 The bread must be wheaten only, and recently made, so that there is no danger of corruption.

§3 The wine must be natural, made from grapes of the vine, and not corrupt.

 

[runningdude]

The Orthodox position is that the Eucharist (including the spoon) cannot get you sick.

Let me ask: if a blasphemer added arsenic powder to the spoon, would the Holy Eucharist protect the communicant from being poisoned?

I think this is a rather obvious “no”, so how are bacteria and viruses any different?

 

[ReaderT]

if a blasphemer added arsenic powder to the spoon, would the Holy Eucharist protect the communicant from being poisoned?

Something similar happened to St. John Maximovitch (a recent wonderworking Saint, died in the 1960s). He didn’t get sick:

"The following incident, told by O. Skopichenko and confirmed by many from Shanghai, well illustrates [Saint John’s] daring, unshakable faith in Christ. “Mrs. Menshikova was bitten by a mad dog. The injections against rabies she either refused to take or took carelessly - and then she came down with this terrible disease. Bishop John found out about it and came to the dying woman. He gave her Holy Communion, but just then she began having one of the fits of this disease; she began to foam at the mouth, and at the same time she spit out the Holy Gifts which she had just received. The Holy Sacrament cannot be thrown out. Vladika [St. John] picked up and put in his mouth the Holy Gifts vomited by the sick woman. Those who were with him exclaimed: ‘Vladika, what are you doing! Rabies is terribly contagious!’ But Vladika peacefully answered: `Nothing will happen; these are the Holy Gifts.’ And indeed nothing did happen.” (Source)

I think this is a rather obvious “no”, so how are bacteria and viruses any different?

Some might also say it’s rather obvious that men can’t walk on water - but we can’t judge miracles by science and cold rationalism.

 

[runningdude]

I am aware of St. John Maximovitch. I am aware of two persons recorded as walking on water. I am also aware of the Eucharist turning into heart muscle.

Singular miraculous incidents don’t become normative.

 

[ReaderT]

Singular miraculous incidents don’t become normative.

Saint John was not a miraculous one-off, though. He was an example/confirmation of the principle that Margaret_Ann and I already explained above, which is that the Eucharist doesn’t make [worthy] recipients sick. Like he said: “Nothing will happen; these are the Holy Gifts.” It will be the same for anyone who receives the Holy Gifts because they are the Holy Gifts.

 

[ReaderT]

Well, you’d have to take it up with Saint John then, because he’s the one who said nothing would happen.

 

[CoffeeFanatic]

I know a priest who is a retired physician, actually.

 

[Vico]

ReaderT:

If natural science is going to judge supernatural Orthodoxy, we’re not going to get past Matthew chapter 1: “A virgin can’t give birth. Case closed. Christianity must be false.”

100%, furthermore can science prove to us the Real Presence?
Not definitively.
However I, as you, and every RC & EO (or at least anyone who claims to be RC or EO ought to) 100% believe in the real presence.

I also agree wholeheartedly, the Holy Eucharist is not going to make people sick. I honestly feel like it is a lack in faith to suggest otherwise.

USCCB wrote:

What measures should be taken in Roman Catholic liturgies in the United States of America during flu season?
Priests, deacons, and extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion should be especially reminded of the need to practice good hygiene. Ministers of Holy Communion should always wash their hands before Mass begins; a further precaution suggests using an alcohol-based anti-bacterial solution before and after distributing Holy Communion. The faithful should be instructed not to receive from the chalice if they feel ill.

https://www.usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/sacred-music-and-art/influenza-and-the-liturgy

 

[AlNg]

Since covid 19, the local Eastern Catholic Church uses a different wooden spoon for each communicant. All the spoons are disposed of properly in a respectful manner after the Liturgy, which i think means burning.

 

[Anesti33]

So if the Orthodox Eucharist cannot pass disease or poison, then it will be trivial for scientific testing to distinguish the Eucharist from mere bread and wine. Any amount of toxin/poison/virus infused into the Eucharist will be inactivated and test that way. That is quite remarkable.