Orthodox Vs. Catholic

[Matariel]

Dear Orthodox and Catholic brethren, I am Anglican, but currently debating with myself joining the Holy Orthodox Church or the Holy Catholic Church. I would like to hear your various views on why:

(For Orthodox

The Latins are wrong on Papal Authority

On the use of the doctrine of Transubstantiation

On the Filioque

On the Orthodox understanding of Ancestral Sin

(For Catholics

Why the Orthodox are wrong about resisting Papal Authority

Why they are wrong about the Immaculate Conception

Why they are wrong on the Filioque

On the Catholic understanding of Original Sin

Please, charity! Treat others nicely. And please quote from the Fathers indiscriminately. :coffeeread:

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

As a Catholic, I’d like to comment on the Catholic beliefs…

Papal Office
The Papal Office works well with Isaiah 22:22.

Immaculate Conception
The Immaculate Conception works well if you consider Mary as the spouse of the Holy Spirit. (Eve was the spouse of Adam at her creation. The Church was the spouse of Christ at her creation. Why not Mary be the spouse of the Holy Spirit at her creation?)

Filioque
The Holy Spirit is the inifinite love between the Father and the Son.

Original Sin
Sorry… I don’t know the difference.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Dear Orthodox and Catholic brethren, I am Anglican, but currently debating with myself joining the Holy Orthodox Church or the Holy Catholic Church. I would like to hear your various views on why:

(For Orthodox

The Latins are wrong on Papal Authority

On the use of the doctrine of Transubstantiation

On the Filioque

On the Orthodox understanding of Ancestral Sin

(For Catholics

Why the Orthodox are wrong about resisting Papal Authority

Why they are wrong about the Immaculate Conception

Why they are wrong on the Filioque

On the Catholic understanding of Original Sin

Please, charity! Treat others nicely. And please quote from the Fathers indiscriminately. :coffeeread:

If I were in your situation I would ask Jesus and this is what he said about which church to attend;
Mathew 16:17
Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood 12 has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
18
**And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, **13 and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
19
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

If I was born in the East, spoke Eastern languages, prided myself in Eastern cultures and called them Orthodox, why not remain Orthodox?

But, if I was concerned with Truth, and sought Jesus humbly, I would definitely follow Jesus wherever he built his church.

That’s my opinion

Heres an early church father about apostolic succession and the first three Popes after St. Peter. The first 4 Roman Catholic Popes are recorded in scripture beginning with St. Peter, according to St. Ireaneaus

2 Tim 4:21 Do your best to come before winter. Eubu’lus sends greetings to you, as do Pudens and** Linus **and Claudia and all the brethren.

St.Irenaeus
Chapter III.—A refutation of the heretics, from the fact that, in the various Churches, a perpetual succession of bishops was kept up.
1.It is within the power of all, therefore, in every Church, who may wish to see the truth, to contemplate clearly the tradition of the apostles manifested throughout the whole world; and we are in a position to reckon up those who were by the apostles instituted bishops in the Churches, and [to demonstrate] the succession of these men to our own times….that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops…3. The blessed apostles, then, having founded and built up the Church, committed into the hands of Linus the office of the episcopate. Of this Linus, Paul makes mention in the Epistles to Timothy. To him succeeded Anacletus; and after him, in the third place from the apostles, Clement was allotted the bishopric. This man, as he had seen the blessed apostles, and had been conversant with them, might be said to have the preaching of the apostles still echoing [in his ears], and their traditions before his eyes. Nor was he alone [in this], for there were many still remaining who had received instructions from the apostles.”

 

[cathopologist]

You can read about the Filioque from a Catholic perspective here: catholic.com/library/Filioque.asp
*
*

“Orthodoxy and Rome each believes itself to have been right and its opponent wrong upon the points of doctrine that arose between them; and so Rome and Orthodoxy since the schism have each claimed to be the true Church. Yet each, while believing in the rightness of its own cause, must look back at the past with sorrow and repentance. Both sides must in honesty acknowledge that they could and should have done more to prevent the schism. Both sides were guilty of mistakes on the human level. Orthodox, for example, must blame themselves for the pride and contempt with which during the Byzantine period they regarded the west; they must blame themselves for incidents such as the riot of 1182, when many Latin residents at Constantinople were massacred by the Byzantine populace. (None the less there is no action on the Byzantine side which can be compared to the sack of 1204.) And each side, while claiming to be the one true Church, must admit that on the human level it has been grievously impoverished by the separation. The Greek east and the Latin west needed and still need one another. For both parties the great schism has proved a great tragedy.”

Bishop Kallistos Ware from his book, The Orthodox Church

“O strange Orthodox Church, so poor and so weak… maintained as if by a miracle through so many vicissitudes and struggles; Church of contrasts, so traditional and yet at the same time so free, so archaic and yet so alive, so ritualistic and yet so personally mystical; Church where the Evangelical pearl of great price is preciously safeguarded — yet often beneath a layer of dust… Church which has so frequently proved incapable of action — yet which knows, as does no other, how to sing the joy of Pascha!”

Father Lev Gillet, in Vincent Bourne, La Quête de Vérité d’Irénée Winnaert (Geneva: Labor et Fides, 1966), 335.

As for the other questions, they can be easily searched on the internet. I do not believe in proselytizing (other Catholics don’t either) and i do have deep respect for the Holy Orthodox church. Despite our difficulties, i do hope that one day (hopefully during our lifetimes), there will be a full communion. Then, our lungs can breathe with ease.

Pray for unity between the two great churches:

Dear God in Heaven! Father, Son, and Holy Spirit! May we, your Children on Earth, experience the unity that You share! No division, no animosity, no hatred; may we find the words to express the Unity of Your Body in Heaven!

We should all devote this week to prayer, that we can experience in the unity of time the unity of the Body of Christ in Heaven, with one soul, one Body in union with Its Head, one Body in union with Its Soul which is Christ!

 

[Hesychios]

Dear Orthodox and Catholic brethren, I am Anglican, but currently debating with myself joining the Holy Orthodox Church or the Holy Catholic Church. I would like to hear your various views on why:

(For Orthodox

The Latins are wrong on Papal Authority

On the use of the doctrine of Transubstantiation

On the Filioque

On the Orthodox understanding of Ancestral Sin

(For Catholics

Why the Orthodox are wrong about resisting Papal Authority

Why they are wrong about the Immaculate Conception

Why they are wrong on the Filioque

On the Catholic understanding of Original Sin

Please, charity! Treat others nicely. And please quote from the Fathers indiscriminately. :coffeeread:

I suggest that you pose this question on an Orthodox board such as Orthodoxchristianity.net as well. This only to assure a more balanced treatment of the questions.

It is also possible to get some of your answers at Monachos.

 

[Matariel]

I suggest that you pose this question on an Orthodox board such as Orthodoxchristianity.net as well. This only to assure a more balanced treatment of the questions.

It is also possible to get some of your answers at Monachos.

Good idea. I didn’t even think of that. I have to get an account there.

 

[Matariel]

You can read about the Filioque from a Catholic perspective here: catholic.com/library/Filioque.asp
*
*Bishop Kallistos Ware from his book, The Orthodox Church
Father Lev Gillet, in Vincent Bourne, La Quête de Vérité d’Irénée Winnaert (Geneva: Labor et Fides, 1966), 335.

As for the other questions, they can be easily searched on the internet. I do not believe in proselytizing (other Catholics don’t either) and i do have deep respect for the Holy Orthodox church. Despite our difficulties, i do hope that one day (hopefully during our lifetimes), there will be a full communion. Then, our lungs can breathe with ease.

Pray for unity between the two great Churches:

Is it possible that both are true expressions of the Universal Church? Perhaps they are both the True Church… but wouldn’t this compromise the Unicity of the Church (one of the four marks of the universal Church)?

 

[Matariel]

As a Catholic, I’d like to comment on the Catholic beliefs…

Papal Office
The Papal Office works well with Isaiah 22:22…

Yes, it does fit…

Original Sin
Sorry… I don’t know the difference.

This, I would really like to know.

 

[cathopologist]

Is it possible that both are true expressions of the Universal Church?

I’ll let this quote taken from CA’s page speak for itself:
, 43).filioquefilioqueThe Orthodox ChurchDiakoniaA Voice from the Byzantine East

Perhaps they are both the True Church… but wouldn’t this compromise the Unicity of the Church (one of the four marks of the universal Church)?

There can only be one. Both Churches can become one if they look into 1 Corinthians 12:4-6 more seriously.

However, we, as lay people need to extend and embrace one another as brethren if we wish for our respectful bishops and patriarchs to recognize the need for a genuine full communion.

***“We must realize that Orthodox and Catholic believers are no longer rivals. We are allies. The rivalry must be gone once and for all. If we understand that, proselytism will stop.” ***- from Bishop Hilarion, the Russian Orthodox Bishop of Vienna and Austria Sofia, Bulgaria, Apr 24, 2008

 

[Matariel]

The World would be in so much greater shape, especially here in America, if Holy Orthodoxy and Holy Catholicism were united… we all, Catholic and Orthodox, need to push for this.

 

[Peter_J]

You can read about the Filioque from a Catholic perspective here: catholic.com/library/Filioque.asp
*
*Bishop Kallistos Ware from his book, The Orthodox Church

Father Lev Gillet, in Vincent Bourne, La Quête de Vérité d’Irénée Winnaert (Geneva: Labor et Fides, 1966), 335.

As for the other questions, they can be easily searched on the internet. I do not believe in proselytizing (other Catholics don’t either) and i do have deep respect for the Holy Orthodox church. Despite our difficulties, i do hope that one day (hopefully during our lifetimes), there will be a full communion. Then, our lungs can breathe with ease.

Pray for unity between the two great churches:

Great post, cathopologist! Love the quotes.

 

[Peter_J]

I’ll let this quote taken from CA’s page speak for itself:

Today many Eastern Orthodox bishops are putting aside old prejudices and again acknowledging that there need be no separation between the two communions on this issue…

In my humble opinion, the other catholic.com quote you provided was better.

 

[Peter_J]

Is it possible that both are true expressions of the Universal Church? Perhaps they are both the True Church… but wouldn’t this compromise the Unicity of the Church (one of the four marks of the universal Church)?

Quite right. To say that both are “the True Church” would mean accepting Branch Theory.

I think it would be better to say that only one of them can be “the True Church”, but that’s it is very difficult to determine which one it is.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Quite right. To say that both are “the True Church” would mean accepting Branch Theory.

I think it would be better to say that only one of them can be “the True Church”, but that’s it is very difficult to determine which one it is.

Yeah. I try to be ecumenical, but it can sometimes be hard to avoid being slightly amused at the Orthodox/Catholic debates that go on in this forum. Same exact claims; same exact evidence. Neither winning the argument.

And you expect it to work against Protestants?

 

[Matariel]

Quite right. To say that both are “the True Church” would mean accepting Branch Theory.

Then can I say, “One is the complete true Church, but the other is a defective part of that same Church.” Or would this still compromise unicity?

I think it would be better to say that only one of them can be “the True Church”, but that’s it is very difficult to determine which one it is.

What’s your opinion? Are you Catholic or Orthodox or niether?

 

[Matariel]

Yeah. I try to be ecumenical, but it can sometimes be hard to avoid being slightly amused at the Orthodox/Catholic debates that go on in this forum. Same exact claims; same exact evidence. Neither winning the argument.

So you believe niether were in the wrong in the schism?

And you expect it to work against Protestants?

I am Anglican, but, frankly, I think the Catholics have the upper hand, due to the Petrine statements of the Fathers and the implications from Scriptures. However, I’ll always be friendly towards sensible Lutherans such as yourself.

Mind if I add you to my Buddy List?

 

[Alexius]

As for Original/Ancestral Sin, there really is no difference between Catholic and Orthodox theology on this. In the East, we prefer to emphasize the condition of desire–that is the natural “desire” of human nature to sin. In the West, the emphasis is on the “stain” of Original Sin–that is, the deprivation of sanctifying grace in the soul. This is the Grace which we receive at Holy Baptism, the Grace that makes us pleasing to GOD.

Unfortunately, there are often two issues from Orthodox (usually over-zealous Evangelical converts) over Original Sin. The first is that Catholics teach that we are personally guilty of the sin of our first parents, Adam and Eve–as though we did this ourselves. This is more in line with Protestant thought. Though the term “guilt” is often used in older Latin theology (generally absent in the Eastern theology), the term is not comparable to the common notion. In any case, Catholic theology does not teach this.

The second common issue is over what makes up the consequences of Original Sin (what we are born with due to Adam and Eve’s sin). Orthodox generally name “death” as the main consequence of Original Sin. Some will say that this is only physical death; however, according to Eastern fathers, this death is both bodily and spiritually. In other words, our soul is without the life-giving Grace that we need to grow in communion with GOD.

I studied this single issue for months on end reading everything I could from Eastern sources and in the end, I found both expressions valid and equally right. The Catholic Catechism is extremely Eastern in its approach to Original Sin and I was pleased at that.

Also, I believe you will find that the main difference between Orthodoxy and Catholicism is the place of the Bishop of Rome. Most other things are semantics and misconceptions. In the case where Orthodox theology does not have dogmatic expressions (like Transubstantiation), there are varying views from Orthodox, many admitting to the same teaching, just not by that name. Even in the Eastern Catholic churches, these terms are usually not used, but the doctrine is accepted.

My recommendation is to study, read and attend different churches in order to decide where to go. Do not rush. Most people who rush stay in the chosen church for only six months. Even if you feel firm in MOST doctrines of a given church, have all opposing views exhausted before you choose. This happened to me, so I know…Most importantly, pray!

If you want more on this topic, then feel free to ask (I didn’t put any sources because I am so tired, but I have many).

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

 

[RedSoxFan]

Now that was an awesome post.

“May the all be one.”

 

[Matariel]

As for Original/Ancestral Sin, there really is no difference between Catholic and Orthodox theology on this. In the East, we prefer to emphasize the condition of desire–that is the natural “desire” of human nature to sin. In the West, the emphasis is on the “stain” of Original Sin–that is, the deprivation of sanctifying grace in the soul. This is the Grace which we receive at Holy Baptism, the Grace that makes us pleasing to GOD.

Oh, I see…

Unfortunately, there are often two issues from Orthodox (usually over-zealous Evangelical converts) over Original Sin. The first is that Catholics teach that we are personally guilty of the sin of our first parents, Adam and Eve–as though we did this ourselves.

This has to do with the traducian soul theory, doesn’t it? What do the Orthodox think? Do they say we inherit the guilt of Adam?

This is more in line with Protestant thought.

Yes, some Protestants I know also say that sin is past on patrilinially, through the man. I often wondered how they arrived at this conclusion.

Though the term “guilt” is often used in older Latin theology (generally absent in the Eastern theology), the term is not comparable to the common notion. In any case, Catholic theology does not teach this.

How does it differ from the common notion?

The second common issue is over what makes up the consequences of Original Sin (what we are born with due to Adam and Eve’s sin). Orthodox generally name “death” as the main consequence of Original Sin. Some will say that this is only physical death; however, according to Eastern fathers, this death is both bodily and spiritually. In other words, our soul is without the life-giving Grace that we need to grow in communion with GOD.

Catholics, I guess, say that physical death and disease, as well as spiritual death, are the consequences of Original Sin. They also say that this is why animals fight/die/have predatory instincts-- they suffer too, because Adam, their caretaker sinned.

I studied this single issue for months on end reading everything I could from Eastern sources and in the end, I found both expressions valid and equally right. The Catholic Catechism is extremely Eastern in its approach to Original Sin and I was pleased at that.

Good! One less thing to disagree about. Although, you know they’ll say that your Western in your approach to it!

Also, I believe you will find that the main difference between Orthodoxy and Catholicism is the place of the Bishop of Rome.

I quite agree. This is an area that must be fixed. Do you have hope it will some day be fixed?

Most other things are semantics and misconceptions.

I’m glad you say this. I had some Latins and Orthodox arguing on another thread about Purgatory, and they had no idea how similar they kept sounding!

In the case where Orthodox theology does not have dogmatic expressions (like Transubstantiation), there are varying views from Orthodox, many admitting to the same teaching, just not by that name. Even in the Eastern Catholic churches, these terms are usually not used, but the doctrine is accepted.

That’s good. I hope Holy Orthodoxy and Holy Catholicism will one day re-unite.

My recommendation is to study, read and attend different churches in order to decide where to go. Do not rush. Most people who rush stay in the chosen church for only six months. Even if you feel firm in MOST doctrines of a given church, have all opposing views exhausted before you choose. This happened to me, so I know…Most importantly, pray!

Good advice. The nearest Orthodox church is 45 miles away.

If you want more on this topic, then feel free to ask (I didn’t put any sources because I am so tired, but I have many).

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

Thanks alot, Alexius. This has been really enlightening. :bowdown2:

Just curious, but, what were you raised and how’d you join the Holy Orthodox Church?

 

[TriuneUnity]

So you believe niether were in the wrong in the schism?

All things considered… the Western church has always been more accurate theologically.

I am Anglican, but, frankly, I think the Catholics have the upper hand, due to the Petrine statements of the Fathers and the implications from Scriptures. However, I’ll always be friendly towards sensible Lutherans such as yourself.

Mind if I add you to my Buddy List?

They have the upper hand in many areas as compared to neo-evangelicalism from today.

You certainly may add me!