Orthodox vs Catholicism

[Hesychios]

Yes, that is true, the union did not happen. It was opposed by only one, Mark of Ephesus, and later by the people.

In fact, Saint Mark went west as one of the few definitely pro-union delegates. His stance changed in Florence and hardened considerably as the months proceeded.

It should be remembered that this was a political bid on the part of the Roman emperor. He was trying to trade off the Orthodox church for military assistance, but in fact he did not control the Orthodox church (insofar as his own actual territory was greatly diminished, most Orthodox bishops and clergy were free of his influence and coercion).

The Latin church (as much as it abhorred and opposed royal interference in it’s own affairs) was perfectly willing to use the desperate king to manipulate the situation.

But it didn’t work.

 

[bpbasilphx]

\It is commonly known that the Melkites had always opposed the beatification or canonization of Pio Nono. Of course, Pope John Paul II basically discounted or ignored these objections and beatified him anyway.\

**First I’ve heard of it.

Doesn’t sound so commonly known to me.

Can you give documentation?**

 

[bpbasilphx]

We are considering the following autocephalous churches (no higher ranking bishop):

Catholic Patriarch: Rome
Orthodox Patriarchs: Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, Russia, Serbia, Romania, Bulgaria, Georgia, Cyprus, Greece, Poland, Albania, Czech & Slovakia.

So, do you mean the statements of these Patriarchs?

The Church of Greece is autocephalous, but is not part of any patriarchate, even Constantinople. The same with the Churches of Cyprus, Poland, and Albania. The former Czechoslovakian Orthodox Church is now the Church of the Czech and Slovak Republics, with a joint Synod for both countries–it’s still one Orthodox Church, however.

All their primates are either Archbishops or Metropolitans.

Georgia’s primate is a Catholicos.

 

[Ghosty]

If the story is true, it may be recorded in some formal documents filed by the Melkite Catholic church relating to the cause of Pius IX.

This is my biggest problem with the story. It may well be true, and if so it doesn’t shake any of my beliefs, as a Catholic, in the Papacy. I’ve never seen any documentation of the event in question, however, and not even any contemporary references to it. The earliest reference I’ve seen to it comes from the Second Vatican Council, IIRC, when the Melkite Patriarch mentioned the event in connection with abuses against the role and dignity of the non-Latin Patriarchs. The documentation may exist, I just haven’t encountered any.

Given the propensity for “myth-making” and exageration in Middle Eastern culture (I’m saying this as someone of Middle Eastern descent and a member of a fully Middle Eastern parish) I’m not willing to give the account full weight without some harder documentation. It’s quite possible that it was only recounted in private, and came out publically much later, but I remain a bit wary of such things.

I don’t believe that the story, if incorrect or exagerated, is malicious slander (at least not intentionally), but rather a reflection of the sentiment that the Patriarchs and Eastern Churches haven’t always been properly respected in the Catholic Communion. That’s the way I “read” the story, having a lot of personal experience with the cultures involved: it’s certainly true insofar as it reflects the attitudes and perceptions of the groups involved, whether or not the incident itself occured. Sometimes that line can get a little blurry.

Peace and God bless!

 

[aspirant]

I don’t think there will be an account of it specifically uploaded at %between%the Sancta Sedes website, or at EWTN

I didn’t ask for sources on those websites. I just asked for sources where I could read more about it.

it may be recorded in some formal documents filed by the Melkite Catholic church relating to the cause of Pius IX.

Does anyone else here know?

It may well be true, and if so it doesn’t shake any of my beliefs

Nor mine. Some popes and the people they work with have been real jackasses, at least at times. I just want to know more about this particular event.

The earliest reference I’ve seen to it comes from the Second Vatican Council, IIRC, when the Melkite Patriarch mentioned the event in connection with abuses against the role and dignity of the non-Latin Patriarchs.

Where can I find that mention?

I don’t believe that the story, if incorrect or exagerated, is malicious slander (at least not intentionally), but rather a reflection of the sentiment that the Patriarchs and Eastern Churches haven’t always been properly respected in the Catholic Communion.

If the story is incorrect or exaggerated, I think this is probably the best reading.

But if it’s not incorrect or exaggerated, I want to know more about it.

 

[Madaglan]

\It is commonly known that the Melkites had always opposed the beatification or canonization of Pio Nono. Of course, Pope John Paul II basically discounted or ignored these objections and beatified him anyway.\

**First I’ve heard of it.

Doesn’t sound so commonly known to me.

Can you give documentation?**

In his *Tous Schismatiques? *(published in English as We Are All Schismatics) Archbishop Elias Zoghby writes how Pope Pius IX, while seated, shook the Patriarch’s head with his knee and said *testa dura *(“stubborn, stubborn”). According to Archbishop Elias Zoghby, a later Melkite Patriarch mentioned this to Rome in objection to the proposal to canonize Pope Pius IX.

(See: Zoghby, Elias. We Are All Schismatics. Newton, MA: Education Services, 1996: p. 26)

It may not be the same exact story, but note how Pope Pius IX shakes the Patriarch’s head with his knee. What was the Patriarch’s head doing that close to the Pope?

 

[Ghosty]

In his *Tous Schismatiques? *(published in English as We Are All Schismatics) Archbishop Elias Zoghby writes how Pope Pius IX, while seated, shook the Patriarch’s head with his knee and said *testa dura *(“stubborn, stubborn”). According to Archbishop Elias Zoghby, a later Melkite Patriarch mentioned this to Rome in objection to the proposal to canonize Pope Pius IX.

(See: Zoghby, Elias. We Are All Schismatics. Newton, MA: Education Services, 1996: p. 26)

It may not be the same exact story, but note how Pope Pius IX shakes the Patriarch’s head with his knee. What was the Patriarch’s head doing that close to the Pope?

It’s from the same supposed event, and as you can see accounts differ on what actually happened. What’s more there are no written accounts of the event at all until nearly a century later. This is why I’m suspicious of the event having occured at all.

Peace and God bless!

 

[aspirant]

Pope Pius IX, while seated, shook the Patriarch’s head with his knee and said *testa dura *

Thanks for providing a book where I can look for the story, Madaglan!

How does one shake a person’s head with his knee? I hope the book describes this better?

 

[Madaglan]

Thanks for providing a book where I can look for the story, Madaglan!

How does one shake a person’s head with his knee? I hope the book describes this better?

Hi aspirant,

The book I referenced does not go into much more detail that I provided.

I found a post on a blog that provides additional resources:
See: cathedraunitatis.wordpress.com/2007/02/03/dictatus-papae/

Go down to the first post by user “michael” made on February 6, 2007 to see additional publishes sources.

Michael presents the view, put forward by the historian Hasler, that the more intense version of the incident was passed down orally and privately amongst the Melkite Patriarchs and not disclosed lest wider knowledge of it lead to schism.

 

[aspirant]

Thanks, I’ll look into it!

 

[Vico]

The Church of Greece is autocephalous, but is not part of any patriarchate, even Constantinople. The same with the Churches of Cyprus, Poland, and Albania. The former Czechoslovakian Orthodox Church is now the Church of the Czech and Slovak Republics, with a joint Synod for both countries–it’s still one Orthodox Church, however.

All their primates are either Archbishops or Metropolitans.

Georgia’s primate is a Catholicos.

Thank you.

So these are the Catholic & autocephalous Orthodox churches?

Catholic Patriarch: Rome
Orthodox Patriarchs: Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, Russia, Serbia, Romania, Bulgaria
Orthodox Catholicos-Patriarch: Georgia
Orthodox Archbishop: Cyprus, Greece, Albania
Orthodox Metropolitan: Poland, Czech and Slovak Republics, (America)