Orthodox: What is your opinion of Kirill I of Moscow?

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I am willing to accept that, as a gentleman, you didn’t say it. But let’s be truthful with one another here.

As with all threads on CAF about Orthodoxy (which I often avoid) they eventually end up nowhere. The reason, in my mind, is that while Catholics consider themselves and their Church very close to Orthodoxy, that’s far from being the way at least many Orthodox view Catholicism. Usually the process of often slow disclosure leads to disappointment and even hard feelings.

Orthodoxy does consider Catholicism heretical; profoundly heretical; irredeemably heretical. Catholicism accepts the validity of Orthodox sacraments. Orthodox do not accept the validity of Catholic sacraments. Catholics think that somehow reunion would be a matter of ironing out some minor disagreements about the Pope and the filioque. Orthodox believe Latin Christianity should be restricted to the City of Rome, maybe with the present Pope if he quits being Pope, but probably with an Orthodox replacement. The “Moscow” Orthodox do not think the Catholic Church should be anywhere in the western hemisphere, western Europe or Asia.

In short, Catholicism looks toward reunion with Orthodoxy whereas literal Orthodoxy looks to the elimination of Catholicism entirely.

Reduced to its most basic, that’s the truth.

Now, I will also say there is some variation among the Orthodox about such things. The Patriarch of Constantinople seems to desire at least a closer union. The Patriarch of Moscow is very, very different from that.

So, it may be well to return to what anybody thinks about Patriarch Kirill.
Well there’s an enormous difference between being mistaken and being a heretic. A heretic is a person who accepted the truth of Orthodoxy, began to teach something contrary to the Orthodox faith and then accepted that those new teachings actually are orthodox. To say that an old grandmother in Sicily, who has adhered to the only faith they’ve ever known, is a heretic or schismatic is ridiculously absurd.
 
I beg to differ … I have been to many Catholic Churches and have never seen one like the picture you posted … which looks to be a very newly constructed parish …

here is a link to a nearby parish - recently constructed and the video of the creation of the altar Crucifix … resurrection-catholic-parish.org/video/video/show?id=2277237%3AVideo%3A29065

More on their Icons here resurrection-catholic-parish.org/icons

But the Church building was in use before the Icon was established … so even the Church you posted my change over time …

St Mary’s Cathedral - Portland, OR - maryscathedral.com/artwork/

Far more common are Catholic Church that look like this -

Sacred Heart Parish - Klamath Falls OR - shpkfo.shutterfly.com/268

St Boniface - Sublimity, OR - henrystrobel.com/saintboniface/album1/images/amy%26george.jpg and henrystrobel.com/saintboniface/album1/images/mainaltar.jpg
I hope those types of churches are as common as you say. In my experience, they’re definitely not the norm. As for the picture I posted initially, that’s the church I was raised in which was built in 1991 after a tornado destroyed the previous building.
 
Well there’s an enormous difference between being mistaken and being a heretic. A heretic is a person who accepted the truth of Orthodoxy, began to teach something contrary to the Orthodox faith and then accepted that those new teachings actually are orthodox. To say that an old grandmother in Sicily, who has adhered to the only faith they’ve ever known, is a heretic or schismatic is ridiculously absurd.
the truth of Orthodoxy
I don’t accept the “truth” of Orthodoxy, but you would be hard pressed on this path to prove I am not orthodox. Being the point we are working on. Again I accept Ridges understanding of Catholicism but as you should begin to see mine is very different, I didn’t arrive in the Church via Western thinking. How about you? 😉

But I do know many very good Western Catholics. Again its a different emphasis on particular mysteries and how we see

“theoria” 👍 Its not exclusive to the EO. Really all there is to it.
 
The Churches in New England are very beautiful.

youtu.be/cdLHL8xI_5w

And there are many built post 1960 just as beautiful. Here’s a Ukrainian Catholic

youtube.com/watch?v=lKo86jQf-Ag

I could show you the Russian Orthodox here also, not very different.
Among the various Eastern Catholic Churches is the Ruthenian Catholic Church. The Ruthenians (also called “Rusyns”) are a minority group in Ukraine, Czechoslovakia and Poland. Some time ago I ran across this hymn sung by a Ruthenian Catholic parish group in the U.S. It’s really neat. youtube.com/watch?v=-ndfJiyismM A photo of their altar is included with it. Small church, but beautiful.
 
Among the various Eastern Catholic Churches is the Ruthenian Catholic Church. The Ruthenians (also called “Rusyns”) are a minority group in Ukraine, Czechoslovakia and Poland. Some time ago I ran across this hymn sung by a Ruthenian Catholic parish group in the U.S. It’s really neat. youtube.com/watch?v=-ndfJiyismM A photo of their altar is included with it. Small church, but beautiful.
Yes, of course. I see the conversation as very similar to the on-going cultural acceptance in the Catholic Church. I can remember the very same disputes among each other between the Italians, Irish, and even the protestants. Everyone thinks this way, and of course being raised as I was I rejected the narrow minded thinking. I do see a difference in aspects of understanding divinization and the ways which we see this. That said I’m very impressed with the Italian Catholic Church. They were a bit triumphant also when we all arrived here and of course would like to see all Italian Popes. 😉 Course these days its other areas of a diverse cultural Church such as Africa.
 
The most drastic recent departure has been the iconoclasm that has become rampant in the Catholic Church in the past 50 years or so. But there are many new doctrines that have been declared since the Schism. From the filioque to purgatory to the Immaculate Conception to Papal Infallibility. All of these have driven us farther and farther apart.
Do you have any evidence that “rampant iconoclasm” exists outside of North America? I spend a lot of time in Latin America and the veneration and procession of icons and statues (especially of Our Lady) is HUGE. In the Archdiocese of Vancouver, back home in Canada, there is a huge influx of Filipino immigrants, and they constantly are kissing and bowing before the statues and icons in the cathedral. The rampant spread of liberalism on the grounds NEVER endorsed by Rome is not indicative of the Catholic Church as a whole. There have been many periods of rampant heresy in the past which were overcome. Younger priests, in my experience, tend to be far more traditional than priests of the 1960s-80s generation. Certainly traditional liturgy has made a comeback.

I’m also quite disturbed when Orthodox Christians on these forums speak of us “not being close AT ALL”. That’s how I would describe Catholicism and Hinduism. I wouldn’t even use such language in reference to Protestantism (despite the many differences in doctrine). I suppose its all relative. Certainly I’ve met many Orthodox “in real life” who do not share your views, including priests, who focus rather on how much we have in common. I’ve worshiped at a Melkite parish where Orthodox Christians regularly communed. I’m sure their bishop was at least aware of the situation as they went there in the absence of an Orthodox liturgy in their own language (Arabic).

Catholics tend to see many of the differences as differing expressions rather than differing core beliefs…which is why we coexist with our Eastern Catholic brethren who express Byzantine, Syriac, Coptic, etc theology. Often I see Catholic doctrines misrepresented by Orthodox Christians on these forums - there is a lot of misunderstanding on both sides. The early post that speaks of Mary as the “great exception” is one. The Immaculate Conception does not in any way imply that Mary is not “one of us” or that she was something other than human. The “stain” of original sin refers to the absence of sanctifying grace (that is, the divine life of the Trinity indwelling in the soul). Our Lady was in communion with the Trinity from the first moment of her conception - but she was truly and fully human…she was and is what we are striving to be…a sanctified, redeemed human being.

As an aside, all of my family is Protestant. I converted to Catholicism when I was 18. One branch of my family is currently investigating Eastern Orthodoxy. One of my cousins has already been baptized into the Ukrainian Orthodox Church. We’ve had many fruitful discussions and he, like me, sees much in common between the two faiths. His mother, my aunt, who is now regularly attending Divine Liturgy at an OCA parish, came to holy mass with me at St. Joseph’s Basilica in Edmonton, Alberta. She was struck by how fundamentally similar (in her view as an outsider) the divine liturgy and the holy mass were… of course in my experience most Cathedrals tend to have a much more traditional mass and the priest did employ chant. (Which most younger priests do in my experience).

As an aside, the filioque and purgatory were part of the Latin tradition, in one form or another, long before the Great Schism. yet we were in full communion. As was the IC. We’ve always believed that Our Lady enjoyed the indwelling of the divine life of the Trinity from the first moment of her conception…as did many Eastern Fathers. The “stain” of original sin refers primarily to the “absence” of divine life. If there is no absence, if there is no problem, why baptize infants? Orthodox often tell me that everyone is immaculately conceived. When a Catholic hears this, you are telling us that every single human being is full of divine life…in full communion with the Divine Trinity from the first moment of conception. You are telling us that every human being is conceived a deified saint. That’s what the IC means for Catholics.
 
I hope those types of churches are as common as you say. In my experience, they’re definitely not the norm. As for the picture I posted initially, that’s the church I was raised in which was built in 1991 after a tornado destroyed the previous building.
The norm where? I don’t mean any disrespect, but do you think that parish churches in Texas are representative of the global Catholic Church? I’ve visited many stunning Catholic Churches around the world, but even in the US and Canada there are a good number.
 
I’m also quite disturbed when Orthodox Christians on these forums speak of us “not being close AT ALL”. That’s how I would describe Catholicism and Hinduism. I wouldn’t even use such language in reference to Protestantism (despite the many differences in doctrine). I suppose its all relative. Certainly I’ve met many Orthodox “in real life” who do not share your views, including priests, who focus rather on how much we have in common. I’ve worshiped at a Melkite parish where Orthodox Christians regularly communed. I’m sure their bishop was at least aware of the situation as they went there in the absence of an Orthodox liturgy in their own language (Arabic).
I do think Orthodox Christians go too far at times when emphasizing the differences between us and Rome. I think that it’s a reaction to all the times we’re told by Catholics that we’re so similar to Catholicism that if we could just “accept the pope” we could “come home” (and, we are assured, we wouldn’t even have to give up our “beautiful liturgies!”). This ignores that we see real reasons both in doctrine and practice that cause us to remain out of communion with you, not just anti-Catholicism or Greek obstinacy or whatever choice terms people like to throw around.

But that’s the nature of internet forums. I promise we are much nicer in person 🙂
 
There are undoubtedly westerners who have “gone east” mentally and perhaps culturally, just as there are easterners who have “gone west” the same way. There are probably reasons for both. Without intending anything negative, I will say that while I think eastern liturgies (both Orthodox and Eastern Catholic) fascinating and sensually gorgeous, I guess I am so thoroughly “Roman” in culture, education, blood and bone that I can’t truly be anything other than a westerner no matter what I might try to do.

I should add, though, that I think in both east and west, real integration of the young into the life of the Church has suffered a lot over the last few decades. A lot of people “don’t know who they are”. It is at least somewhat comforting to me that many Catholic young people (and not a few converts from Protestantism in my part of the country) are turning to more traditional (and profound) understandings of their faith. One trusts that may be the case in the east at some point if it isn’t already turning.
I tend not to look toward the culture of a Church or where it is located since I tend to focus more on the Lord which helps me to think better about the Church no matter where it is. I find out that I am in a very small minority since most people tend to guided by culture even the culture of their Church. I do agree with you that the simpler the faith the better the message. Perhaps we are trying too much to teach everything when in truth the primacy of love needs to be stressed. Too many of our youth are not connecting to the Gospel and the Church simply because we are not connecting properly to them. I find though since this post is dealing with Kirill I of Moscow that there is a great surge of interest among the Russian youth into the Church. It is to my understanding of living in both Churches that the Eastern Divine Liturgies are more geared to experiencing God much earlier in your life than what the Catholic Mass does. The Catholic Mass tends to be more understood when one comes of age. Since the Communist experiment has been a failure in Russia the experience of God in Russia seems to find its place eecially among the youth. I do not know if this faith has been easier for them but the Orthodox Church tends to be a more simplified Church than the Church of Rome so that the Orthodox experience of God will be able to reach to them much sooner.
 
Yes, of course. I see the conversation as very similar to the on-going cultural acceptance in the Catholic Church. I can remember the very same disputes among each other between the Italians, Irish, and even the protestants. Everyone thinks this way, and of course being raised as I was I rejected the narrow minded thinking. I do see a difference in aspects of understanding divinization and the ways which we see this. That said I’m very impressed with the Italian Catholic Church. They were a bit triumphant also when we all arrived here and of course would like to see all Italian Popes. 😉 Course these days its other areas of a diverse cultural Church such as Africa.
I know this is off-topic, but I can’t help myself.

My mother’s grandparents were Italian and spoke Italian. My father’s grandparents were Irish and spoke Gaelic. Each went to their respective grandparents’ houses from time to time and, if they were there in the evening, the old folks always said the rosary…each in their respective languages. My mother reported that the rosary in Italian was incredibly brief compared to the rosary in English. My father reported that the rosary in Gaelic was interminably long by comparison.

Now, having learned to say the Hail Mary in both, I realize that neither is inherently longer or shorter than the other. At least the Hail Marys aren’t. So the only expanation I have for myself is that the Irish, being more grave in their Catholicism generally, said it slower and more ponderously, while the Italians, being perhaps more light-hearted about theirs, rushed through that melody known as the Italian language so they could play instruments and sing later, which they were given to doing.

There was a difference, and the attitude toward sin was a big part of the difference. It was a serious thing to both, but the Irish were dour about it, mournful, and it weighed heavily on them. The Italians were “Okay, it’s bad. Confess it and forget it. Now, let’s sing.”

To get back on topic so I don’t get sanctioned, I think Patriarch Kirill is in a difficult and unenviable position. Orthodoxy has “state identifications” that Catholicism doesn’t have. Kirill would like to think of Russia as “holy Russia”; orthodox, orderly, hierarchical, and, well, a bit top-down, with Moscow as the “new Rome”. But the “top” is a former KGB colonel who is killing Christians in Ukraine. Justinian, he ain’t.
 
To get back on topic so I don’t get sanctioned, I think Patriarch Kirill is in a difficult and unenviable position. Orthodoxy has “state identifications” that Catholicism doesn’t have. Kirill would like to think of Russia as “holy Russia”; orthodox, orderly, hierarchical, and, well, a bit top-down, with Moscow as the “new Rome”. But the “top” is a former KGB colonel who is killing Christians in Ukraine. Justinian, he ain’t.
I think so also, I think in some respects we can all identify with proud Russians so this aspect I don’t see as abnormal. One has to wonder about the Church-state dynamics which of course is raising all kinds of concerns in Ukraine, who seek religious freedom, its a very difficult position the Ukranians are placed in as also with Eastern Catholics in general, and they seem to be being pulled from two sides and not by choice.

At the end of the day these Christian faiths are on a collision course which imho may well be no separation of Church and state. Its hard to imagine these days with Christianity but it indeed appears as the latitude contended for by Moscow. Further I can’t see how the Patriarch assumes to be right with no discourse to conversation. The paradigm is very similar to what we see suggested here. The assumption of being right before factually proven, I think we are dealing with a unknown here and many are attempting to suggest nothing but pure Christian views. I have my doubts but reserve judgement.
 
I tend not to look toward the culture of a Church or where it is located since I tend to focus more on the Lord which helps me to think better about the Church no matter where it is. I find out that I am in a very small minority since most people tend to guided by culture even the culture of their Church. I do agree with you that the simpler the faith the better the message. Perhaps we are trying too much to teach everything when in truth the primacy of love needs to be stressed. Too many of our youth are not connecting to the Gospel and the Church simply because we are not connecting properly to them. I find though since this post is dealing with Kirill I of Moscow that there is a great surge of interest among the Russian youth into the Church. It is to my understanding of living in both Churches that the Eastern Divine Liturgies are more geared to experiencing God much earlier in your life than what the Catholic Mass does. The Catholic Mass tends to be more understood when one comes of age. Since the Communist experiment has been a failure in Russia the experience of God in Russia seems to find its place eecially among the youth. I do not know if this faith has been easier for them but the Orthodox Church tends to be a more simplified Church than the Church of Rome so that the Orthodox experience of God will be able to reach to them much sooner.
I agree with some of what you say, but not all. I don’t think we should ignore culture, because we’re profoundly shaped by it, and there is no harm in the Church speaking to people in their own cultural language.

When it comes to the trappings, the “smells and bells”, it’s easy for children to become enthralled. I was. For teens, the message is everything, which is why sometimes teens are vulnerable to Evangelical messages. Being Catholic as I am, and having lived among Evangelicals as I have, I will say the simplicity is like frosting on a cake…simple, attractive, but little in the way of nourishment. A lot of young adults, though, turn away from Evangelical and Fundamentalist sects. Most of the converts in my parish (and there are a lot) are young adults from Evangelical or Fundamentalist backgrounds.

But there’s more, in my opinion. I don’t want to make too much of culture, but it matters, and much more than we often think it does. Why do our courts follow precedent? Well, because the Anglo-Saxons did. Why do we have an elected congress? Well, because the Nordic tribes elected representatives to the “Althing”, their governing body. Why are nearly all of our public buildings Greek or Roman in design? Because it’s imprinted on us in other ways and we aspire to be people of order and the law just as the Romans were. Why are our streets gridded in squares? Because the Romans, uniquely, did that in their cities. And why do we have the “filioque”? Because the Franks did. Why can Kipling’s “Harp Song of the Dane Women” not be translated into Spanish? (and it can’t) Because it has a Scandinavian poetical mode to it that is alien to Romance languages but which is a bit odd but not incomprehensible to an English-speaker. Why do western men shave? Because the Romans did. Why do we wear trousers? Because the Franks did. Why do travelers abroad sometimes get the feeling that they have suddenly come upon a “perfect place” later to find that their ancestors came from thereabouts? Because the place and everything in it has cultural reverberations that our own parents exposed us to without them or us knowing it. Why are we so careful to have smooth, very green lawns even in the semi-deserts of California? Because grass grows lush in England and if you put sheep on it, that’s what you’ll get.

In my part of the country, most people are of Scots-Irish ancestry. Fairly early on after the Reformation, they turned away from the Anglican Church to which they were forced, initially to convert, and adopted a fundamentalist Presbyterianism of a very basic, direct, and simple sort. I remember some years back, my area was visited by, of all people, Ian Paisley. He actually preached in some of the Fundamentalist churches here. Curious, I went to see one of them. It was astonishing! Their reaction to him and he to them was as natural as if they had left Ulster yesterday…and yet 300 years separated them from him.
Why? Well, because culturally-originated things last a lot longer than we think they do.

And why would the Scots-Irish Fundamentalists, as young adults, be attracted to Catholicism? Because even before Henry VIII, and before Presbyterianism and before Ian Paisley, Catholicism in the border lands between England and Scotland (where the Scots-Irish originally came from) was basic, simple, direct, taught by rough monks in rough conditions, yet stretching back through the Church Fathers to Jesus Himself.

If you ask one of those converts why he/she joined the Church (and I have) the answers almost never vary. “The Mass makes (orderly) sense and the Eucharist gets me close to Jesus, which is what I always wanted.” Simple, direct, orderly and plain, but historically and theologically profound. Straight to the goal. Perhaps as a concession to culture, the convert daughter of a Baptist preacher often plays the hammer dulcimer at Communion. Walking up to Communion while she plays, e.g. “Just as I am” has brought a tear to my eye at times. It’s as close to heaven as I expect to get “this side of Jordan”.

Personally, I think Flannery O’Connor was right. Someday in this country, we’ll see the South Catholic. Maybe I won’t see it in my lifetime, but it will happen. (Catholic parishes in Atlanta, I’m told, are HUGE) And cultural intersection will have a great deal to do with it. (And yes, I have a great deal of fondness for my Scots-Irish neighbors.)
 
I think so also, I think in some respects we can all identify with proud Russians so this aspect I don’t see as abnormal. One has to wonder about the Church-state dynamics which of course is raising all kinds of concerns in Ukraine, who seek religious freedom, its a very difficult position the Ukranians are placed in as also with Eastern Catholics in general, and they seem to be being pulled from two sides and not by choice.

At the end of the day these Christian faiths are on a collision course which imho may well be no separation of Church and state. Its hard to imagine these days with Christianity but it indeed appears as the latitude contended for by Moscow. Further I can’t see how the Patriarch assumes to be right with no discourse to conversation. The paradigm is very similar to what we see suggested here. The assumption of being right before factually proven, I think we are dealing with a unknown here and many are attempting to suggest nothing but pure Christian views. I have my doubts but reserve judgement.
I think if I were a Ukrainian Catholic or an Orthodox member of the Kiev Patriarchate (declared heretical and illegal by P. Kirill), I would oppose military or political domination by Moscow with every bit of strength I had, and for reasons related to the preservation of my own faith community.
 
Do you have any evidence that “rampant iconoclasm” exists outside of North America? I spend a lot of time in Latin America and the veneration and procession of icons and statues (especially of Our Lady) is HUGE. In the Archdiocese of Vancouver, back home in Canada, there is a huge influx of Filipino immigrants, and they constantly are kissing and bowing before the statues and icons in the cathedral. The rampant spread of liberalism on the grounds NEVER endorsed by Rome is not indicative of the Catholic Church as a whole. There have been many periods of rampant heresy in the past which were overcome. Younger priests, in my experience, tend to be far more traditional than priests of the 1960s-80s generation. Certainly traditional liturgy has made a comeback.

I’m also quite disturbed when Orthodox Christians on these forums speak of us “not being close AT ALL”. That’s how I would describe Catholicism and Hinduism. I wouldn’t even use such language in reference to Protestantism (despite the many differences in doctrine). I suppose its all relative. Certainly I’ve met many Orthodox “in real life” who do not share your views, including priests, who focus rather on how much we have in common. I’ve worshiped at a Melkite parish where Orthodox Christians regularly communed. I’m sure their bishop was at least aware of the situation as they went there in the absence of an Orthodox liturgy in their own language (Arabic).

Catholics tend to see many of the differences as differing expressions rather than differing core beliefs…which is why we coexist with our Eastern Catholic brethren who express Byzantine, Syriac, Coptic, etc theology. Often I see Catholic doctrines misrepresented by Orthodox Christians on these forums - there is a lot of misunderstanding on both sides. The early post that speaks of Mary as the “great exception” is one. The Immaculate Conception does not in any way imply that Mary is not “one of us” or that she was something other than human. The “stain” of original sin refers to the absence of sanctifying grace (that is, the divine life of the Trinity indwelling in the soul). Our Lady was in communion with the Trinity from the first moment of her conception - but she was truly and fully human…she was and is what we are striving to be…a sanctified, redeemed human being.

As an aside, all of my family is Protestant. I converted to Catholicism when I was 18. One branch of my family is currently investigating Eastern Orthodoxy. One of my cousins has already been baptized into the Ukrainian Orthodox Church. We’ve had many fruitful discussions and he, like me, sees much in common between the two faiths. His mother, my aunt, who is now regularly attending Divine Liturgy at an OCA parish, came to holy mass with me at St. Joseph’s Basilica in Edmonton, Alberta. She was struck by how fundamentally similar (in her view as an outsider) the divine liturgy and the holy mass were… of course in my experience most Cathedrals tend to have a much more traditional mass and the priest did employ chant. (Which most younger priests do in my experience).

As an aside, the filioque and purgatory were part of the Latin tradition, in one form or another, long before the Great Schism. yet we were in full communion. As was the IC. We’ve always believed that Our Lady enjoyed the indwelling of the divine life of the Trinity from the first moment of her conception…as did many Eastern Fathers. The “stain” of original sin refers primarily to the “absence” of divine life. If there is no absence, if there is no problem, why baptize infants? Orthodox often tell me that everyone is immaculately conceived. When a Catholic hears this, you are telling us that every single human being is full of divine life…in full communion with the Divine Trinity from the first moment of conception. You are telling us that every human being is conceived a deified saint. That’s what the IC means for Catholics.
As far as I know the aversion to images seems to be confined mostly to the US and Germany. But of course that is a pretty large part of the Church. And as to you not having the experience of having differences emphasized I think that is just a function of an internet forum. I know Catholics in real life and we would never talk about the kind of things that we discuss here and in real life it’s a good thing to focus on the things we share which are considerable. I mean I love Pope Francis and really enjoyed watching his visit to Constantinople on EWTN. I do hope the dialogue continues and continues in truth.
 
To be blunt, who cares what Protestants think? That sounds mean, but I’m of the opinion that if the Catholic church wants to move towards Protestantism or towards Orthodoxy, I think both Catholics and Orthodox would prefer the latter.
The catholic church wants to move towards Catholicism thank you.
 
As far as I know the aversion to images seems to be confined mostly to the US and Germany. But of course that is a pretty large part of the Church.

I mean I love Pope Francis and really enjoyed watching his visit to Constantinople on EWTN. I do hope the dialogue continues and continues in truth.
I have never been to Germany, but my wife has, several times. As I understand it, the Catholic churches (largely in the Rhineland and Bavaria) are full of images. Go into a Lutheran church, and there aren’t any.

Perhaps I should not say this to an Orthdox, but some of the misinterpreters of Vatican II seem to have gone off on a tangent of trying to superficially imitate what they THINK the early Church looked like, physically. They imagine all Christians met in unadorned caverns and huts, and try to imitate that appearance, whereas the reality often was that they met in the marbled homes of aristocratic converts. Very early Jewish Christians met in the temples. After Constantine’s Edict, they lost no time in building very impressive churches, more like the marbled homes and temples than the caves and huts.

My Irish ancestors heard Mass in the hedgerows. But I personally see no merit in designing a church to look like a hedgerow, complete with artificial drizzling Irish rain, mud underfoot, and the occasional British bayonet poking through the brambles at my ribs.
 
Perhaps I should not say this to an Orthdox, but some of the misinterpreters of Vatican II seem to have gone off on a tangent of trying to superficially imitate what they THINK the early Church looked like, physically. They imagine all Christians met in unadorned caverns and huts, and try to imitate that appearance, whereas the reality often was that they met in the marbled homes of aristocratic converts. Very early Jewish Christians met in the temples. After Constantine’s Edict, they lost no time in building very impressive churches, more like the marbled homes and temples than the caves and huts.

My Irish ancestors heard Mass in the hedgerows. But I personally see no merit in designing a church to look like a hedgerow, complete with artificial drizzling Irish rain, mud underfoot, and the occasional British bayonet poking through the brambles at my ribs.
I agree, and it’s an accusation we also have to deal with from time to time (though thankfully not usually from inside our communion). “The first Christians just sat around on the floor in their blue jeans and talked about how cool Jesus was, why do you need all that pageantry?”
 
I agree with some of what you say, but not all. I don’t think we should ignore culture, because we’re profoundly shaped by it, and there is no harm in the Church speaking to people in their own cultural language.

When it comes to the trappings, the “smells and bells”, it’s easy for children to become enthralled. I was. For teens, the message is everything, which is why sometimes teens are vulnerable to Evangelical messages. Being Catholic as I am, and having lived among Evangelicals as I have, I will say the simplicity is like frosting on a cake…simple, attractive, but little in the way of nourishment. A lot of young adults, though, turn away from Evangelical and Fundamentalist sects. Most of the converts in my parish (and there are a lot) are young adults from Evangelical or Fundamentalist backgrounds.

But there’s more, in my opinion. I don’t want to make too much of culture, but it matters, and much more than we often think it does. Why do our courts follow precedent? Well, because the Anglo-Saxons did. Why do we have an elected congress? Well, because the Nordic tribes elected representatives to the “Althing”, their governing body. Why are nearly all of our public buildings Greek or Roman in design? Because it’s imprinted on us in other ways and we aspire to be people of order and the law just as the Romans were. Why are our streets gridded in squares? Because the Romans, uniquely, did that in their cities. And why do we have the “filioque”? Because the Franks did. Why can Kipling’s “Harp Song of the Dane Women” not be translated into Spanish? (and it can’t) Because it has a Scandinavian poetical mode to it that is alien to Romance languages but which is a bit odd but not incomprehensible to an English-speaker. Why do western men shave? Because the Romans did. Why do we wear trousers? Because the Franks did. Why do travelers abroad sometimes get the feeling that they have suddenly come upon a “perfect place” later to find that their ancestors came from thereabouts? Because the place and everything in it has cultural reverberations that our own parents exposed us to without them or us knowing it. Why are we so careful to have smooth, very green lawns even in the semi-deserts of California? Because grass grows lush in England and if you put sheep on it, that’s what you’ll get.

In my part of the country, most people are of Scots-Irish ancestry. Fairly early on after the Reformation, they turned away from the Anglican Church to which they were forced, initially to convert, and adopted a fundamentalist Presbyterianism of a very basic, direct, and simple sort. I remember some years back, my area was visited by, of all people, Ian Paisley. He actually preached in some of the Fundamentalist churches here. Curious, I went to see one of them. It was astonishing! Their reaction to him and he to them was as natural as if they had left Ulster yesterday…and yet 300 years separated them from him.
Why? Well, because culturally-originated things last a lot longer than we think they do.

And why would the Scots-Irish Fundamentalists, as young adults, be attracted to Catholicism? Because even before Henry VIII, and before Presbyterianism and before Ian Paisley, Catholicism in the border lands between England and Scotland (where the Scots-Irish originally came from) was basic, simple, direct, taught by rough monks in rough conditions, yet stretching back through the Church Fathers to Jesus Himself.

If you ask one of those converts why he/she joined the Church (and I have) the answers almost never vary. “The Mass makes (orderly) sense and the Eucharist gets me close to Jesus, which is what I always wanted.” Simple, direct, orderly and plain, but historically and theologically profound. Straight to the goal. Perhaps as a concession to culture, the convert daughter of a Baptist preacher often plays the hammer dulcimer at Communion. Walking up to Communion while she plays, e.g. “Just as I am” has brought a tear to my eye at times. It’s as close to heaven as I expect to get “this side of Jordan”.

Personally, I think Flannery O’Connor was right. Someday in this country, we’ll see the South Catholic. Maybe I won’t see it in my lifetime, but it will happen. (Catholic parishes in Atlanta, I’m told, are HUGE) And cultural intersection will have a great deal to do with it. (And yes, I have a great deal of fondness for my Scots-Irish neighbors.)
I was not implying that we are to ignore culture. On the contrary I do not live by one culture but subscribe to many. That is why my appreciation of both Catholicism and Orthodoxy does not make me to question either Church.
 
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