Orthodox: What is your opinion of Kirill I of Moscow?

[twf]

As far as I know the aversion to images seems to be confined mostly to the US and Germany. But of course that is a pretty large part of the Church. And as to you not having the experience of having differences emphasized I think that is just a function of an internet forum. I know Catholics in real life and we would never talk about the kind of things that we discuss here and in real life it’s a good thing to focus on the things we share which are considerable. I mean I love Pope Francis and really enjoyed watching his visit to Constantinople on EWTN. I do hope the dialogue continues and continues in truth.

Latin America has always had a very strong iconography, but I don’t think the Latin West as a whole has ever emphasized icons (even before the Great Schism) to the same extent that the Byzantine East does. Did Medieval German Catholics venerate icons to the same extent that Byzantines do? I doubt it.
I feel that some of the differences cited in these discussions predate the Schism and weren’t issues for centuries… certainly the Filioque was being recited by the Frankish Church long, long, long before the Schism.

 

[YADA]

I almost wince when I see Catholics refer to Church artworks as “icons”. Yes, in western usage that’s correct. But the thought behind “icons” in the east is really different, and so the meaning is different. I’m not an easterner, but I’ll bet an easterner here could point out the differences quicker and better than I could.

But stated briefly and as well as I can. In Catholicism, statues, paintins, mosaics are “reminders” and “illustrations” to emphasize something…rather like putting a photo of Abraham Lincoln in a book about Abraham Lincoln. It personifies something beyond the image itself. It is intended to remind one of the characteristics of the person personified in a personal and literal way.

In the East, icons are considered a “portal” into another world; the world of the sacred. People “lose themselves” in them, almost like an out of body experience. They are regarded as sacred in themselves because of that. That’s true, as I understand it, of both the Orthodox and the Eastern Catholics.

Even the most ornate Catholic churches are “plain” compared to eastern churches. We even turned the altars around so people could see what’s going on. Literalness. In eastern churches much of the liturgy is performed behind a screen. Of course, it’s a lavishly gilded and jeweled artwork screen. Mystical.

The East is East and the West is West, etc.

Well - they may have very ornate churches - we have some very ornate ones as well … Is that the primary focus of the Western or Eastern Church …It is wonderful to illustrate our love and worship of our Lord in beautiful spaces. I totally get that. However, when the western church was sending forth missionary priests into the four corners of the world - they went as Jesus said - with nothing but the clothes on their backs armed with the Gospel …and wrote Icons with their lives - in pretty un-ornate places and conditions …

My experience as a Latin Rite Catholic with Icons is vastly different then yours I think. Brother Claude Lane OSB at Mt Angel Abbey does not view the Icons he writes as mere reminders nor illustrations - but as windows into the mysteries … exactly as our Orthodox brethren do. Personally love the Icons I have in my home., They are part of my Catholic experience, spirituality and life in Christ. They are a door through which I explore that spirituality and enter into communion with the Sacred - the Divine Mysteries.

We in the west have many ways in which we express and experience the gift of our
faith life in Christ … how blessed we are in the statues, the stained glass, the paintings, murals, and our Icons

Perhaps it is because of Mt Angel Abbey being located in our Archdiocese - many of our Churches have some iconography - and as people often visit friends and family - they have the opportunity to experience prayer and reflection with Icons - at least that is my experience … I am sorry for those who don’t take advantage or have no access to this wonderful aspect of our faith

 

[GaryTaylor]

The word ICON comes from the Greek word EIKONA, meaning image. In its broadest sense an icon is any representation of a sacred personage, produced in many media and sizes. In the narrower sense it refers to a devotional painted wooden panel.

The icon is the result of the synthesis of three different cultures: Greek, Roman and Christian. The technique of Byzantine art has traveled beyond the frontiers of the Empire, having a profound influence on the development of art especially in the Slavic nations.

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDYQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.orthodox.cn%2Fcatechesis%2Ficonhistory_en.htm&ei=jOeCVJeUOM2UyASv4YD4BQ&usg=AFQjCNGdwFuormeCTJkOYeIkQ___f8OMWQ

The transformation of the matter takes place at the same time with the transfiguration and divinization of man.

St Michael the Archangel parish CT.

We love you, we know you don’t understand some things. But the nationalistic overtones don’t go over our head. The Church is diverse, its Universal and we don’t impose ourselves on others “culturally” much to the proposed thinking of latinization. Perhaps we should coin a new term …Russianization.

Only kidding guys, those who choose to worship as such like myself or YADA(obviously she gets this) above and many others have the access to this. I can’t “make” Italians or others worship and think like I do. And for sure because you joined the EO today, you didn’t receive a degree in this thinking. A good deal of you came from protestant congregations and so forth. So yes, just so you know I find it highly insulting you should speak of “my culture” as if its YOUR culture and assume I am NOT part of this Culture

Do you understand this? And I am exceedingly happy to see many protestants head to our beautiful Chruches, east or west to assimilate our lifestyle. Please save the hype though.

 

[Cavaradossi]

The catholic church wants to move towards Catholicism thank you.

That statement sure has strange implications.

 

[GaryTaylor]

AP - The heads of Russia’s Orthodox church and Poland’s Catholic church signed an appeal Friday to their nations to forgive each other for past historical wrongs.

The signing in Warsaw during the first visit to Poland by Russia’s Patriarch Kirill has been described by the churches as a historical act of reconciliation. The two nations have feuded for centuries and their ties are still marked by distrust.

“We appeal to our believers to ask for the forgiveness of wrongs, injustice and every evil committed against each other,” the document said. “We are certain that this is the first and the most important step toward rebuilding mutual trust, which is a necessary element of a lasting community and full reconciliation between people.”

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CEYQFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.france24.com%2Fen%2F20120817-russian-orthodox-polish-catholic-churches-sign-reconciliation-appeal-warsaw%2F&ei=9fuCVOCrEsOfyATZqYCwBQ&usg=AFQjCNHTj612eNlzOOl7ZNG-yJaTINtLqw

their ties are still marked by distrust.

This has become more complex with Ukraine as the past year has reignited the distrust. Its a process. just like the sack of Constantinople. These things reverberate through time.

So yes, its a difficult situation and we have to be considerate of everyone. The idea that we should with open arms trust Russia and the skeptical situation with Church and state, well perhaps you’d understand it better standing in our shoes. Theres good reason for the distrust, as you see.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Here’s the same thinking expanded by the EO/CC.

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDEQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.catholicworldreport.com%2FBlog%2F2242%2Fpope_francis_romans_8_and_the_theme_of_theosis.aspx&ei=Kg-DVOPWHc2MyAT21YFA&usg=AFQjCNEzf4pEcmiRc-x7kcMRdku9-H_D_Q

This gift of supernatural filiation goes by many names, including divinization, deification, and theosis, as it is widely known in the Eastern Catholic and Orthodox churches.

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDEQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.antiochian.org%2Fcontent%2Ftheosis-partaking-divine-nature&ei=VA6DVNqvLIeyyASrj4KoAw&usg=AFQjCNHmW1CTmvlVtAFCLBVnP0DggNzvew

You know what I find amusing with all this in mind? Our conversations on the Assumption “body and soul” in relation to this very conversation. When we argue tradition we must be mindful of supernatural filiation. Follow? I’m not saying there’s a wrong or right but a perspective it seems that becomes ignored do to tradition.

 

[dronald]

I agree, and it’s an accusation we also have to deal with from time to time (though thankfully not usually from inside our communion). “The first Christians just sat around on the floor in their blue jeans and talked about how cool Jesus was, why do you need all that pageantry?”

Sigh.

 

[GaryTaylor]

The Saint said…

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_02051995_orientale-lumen_en.html

Pope John Paul II said Catholics should be familiar with “the venerable and ancient tradition of the Eastern Churches”, so as to be nourished by it. Among the treasures of that tradition he mentioned in particular "the teaching of the Cappadocian Fathers on divinization (which) passed into the tradition of all the Eastern Churches and is part of their common heritage. This can be summarized in the thought already expressed by Saint Irenaeus at the end of the second century: God passed into man so that man might pass over to God. This theology of divinization remains one of the achievements particularly dear to Eastern Christian thought

Duns Scotus (Immaculate Conception which the Eastern Saint Palamas was mindful of), argued this point…

For many Church Fathers, theosis goes beyond simply restoring people to their state before the Fall of Adam and Eve, teaching that because Christ united the human and divine natures in Jesus’ person, it is now possible for someone to experience closer fellowship with God than Adam and Eve initially experienced in the Garden of Eden, and that people can become more like God than Adam and Eve were at that time. Some Orthodox theologians go so far as to say that Jesus would have become incarnate for this reason alone, even if Adam and Eve had never sinned

By means of purification a person comes to theoria and then to theosis. Theosis is the participation of the person in the life of God.

Another disputed point perhaps? Another language conversation.

The imperative tradition and teaching of all the orthodox…

St. Maximus the Confessor wrote: "A sure warrant for looking forward with hope to deification of human nature is provided by the [Incarnation of God], which makes man God to the same degree as God Himself became man …

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDEQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FTheosis_%2528Eastern_Orthodox_theology%2529&ei=-B2DVNj3NJKXyASKmYLwCw&usg=AFQjCNH9c8EnBvhZ7XwscNFGGZ0ycqyO6A

The strict tradition of our Church and in particular the East, should to be understood in terms of Romes continued theological discernment in relation to all the above. This is why there is a very good balance and perhaps naturally through the Lords will.

 

[Wandile]

That statement sure has strange implications.

Maybe

 

[Ridgerunner]

Returning to topic, as I mentioned before I think Kirill I is in a difficult position, similar to that of bishops in other dictatorships or places in which there are local warlords, who almost certainly cannot approve of what their respective political people are doing, but have to be very careful not to bring retribution down on the heads of those working under them and their efforts.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Returning to topic, as I mentioned before I think Kirill I is in a difficult position, similar to that of bishops in other dictatorships or places in which there are local warlords, who almost certainly cannot approve of what their respective political people are doing, but have to be very careful not to bring retribution down on the heads of those working under them and their efforts.

Fair assessment, perhaps its why the Holy Father seeks to converse with the Patriarch as a natural concern seems apparent. Its not a matter of solving the Churches prevailing issues, but of brotherly dialogue.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Sigh.

I know… It’s practically impossible to have an actual conversation lately…

 

[Kosta]

Ignorant question:

Why don’t you guys just take communion together and consider each other equal on all accounts but just admit there are some differences in beliefs? Doesn’t Romans 14 cover this sort of thing on petty disagreements, or Paul’s “I follow Cephas, I follow Paul.”

You’re so close that I don’t understand why you’re not united. So what about Peter? Paul even talks about such arguments regarding Peter. How do you not see this and be okay?

Again, maybe a question from ignorance, but what the heck? It all sounds so minor.

Shared communion is the end, not the means to an end. That’d be the worst cop-out in Christian history since monothelitism and Emperor Irakleios’ promulgation of it.

 

[Glagolat]

Not trying to be mean but he seems a bit sketchy to me. The watch incident and the fact that he is in close relations with Putin and the Russian government are part of this attitude.

What’s wrong with the Russian Orthodox Church being close to Russian government? Should the government again persecute Russian Church? The Church and government in Russia work together in perserving Russian Orthodoxy. Just like in era when Roman emperors worked together with Pope and Patriarchs, it was good for the Church, the faith was spreading. The Church of Russia has great potential, new churches are being opened and restored, by the government’s money many times, the number of believers is growing, while we have sad scenario in Italy where beautiful old Roman-Catholic Churches are being closed and turned in to pubs, offices, i have even seen a car wash as well placed in former church. That is sad.
It is good that the Church and government work together, maybe there are few bad things if government would try to meddle in election of the Church leader, but that is not the case. In general, it is very good. Also, in every Orthodox populated country, governments tend to work with the Church, because the Church is important for national culture and the politicians often do it to be popular among the masses. Maybe not all of them put their heart in it, but still, the Church cannot judge People who come to Her.

 

[SyroMalankara]

The bad is when the Church leadership remains quiet against atrocities their leaders commit. When GW Bush invaded Baghdad, the Catholic Church in the US was openly against the action. When Putin invaded sovereign Ukraine, the Russian Orthodox Church remained silent, with some clergy even supporting the pro-Russian rebels.

 

[Kosta]

The bad is when the Church leadership remains quiet against atrocities their leaders commit. When GW Bush invaded Baghdad, the Catholic Church in the US was openly against the action. When Putin invaded sovereign Ukraine, the Russian Orthodox Church remained silent, with some clergy even supporting the pro-Russian rebels.

Are you really going to say that this is an Orthodox specific position when silence over injustice has been perpetrated by your churchmen as much as it has ours?

Not to be blunt, but that’s one thing I don’t like about online Catholicism. It’s always the fault of the Orthodox, and it’s always His Beautitude Kyrill who’s at fault while His All Holiness is portrayed as a bishop who promises that union is just around the corner.

Union is not around the corner & it’s His Beatitude is not holding anything back. The Church is lead by Jesus Christ, not Bartholomew & Kyrillos.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Who said it’s an Orthodox specific problem? It’s currently a Russian Orthodox problem. The OCA had no problem condemning the US invasion of Iraq. Neither did the EP.

 

[Kosta]

Who said it’s an Orthodox specific problem? It’s currently a Russian Orthodox problem. The OCA had no problem condemning the US invasion of Iraq. Neither did the EP.

I’m not talking about the Iraq War at all (considering I was ten when it started, I don’t know anything about any Church condemning it), I’m talking about how I believe that it’s hypocritical that you and many others here love drafting a list of criticisms for the Moscow Patriarchate and scapegoat one man for lack of unity, but then conveniently gloss over other injustices.

 

[eddie_too]

I believe that there are significant divisions among the orthodox patriarchs. I am pretty certain that kiril I is not in communion with the patriarch of Constantinople. I am unsure of wheher the Coptic pope considers himself in communion with the patriarchs of Moscow and Constantinople.

regarding my opinion of kiril I, I really know so little about him. I recognize that dealing with the Russian government may cause him to act in a way that we in the west or the middle east find questionable, although I think it would be better to call it mysterious because dealing with Russian history, customs and politics seems to be quite different from dealing with more western cultures and governments.

I have no desire or intention to criticize kiril I or any of the other orthodox patriarchs and bishops. mostly because I have so little substantive knowledge of them or their teachings and actions.

I do believe that, just like the RC bishops, most of them are sincere and intent upon building the Kingdom of God in the hearts of His human creatures. I would say the same about most religious leaders. I do not believe there is a high percentage of scalawags among Christianity’s leaders. they are mostly men of deep faith in Jesus Christ who are limited by their own life experiences from discerning accurately and completely the essential truths given us by the Lord Jesus.

I believe, in the end, that most of the differences among Christian religious leaders come from our own lack of knowledge, wisdom and understanding.

we all believe the same faith. we just do not all grasp it to the same degrees. but, on one point we do all agree. Jesus is our Lord, our Savior and our Redeemer.

in this sense, what we agree on is far more important and significant than our disagreements.

 

[SyroMalankara]

I’m not talking about the Iraq War at all (considering I was ten when it started, I don’t know anything about any Church condemning it), I’m talking about how I believe that it’s hypocritical that you and many others here love drafting a list of criticisms for the Moscow Patriarchate and scapegoat one man for lack of unity, but then conveniently gloss over other injustices.

I never glossed over the injustices Rome has hoisted on Eastern Catholics or anyone else. You seem to be equating all Catholics into one anti-Orthodox group. I brought up His Holiness and the ROC because that is the topic of this thread. I believe it is hypocritical to ask Catholics and Rome to apologize for every atrocity, perceived or otherwise, when the same isn’t reciprocated by Moscow or most any other EO Church.