Orthodox

[coco2]

Would someone who is Orthodox please explain to me what they believe about sin and the forgiveness of sin? How does it differ from the RC Church?

 

[Tomdstone]

This is an interesting question. Generally, the Orthodox do not make a clear cut distinction between venial and mortal sin, although they recognize that some sins are more serious than others. I am interested to know what will send someone to hell in the teaching of the Orthodox Church… And what is the difference between hades, gehenna, sheol, the Bosom of Abraham, and hell.

 

[Rohzek]

Sin is generally characterized as missing the mark in Orthodoxy. I don’t see much difference between us EO and RC on this point. But as Tomdstone said, we don’t distinguish between venial and mortal sins, although we do have some acknowledgment that there are differences in gravity. As for what sins send someone to Hell, we generally refrain from issuing any proclamation as to what God’s final judgment on people are. The only exceptions are those proclaimed saints.

Although the difference now is quite little to none, historically the Latin West and Greek/Slavic East have differed significantly on the issue of Original Sin/Ancestral Sin. St. Augustine believed that people were personally guilty of Adam’s sin and thereby damned solely on that account. This is why he believed in limbo or limbus infantium. EO have always believed that while we have inherited the consequences of Adam’s actions, we are not personally guilty of his sin. The Latin Church for a long time had a fierce debate on Augustine’s extremism and fluctuated back and forth between the two schools of thought until where it is today, which is no different than EO interpretation.

As for Hell, Sheol, Limbus patrum, etc. EO believe they are all the same. That doesn’t mean we don’t acknowledge levels of it. So we are happy to admit that Limbus patrum exists, but that isn’t essentially different from Hell. That is to say, Limbus patrum is a part of Hell which is more or less characterized by a form of sleep than extreme suffering. Nonetheless, it is still Hell for us. As for Hell as is commonly understood as a place of extreme suffering, we don’t think of Hell so much as a place, although that is permissible, but more as a state of being. The reason we stress it this way is because of our extreme commitment to the omnipresence of God. We reject any notion of Hell where God is not there. Therefore, we believe that the worst punishment for those who have rejected God is to be in his presence. And due to the darkness of their hearts, they will endure unspeakable pain as the pure presence of God burns their hearts that have chosen evil.

Furthermore, there are many, but far from a majority, Orthodox who believe in universal salvation. This should not be mistaken as to preclude our belief in Hell. Such people, which I am one of them, believe that because God is omnipresent and thereby in Hell in a sense, it remains possible that eventually those who have rejected God will come to terms with God and join him in theosis (deification in the Latin sense). Some might object and say that this means there is no reason to obey God on earth and suffer for him. We would counter such arguments by stating that even a fraction of a second in Hell will quickly nullify any sense of profit from disobedience of God because it [Hell] is so absolutely horrible, even if only for a brief moment.

 

[Kmon23]

The only (name removed by moderator)ut I can have is that it seems the RC approach to sin and forgiveness of sin is much more juridical than Orthodoxy.

Whether it be indulgences (although about temporal punishment than sin), mortal/venial, and the theology related to it, a lot of it is very systematic and codified.

Orthodoxy is not that way. Example, mortal sin. Unrepentant mortal sin leads a person straight to hell per Catholic teaching. Orthodoxy teaches that it’s not a question of black and white hell/heaven from this codified definition of mortal sin. All sin is seen as getting farther from God (while still having distinction of greater and lesser sins).

And we don’t have an understanding of temporal punishment in the Orthodox understanding of sin (hence we don’t believe in purgatory), and that this is the result of juridical western understanding. And tied to this is that grace is grace, where we don’t want to categorize God in any way, so neither do we have a belief in categories of sanctifying grace (for Catholics received at baptism/confession), nor in actual grace (enabling us to act).

For us, it’s as simple as “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me a sinner” where we ask for God’s mercy and grace to get closer to Him through repentance, Holy Communion, and sanctification through synergy.

I’m honestly not too knowledgeable in this regard, so if I make a mistake, please correct me.

 

[Peter_J]

The only (name removed by moderator)ut I can have is that it seems the RC approach to sin and forgiveness of sin is much more juridical than Orthodoxy.

Whether it be indulgences (although about temporal punishment than sin), mortal/venial, and the theology related to it, a lot of it is very systematic and codified.

Orthodoxy is not that way. Example, mortal sin. Unrepentant mortal sin leads a person straight to hell per Catholic teaching. Orthodoxy teaches that it’s not a question of black and white hell/heaven from this codified definition of mortal sin. All sin is seen as getting farther from God (while still having distinction of greater and lesser sins).

And we don’t have an understanding of temporal punishment in the Orthodox understanding of sin (hence we don’t believe in purgatory), and that this is the result of juridical western understanding. And tied to this is that grace is grace, where we don’t want to categorize God in any way, so neither do we have a belief in categories of sanctifying grace (for Catholics received at baptism/confession), nor in actual grace (enabling us to act).

For us, it’s as simple as “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me a sinner” where we ask for God’s mercy and grace to get closer to Him through repentance, Holy Communion, and sanctification through synergy.

I’m honestly not too knowledgeable in this regard, so if I make a mistake, please correct me.

I would like to add that I think we (TCC) are moving in the Orthodox direction.

 

[MichaelP3]

Sin is generally characterized as missing the mark in Orthodoxy. I don’t see much difference between us EO and RC on this point. But as Tomdstone said, we don’t distinguish between venial and mortal sins, although we do have some acknowledgment that there are differences in gravity. As for what sins send someone to Hell, we generally refrain from issuing any proclamation as to what God’s final judgment on people are. The only exceptions are those proclaimed saints.

Although the difference now is quite little to none, historically the Latin West and Greek/Slavic East have differed significantly on the issue of Original Sin/Ancestral Sin. St. Augustine believed that people were personally guilty of Adam’s sin and thereby damned solely on that account. This is why he believed in limbo or limbus infantium. EO have always believed that while we have inherited the consequences of Adam’s actions, we are not personally guilty of his sin. The Latin Church for a long time had a fierce debate on Augustine’s extremism and fluctuated back and forth between the two schools of thought until where it is today, which is no different than EO interpretation.

As for Hell, Sheol, Limbus patrum, etc. EO believe they are all the same. That doesn’t mean we don’t acknowledge levels of it. So we are happy to admit that Limbus patrum exists, but that isn’t essentially different from Hell. That is to say, Limbus patrum is a part of Hell which is more or less characterized by a form of sleep than extreme suffering. Nonetheless, it is still Hell for us. As for Hell as is commonly understood as a place of extreme suffering, we don’t think of Hell so much as a place, although that is permissible, but more as a state of being. The reason we stress it this way is because of our extreme commitment to the omnipresence of God. We reject any notion of Hell where God is not there. Therefore, we believe that the worst punishment for those who have rejected God is to be in his presence. And due to the darkness of their hearts, they will endure unspeakable pain as the pure presence of God burns their hearts that have chosen evil.

Furthermore, there are many, but far from a majority, Orthodox who believe in universal salvation. This should not be mistaken as to preclude our belief in Hell. Such people, which I am one of them, believe that because God is omnipresent and thereby in Hell in a sense, it remains possible that eventually those who have rejected God will come to terms with God and join him in theosis (deification in the Latin sense). Some might object and say that this means there is no reason to obey God on earth and suffer for him. We would counter such arguments by stating that even a fraction of a second in Hell will quickly nullify any sense of profit from disobedience of God because it [Hell] is so absolutely horrible, even if only for a brief moment.

Can someone explain to me the Orthodox understand of confession and the necessity of it?

 

[Rohzek]

Can someone explain to me the Orthodox understand of confession and the necessity of it?

Since Orthodox don’t distinguish between mortal and venial sin, it could be said that we don’t have a clearly defined structure of what one MUST go see a priest for in terms of confession. That being said, we generally emphasize that confession is important because the priest is there to do his job: which in this case is to give you practical and spiritual advice on how to break one’s habits of (certain) sin(s) and how to avoid the near occasion of sin. This isn’t to say that one HAS to go to confession for God to forgive them, but rather it is to say that this is a pretty important tool or means to live a more godly life.

 

[Tomdstone]

Since Orthodox don’t distinguish between mortal and venial sin, it could be said that we don’t have a clearly defined structure of what one MUST go see a priest for in terms of confession. That being said, we generally emphasize that confession is important because the priest is there to do his job: which in this case is to give you practical and spiritual advice on how to break one’s habits of (certain) sin(s) and how to avoid the near occasion of sin. This isn’t to say that one HAS to go to confession for God to forgive them, but rather it is to say that this is a pretty important tool or means to live a more godly life.

I have known some Orthodox priests to be more strict than others on that point. In one case a priest denied an Orthodox friend of mine Holy Communion on the basis that she had been away from church for a while. He asked that she go to confession first.

 

[twf]

Since Orthodox don’t distinguish between mortal and venial sin, it could be said that we don’t have a clearly defined structure of what one MUST go see a priest for in terms of confession. That being said, we generally emphasize that confession is important because the priest is there to do his job: which in this case is to give you practical and spiritual advice on how to break one’s habits of (certain) sin(s) and how to avoid the near occasion of sin. This isn’t to say that one HAS to go to confession for God to forgive them, but rather it is to say that this is a pretty important tool or means to live a more godly life.

Surely the Orthodox agree that this mystery (sacramental confession) is the primary means of obtaining God’s forgiveness… By the authority given by Christ to his apostles. It also varies from Orthodox jurisdiction to jurisdiction… Don’t some require confession before receiving communion?

 

[Cavaradossi]

Surely the Orthodox agree that this mystery (sacramental confession) is the primary means of obtaining God’s forgiveness… By the authority given by Christ to his apostles. It also varies from Orthodox jurisdiction to jurisdiction… Don’t some require confession before receiving communion?

I would argue that the primary means of forgiveness would be the Eucharist (the words of institution themselves say as much). Confession is geared towards our restoration to the Church (and thus to God) after we have somehow grievously injured our relationship with God, but the goal of Confession in the end is the restoration of the penitent to communing fruitfully from the chalice (unto the remission of sins and life everlasting). The Eucharist in this way is the capstone of all of the sacraments, the mark that we truly belong to the fold of the Church and to God’s salvation.

 

[RyanBlack]

I would argue that the primary means of forgiveness would be the Eucharist (the words of institution themselves say as much). Confession is geared towards our restoration to the Church (and thus to God) after we have somehow grievously injured our relationship with God, but the goal of Confession in the end is the restoration of the penitent to communing fruitfully from the chalice (unto the remission of sins and life everlasting). The Eucharist in this way is the capstone of all of the sacraments, the mark that we truly belong to the fold of the Church and to God’s salvation.

Very well stated.

 

[MichaelP3]

Since Orthodox don’t distinguish between mortal and venial sin, it could be said that we don’t have a clearly defined structure of what one MUST go see a priest for in terms of confession. That being said, we generally emphasize that confession is important because the priest is there to do his job: which in this case is to give you practical and spiritual advice on how to break one’s habits of (certain) sin(s) and how to avoid the near occasion of sin. This isn’t to say that one HAS to go to confession for God to forgive them, but rather it is to say that this is a pretty important tool or means to live a more godly life.

In a way as a Protestant I can’t see any fault with this. I agree totally that confession can be a very good method to help individuals personally, as well as advance their relationship with God. My biggest problem has always been the absolute necessity of confession.

 

[MichaelP3]

Since Orthodox don’t distinguish between mortal and venial sin, it could be said that we don’t have a clearly defined structure of what one MUST go see a priest for in terms of confession. That being said, we generally emphasize that confession is important because the priest is there to do his job: which in this case is to give you practical and spiritual advice on how to break one’s habits of (certain) sin(s) and how to avoid the near occasion of sin. This isn’t to say that one HAS to go to confession for God to forgive them, but rather it is to say that this is a pretty important tool or means to live a more godly life.

Also something I am not getting clarity on. I like the wording “You confess your sins to God in the presence of a priest”. But how does the whole act end. Does the priest say anything in the sense of “I” absolve you. Does he give any form of penance. If so, as an instruction or as advice? Is there anyway the priest would talk as having some authority, if yes, please give me an example.

Some people with personal experience would be appreciated.

(This is maybe not on topic but the website I was just examining numbers the 10 commandments the same as Protestants. Is this true for Orthodox?)

 

[RyanBlack]

Also something I am not getting clarity on. I like the wording “You confess your sins to God in the presence of a priest”. But how does the whole act end. Does the priest say anything in the sense of “I” absolve you. Does he give any form of penance. If so, as an instruction or as advice? Is there anyway the priest would talk as having some authority, if yes, please give me an example.

Some people with personal experience would be appreciated.

(This is maybe not on topic but the website I was just examining numbers the 10 commandments the same as Protestants. Is this true for Orthodox?)

There is a prayer of absolution, in which the priest asks God to forgive the penitent (during this prayer, the penitent kneels and the priest places his stole over the penitent’s head). Penance may be given, but that’s at the discretion of the priest, and is not really typical of confession in Eastern Orthodoxy, as I understand it.

 

[Rohzek]

I have known some Orthodox priests to be more strict than others on that point. In one case a priest denied an Orthodox friend of mine Holy Communion on the basis that she had been away from church for a while. He asked that she go to confession first.

Yes, such decisions are entirely up to the priest in the name of pastoral latitude.

 

[Rohzek]

Also something I am not getting clarity on. I like the wording “You confess your sins to God in the presence of a priest”. But how does the whole act end. Does the priest say anything in the sense of “I” absolve you. Does he give any form of penance. If so, as an instruction or as advice? Is there anyway the priest would talk as having some authority, if yes, please give me an example.

Some people with personal experience would be appreciated.

(This is maybe not on topic but the website I was just examining numbers the 10 commandments the same as Protestants. Is this true for Orthodox?)

During confession, at least in my experience, both the priest and I sit in the pew facing an icon of Christ. During the process, I confess my sins while the priest may interrupt me and press for more details. Throughout it, we rarely make eye contact, but mostly look at the icon, which is to stress that it is God to whom I’m confessing. The rest is as RyanBlack stated, although in my experience I usually just bowed my head instead of kneeling.

As for penance, I can’t say that I recall ever receiving one from an Orthodox confession. Generally, I would receive some sort of advice on how to avoid some habitual sins, which might include prayer, so that could be understood as penance.

 

[MichaelP3]

During confession, at least in my experience, both the priest and I sit in the pew facing an icon of Christ. During the process, I confess my sins while the priest may interrupt me and press for more details. Throughout it, we rarely make eye contact, but mostly look at the icon, which is to stress that it is God to whom I’m confessing. The rest is as RyanBlack stated, although in my experience I usually just bowed my head instead of kneeling.

As for penance, I can’t say that I recall ever receiving one from an Orthodox confession. Generally, I would receive some sort of advice on how to avoid some habitual sins, which might include prayer, so that could be understood as penance.

Can you please refer me to a good example of the absolution prayer?

tbh, thus far I am quite intrigued and really want to know a lot more. Can you refer me to reliable sources?

 

[RyanBlack]

Can you please refer me to a good example of the absolution prayer?

tbh, thus far I am quite intrigued and really want to know a lot more. Can you refer me to reliable sources?

Here is the prayer I’m most familiar with:

God through Nathan the prophet forgave David his sins; and Peter shedding bitter tears over his denial; and the Adulteress weeping at his feet; and the Publican and the Prodigal Son. May this same God, through me, a sinner, forgive you everything in this life and in the life to come. And may he make you stand uncondemned before his awesome judgment-seat, for he is blessed forever and ever. Amen.

It’s my understanding that this is the form used in the Antiochian Orthodox Church:

**My spiritual child N., who hast confessed to my humble self, I, humble and a sinner, have not power on earth to forgive sins, but God alone. Yet through that divinely spoken word which came to the Apostles after the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, saying, “Whosoever sins ye remit, they are remitted, and whosoever sins ye retain, they are retained,” we too are emboldened to say: Whatsoever thou hast said to my most humble self, and whatsoever thou hast not succeeded in saying, either through ignorance or forgetfulness, whatever it may be, God forgive thee in this present life and that which is to come.

God it was Who forgave David through Nathan the Prophet when he confessed his sins, and Peter weeping bitterly for his denial, and the sinful woman in tears at His feet, and the Publican, and the Prodigal Son, may that same God forgive things, through me, a sinner, both in this present world and that which is to come, and set thee uncondemned before His dread seat.

And now, having no further care for the sins which thou hast declared, depart in peace.**

 

[truthseeker32]

One thing that hasn’t yet been stated but which I believe is crucial is that Orthodoxy is, first and foremost, concerned with what leads an individual to commit certain sins. Sins are the visible symptom of a deeper illness and it should be the priority of an individual with guidance from their parish priest or spiritual father to heal this deeper illness. This distinguishes Orthodox Christianity from other Christian perspectives that focus more on the actions themselves rather than on what it is that makes an individual choose those actions.

 

[MichaelP3]

One thing that hasn’t yet been stated but which I believe is crucial is that Orthodoxy is, first and foremost, concerned with what leads an individual to commit certain sins. Sins are the visible symptom of a deeper illness and it should be the priority of an individual with guidance from their parish priest or spiritual father to heal this deeper illness. This distinguishes Orthodox Christianity from other Christian perspectives that focus more on the actions themselves rather than on what it is that makes an individual choose those actions.

Interesting! Thanks