Orthodoxy and ABC

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Joseph_L_Varga said:
those Russian Orthodox belonging to ROCOR (Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia) that I have met. They believed that ABC is always wrong

Perhaps the ones you have met have the same spiritual father who knows their situation and knows each of their situations and has made the decision that their situation does not call for ABC. There is not a blanket “Yes, it’s okay” and their is not a blanket “No, it’s not okay” when it comes to ABC. I may be Greek Orthodox, but my spiritual father is Russian Orthodox.

The Orthodox is much more personable than that - we each have a spiritual father who leads us on the straight and narrow path towards theosis (salvation) - most of us it’s true have no need for ABC although some do.

I personally only know of one couple that their spiritual father (the couple and the spiritual father are Greek Orthodox) has given permission for ABC in the form of a visectomy because they already have 8 children and the wife nearly died giving birth to their 8th child and has been told by her doctor that the next pregnancy will kill her - literally. They also have a very special needs child which has them spending on average of $50,000. a year for medical costs not covered under their health plan. To my knowledge the couple has not yet gone through with the visectomy although the permission was granted by their spiritual father about 3 years ago. They have remained celibate which has caused a huge rift in their marriage.

Permission to use ABC may be granted in certain situations like this, but it is certainly not forced on a couple.

Could anyone comment on the stance of other Orthodox Churches (e.g. Antiochian, OCA, Serbian, etc.) on ABC?

Truly there is no need for joint statements as each of us are subject to our own bishop and spiritual father - but you will find plenty of joint statements on issues on the SCOBA website, perhaps you’ll find one there on ABC.

You may notice that the Russian Church has chosen not to join SCOBA - membership is voluntary and is up the Bishop or Archbishop in charge of a particular Church in the United States. Membership doesn’t make a particular Church any more or less Orthodox.

Orthodox is Orthodox is Orthodox. Doesn’t matter which nationality you list before it: Greek, Russian, Serbian, etc. The Faith is identical, the Liturgies (Divine, Pre-Sanctified, etc.) are identical, the Spiritual Life is identical, etc. For 2,000 years this has been the case…and we’ve never had a Pope.

Even with a Pope, such unity is not found within the Catholic Churches 12+ Rites…and not even just within the Roman Rite - Faith is all over the map - some are faithful to the Pope, some are faithful to their Bishop, some just to their priest, (often times these 3 individuals teach a completely different Faith than the other - leaving the laity completely confused on what is and what is not Catholci), Liturgy is all over the map - just depends on which Roman Catholic Church you visit or which priest happens to be presiding over Mass that day, Spiritual Life is mostly non-existent as most Catholics don’t even have a spiritual father and yet some do.

Working in a Catholic Bookstore, I often hear people say things like, "Oh, such and such is my Church, but I don’t go there anymore I go to such and such Church now because they have a “good” priest. In Orthodoxy, I’ve never heard of such a thing as a “good” priest as opposed to a “bad” priest - all the priests are “good” if there ever was a “bad” priest he’d be defrocked by the Bishop.
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Regarding the couple where the mother almost died during childbirth, do they have access to some pro-life doctors? I would search out an ob-gyn doctor who is solidly pro-life, and get his opinion about what happened, why did the mother almost die, and what are the risks if she ever happens to fall pregnant again! Also, learn natural family planning (NFP), the incidence of unwanted pregnancy can be as low as 0.1-0.5%, when the method is correctly executed with the monitoring of body temperature and cervical mucus, which will indicate the time of ovulation with very high accuracy, and it is not that difficult to learn.

I think it’s good they didn’t do the vasectomy (male sterilization). Both male and female sterilization strike me as a culture of death thing, or “culture of death and self-mutilation” if you wish.

I’ve met TOO MANY doctors who have given in to the culture of death, they regard abortion and the killing of disabled babies as nothing special, and I have come to think that this will even distort the professional opinions of said doctors - at least that’s what happened in my mother’s case. Both my mother and (older) sister almost died when my sister was born, and then the ob-gyn insisted and pushed the mantra that “next time my mother will die, and she must get an abortion because the next childbirth will kill her”. Of course this put a great fear into my mother’s heart - and in retrospect the whole assessment proved an error and even a cover-up of the gynecologist’s mistake which almost caused the death of my mother and sister. That’s why I feel for this couple you mentioned, and strongly advise them to get a second opinion from a solid, committed pro-life ob-gyn doctor. In my mother’s case, they knew my sister was inverted in the womb and they should have performed a C-section, but they didn’t do it - and both my mom and sister had a cardiac arrest and almost died - but this situation could have been avoided! Then, instead of admitting their mistake, they simply advised my mother to have an abortion next time, because it’s too risky for her to have any more children. However her next pregnancy with me was uneventful and no complications arose during my birth, but still, these doctors managed to frighten my mom and she went through the pregnancy fully expecting to die at my birth. The doctors involved were apparently cool with abortion and this obviously influenced their whole attitude and the “professional advice” they gave to my mother.

That’s why I say your acquaintances should take heart and visit a pro-life doctor for a reassessment of the risks associated with pregnancy and to adopt a NFP method.

Thanks for the advice with SCOBA website.

In the Catholic Church, the teaching is so clearly spelled out in the Cathechism of the Catholic Church, and this is definitely available in the USA and European countries, I assume it’s probably available anywhere on this planet Earth, and all Catholic rites must follow this, down from the Pope and Bishops, to all Catholic priests and the faithful. Historically, I read John Paul II’s biography (Witness of hope) and that describes how in the 1960’s during the 2nd Vatican Council, there was a specialized committee that included ethics and medical specialists, and came up with the recommendation that the “pill” should be rejected just like other forms of ABC. Then, Pope Paul VI’s Humanae Vitae gave a clear teaching in 1968, and thus I think the Catholic teaching was settled well before the Catechism was compiled.

Of course there will always be nominal Catholics who will dissent and disobey - but those of us on the “narrow road”, listening to and obeying our Pope’s teaching, must not get distracted by such things.
 
there are 3 missing pieces to form an ecumenical council in the orthodox church
  1. the empire
  2. the emperor
  3. the 5 ancient patriarchates
once this is filled up, then there will be another ecumenical council. however, there’s no stopping the bishops to call a general synod but will not be considered ecumenical.
w_stewart said:
If the Orthodox Churches are ONE, how come they do not have a common stand on Artificial Birth Control?
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Alethiaphile said:
Sure, unlike the western church, which has a unified authority that everyone (inlcuding parish priests) ignores on the issue of birth control.
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If the unified authority is speaking the truth, does it really matter if “everyone” ignores them? Isn’t that what Christians are supposed to do - speak the truth “in season and out of season”?

(And by the way … “everyone”? :rolleyes: )
 
Joseph_L_Varga said:
Regarding the couple where the mother almost died during childbirth, do they have access to some pro-life doctors? I would search out an ob-gyn doctor who is solidly pro-life, and get his opinion about what happened, why did the mother almost die, and what are the risks if she ever happens to fall pregnant again!
Yes, they’ve only ever gone to Pro-Life doctors.
Also, learn natural family planning (NFP), the incidence of unwanted pregnancy can be as low as 0.1-0.5%, when the method is correctly executed with the monitoring of body temperature and cervical mucus, which will indicate the time of ovulation with very high accuracy, and it is not that difficult to learn.
Since doing NFP method correctly (with both NFP Councilors and Pro-Life doctor’s help) using all parts of it: temperature, cervical mucus, etc. they’ve had 5 more children. Their doctor has determined that she falls into the narrow category of women for whom NFP does not work for. They’ve told her that she must have 2 separate ovulations some months - one with symtoms and 1 without any.
I think it’s good they didn’t do the vasectomy (male sterilization). Both male and female sterilization strike me as a culture of death thing, or “culture of death and self-mutilation” if you wish. That is your opinion on their private matter which has been discussed with both their spiritual father and their physicians. That avenue is available to them - not sure if they will take it.

That’s why I feel for this couple you mentioned, and strongly advise them to get a second opinion from a solid, committed pro-life ob-gyn doctor. They’ve had plenty of second opinions (2 & 3rd) all done by Pro-Life doctors - all who have come to the same conclusion.

Very sorry to hear about what happened to your mom and sister. Glad they are both alright now.

In the Catholic Church, the teaching is so clearly spelled out in the Cathechism of the Catholic Church, and this is definitely available in the USA and European countries, I assume it’s probably available anywhere on this planet Earth, and all Catholic rites must follow this, down from the Pope and Bishops, to all Catholic priests and the faithful. Historically, I read John Paul II’s biography (Witness of hope) and that describes how in the 1960’s during the 2nd Vatican Council, there was a specialized committee that included ethics and medical specialists, and came up with the recommendation that the “pill” should be rejected just like other forms of ABC. Then, Pope Paul VI’s Humanae Vitae gave a clear teaching in 1968, and thus I think the Catholic teaching was settled well before the Catechism was compiled.

This is sad to me because it is clearly not a “One-Size Fits All” situation. The Orthodox Church has always exercised economia in this type of situation in a loving pastoral way - being careful to balance the issue of LIFE with each couple’s life making sure neither is hurt - no abortions and no destroyed marriages and that the major purpose of marriage - namely the procreation of children is honored. The Orthodox Church is much more intimate than the Catholic Church in this regard.

NFP is often used for selfish reasons legitemantly within Catholic Marriages to prevent any children at all or to prevent any children for a certain period of years, such is not the case in Orthodoxy. It can not even be considered until after at least one child(ren) is(are) born into the marriage.
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spiritual contraception breeds physical contraception. For what begins in the soul is eventually manifest in the flesh.

Therefore, it does not surprise the faithful of the TRUE Church, which is to say, the Church under Peter, who alone possesses the infallible fullness of apostolicity, that those who sever themselves from Christ’s Body, and contracept against a particular source of divine Revelation, which is what the schismatics do to Peter, and the heretics to the whole of the Apostolic Successors, that they should also deny the language of full gift and reception in the most precious sacramental sign on earth, the marital covenant.

For the schismatic says, I shall receive all from the Christ EXCEPT Peter, so why not the woman shall she say, I do not fully receive from my husband, but require him to place a barrier between our love.

For one’s spiritual condition becomes incarnate in the flesh. Just as spiritual lies, which are spiritual murder, when they become full grown, become physical murder.

which is to say, in the beginning, the beast seduces one with peaceful utopia, but the end result of death to God is death on earth: Armageddon.
 
spauline said:
For the schismatic says, I shall receive all from the Christ EXCEPT Peter, so why not the woman shall she say, I do not fully receive from my husband, but require him to place a barrier between our love. The Holy Orthodox Church is not schismatic, it is the Church that Christ established. Holy Orthodoxy has maintained all the Traditions as they were handed down to us from Jesus through His Apostles with the Holy Spirit continued guidance. Sts. Peter and Paul are highly venerated in our Church - we simply venerate him for who he actually is, not what the Catholic Church has tried to change him into.

For one’s spiritual condition becomes incarnate in the flesh. Just as spiritual lies, which are spiritual murder, when they become full grown, become physical murder. No Church has been more consistantly against abortion than the Orthodox Church. Just take a look at our Canons if you have any doubt.

The Orthodox Church simply realizes that there is a difference between abortive birth control and non-abortive birth control. The general stance of the Orthodox Church is against the use of all birth control unless there is a reason that their spiritual father may bless a particular couple to use birth control, provided that they have already had a child or children as is needed to obey God’s Commandment of “Be Fruitful and Multiply”.

It’s my understanding that in the Catholic Church a couple can purposely, without any spiritual direction at all - since most do not even have a spiritual father or mother available to them - use NFP or similar methods to prevent conception of any children during the life of their marriage and still be able to receive Holy Eucharist in the Roman Catholic Church. This is scandlous especially in light of God’s Commandment and the Traditions of the Holy Orthodox Faith (which the Catholic Church used to be a part of.)
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I have many Orthodox friends; only two, who are “geeks” like me 😛 has a spiritual father.
 
mercygate said:
I have many Orthodox friends; only two, who are “geeks” like me 😛 has a spiritual father.
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How sad. I do not know where I would be without my spiritual father. Hey wait a minute, are you calling us geeks? 😛
 
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