Orthodoxy and Catholicism

[rad]

Russian Orthodox theologian Georges Florovsky praised Soloviev in his effort to reunite Russian Orthodoxy with Catholicism.

He also said,

Theological thought grew out of the habit of lending its ear to the heartbeat of the Church. And it was losing access to this heart.

This has caused not only substitution of theology by religious philosophy, but also, by now habitual, substitution of the Church dogmas by theologumena (private theological opinions). Confusion of ideas and concepts of those times has determined the further destiny of the pseudo-Orthodox religious philosophy. The objective was reached: the heresy of Sophianism and other forms of theological modernism were firmly introduced into the life of the “universal Orthodoxy”.

Prot. Georgii Florovsky, “The Ways of Russian Theology”

 

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I have also heard this rumor. Yet, I’ve also heard rumor to the contrary. He himself never failed to admit to be a member of the Russian Orthodox Church.

…
So, instead of going off hearsay, I instead presume he held faithful communion with the Russian Orthodox Church as he himself claimed, unless contrary claimants manifest evidence which shows otherwise.

“Soloviev was received into communion with the Holy See as a Russian Byzantine Catholic on February 18, 1896 by Fr.Nicholas Tolstoy, the first Russian Byzantine Catholic priest”

rumkatkilise.org/necplus.htm

With regard to a so-called fourth person of the Diety, he states nothing of the sort in his work, *Russia and the Universal Church. *Nor have I ever read any writing of Soloviev stating this claim. .

“Elevating a supposed “feminine principle,” reified as “sophia,” to ontological inherence in the Godhead is idolatry.”

"All things existed for Solovyov in “all-unity” (useedinsevo) with God. In a manner reminiscent of the pantheist idealist thought of G. F. W. Hegel, the emergent evolutionism of Henri Bergson (1859-1941), and of the whole ancient theosophic, gnostic occult tradition, he postulated that God Himself was seeking self-expression, and even self-realization, in and through His creation, and taught that “evolution is not through materialistic means but through creative spirit.”

“Man must strive for self-realization within this unity with God through “sophia,” and also through his own creative experience. All this is thoroughly heretical from the biblical point of view. Elevating a supposed “feminine principle,” reified as “sophia,” to ontological inherence in the Godhead is idolatry.”

creationism.org/csshs/v16n4p11.htm

 

[rad]

I have also heard this rumor. Yet, I’ve also heard rumor to the contrary. He himself never failed to admit to be a member of the Russian Orthodox Church.

Roman Catholic sources say that after his reception into the Catholic Church he was refused Orthodox communion.

Please see the article by Ray Ryland on the Catholic Answers site.

“Which was Soloviev’s church? Was he “Orthodox”? Was he Catholic? The data we have are confusing. Soloviev was raised in the Russian Orthodox Church. In 1896 he made a profession of faith in the Catholic Church before an Eastern-rite priest. That priest received him into the Church and gave him Communion.** A year later Soloviev became ill and asked a Russian priest to give him Communion. Knowing that Soloviev had earlier been received into the Catholic Church, the priest refused.”**

catholic.com/thisrock/1996/9601fea2.asp

He was in a position like that of Vassoula Ryden. She claims to be both Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox. However the Greek Orthodox Church issued a statement of her excommunication and she cannot have communion in Orthodox churches. But she still receives communion in Catholic churches.

 

[Peter_J]

Please see the article by Ray Ryland on the Catholic Answers site.

Fr. Ray Ryland is one of the most anti-Orthodox priests in the Catholic Church. I would prefer not to read anything written by him.

 

[mardukm]

"All things existed for Solovyov in “all-unity” (useedinsevo) with God. In a manner reminiscent of the pantheist idealist thought of G. F. W. Hegel, the emergent evolutionism of Henri Bergson (1859-1941), and of the whole ancient theosophic, gnostic occult tradition, he postulated that God Himself was seeking self-expression, and even self-realization, in and through His creation, and taught that “evolution is not through materialistic means but through creative spirit.”

“Man must strive for self-realization within this unity with God through “sophia,” and also through his own creative experience. All this is thoroughly heretical from the biblical point of view. Elevating a supposed “feminine principle,” reified as “sophia,” to ontological inherence in the Godhead is idolatry.”

creationism.org/csshs/v16n4p11.htm

Do you have any DIRECT quotes from Soloviev to back up this accusation? I didn’t see any in the link provided. The prniciple of “Sophia” (i.e., wisdom) is often used by the early Church Fathers as a poetic device when they spoke of God, or Jesus, or the Holy Spirit. Could not Soloviev have been using the term in a similar manner?

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[rad]

The principle of “Sophia” (wisdom) is often used by the early Church Fathers as a poetic device when they spoke of God, or Jesus, or the Holy Spirit.

Yes, this is of course true. This has always been an aspect of the Church’s tradition.

This is from a Russian author.

"As used in the Bible the term Sophia designates a general attribute of Divinity, His all-wise authority, as well as His superior reason.

"The terms which personify Wisdom, commonly used in the Old Testament, especially in the passages which are linked to the New Testament, and the revelation of Christ, were unanimously seen by the Fathers as the Ipostasis of the Son of God. For example, such is the general Church understanding of words about Wisdom-Sophia contained in the Book of Proverbs.

"The Acts of the First, Third, Sixth and the Seventh Ecumenical Councils witness the fact that all Orthodox Church applied the term Divine Wisdom to the Second Divine Ipostasis. In this way the First Ecumenical Council spoke of the inscrutable Wisdom, “Which created everything that was created”, – of the uncreated, unoriginate Wisdom, Wisdom without beginning i.e. of Christ, because Christ is God’s Power and God’s Wisdom (1 Cor. 1,24)

"In the Acts of the Seventh Ecumenical Council we read: “Our Lord Jesus Christ, our true God, the self-existing Wisdom of God the Father, Who manifested Himself in the flesh, and by His great and divine economy set us free us from the snares of idolatry, clothed Himself in our nature, restored it through the cooperation of the Spirit”.

“From the most ancient times and onwards many Orthodox countries have been consecrating churches to the Lord Jesus Christ as the Wisdom of God”. This fact also confirms that the words “Wisdom of God” refers to the Second Divine Ipostasis."

Could not Soloviev have been using the term in a similar manner?

Now let us examine ourselves and see if we are able to affirm that this Church-conscious understanding of Sophia as outlined above is compatible with Solovyov’'s Sophia?

Do you have any DIRECT quotes from Soloviev to back up this accusation? I didn’t see any in the link provided.

It is not easy to locate Solovyov’s writings. Much of it is still only in the Russian and German language. With some effort we can locate his works in major libraries. Most of us are sufficiently content with the assessments made by competent Orthodox theologians and scholars. I suppose that this is because we are not normally challenged in our judgment of his religious philosophy and we view him only as a fringe writer who apostasized from the Church. So he is not read and studied by us.

But, knowing that his cause is much celebrated in the Catholic Church and I would think that they have written much more about him than the Orthodox. Do you have access to Catholic assessments of his teaching of Sophiology? Presumably some authority has examined it and passed it as acceptably Catholic or he would not be praised and promoted and recommended (even by the Pope himself) to the extent that he is in the Catholic Church.

 

[Peter_J]

"The Acts of the First, Third, Sixth and the Seventh Ecumenical Councils witness the fact that all Orthodox Church applied the term Divine Wisdom to the Second Divine Ipostasis. In this way the First Ecumenical Council spoke of the inscrutable Wisdom, “Which created everything that was created”, – of the uncreated, unoriginate Wisdom, Wisdom without beginning i.e. of Christ, because Christ is God’s Power and God’s Wisdom (1 Cor. 1,24)

I was confused here for a sec. In case anyone else is similarly confused, “Ipostasis” is more commonly spelled “Hypostasis” in English.

Most of us are sufficiently content with the assessments made by competent Orthodox theologians and scholars. I suppose that this is because we are not normally challenged in our judgment of his religious philosophy and we view him only as a fringe writer who apostasized from the Church. So he is not read and studied by us.

Personally, I would prefer to just entrust Soloviev and his writings to our merciful God. But I can understand how it’s difficult to do that, given what PJPII said about him – and I can understand why you and your fellow Orthodox feel the need to defend against what you see as dangerous philosophy and/or heresy. (Honestly, I had never heard most of this stuff until you brought it up. I just knew of Soloviev as a rallying point for Catholics attacking the “schismatic Easterners”.)

 

[Volodymyr]

."

It is not easy to locate Solovyov’s writings. Much of it is still only in the Russian and German language.

It is obvious from what is written above that most widely known in West of VS Solov’jov’s writing is his French monograph about Catholic Church. His philosophical ideas are contained in such writings is **Cмысл любви ** (The concept of love) . Oправдание Добра (Justification of Good) . Чтения о богочеловечестве (Writings about Divine-Human) , **история и будущность теократии ** (History and future of theocratia). The compete works of Solov’jov arre available from Life with God (Жизнь с Богом) pubishers in Brussels Belgium. These include his odd but beautiful symbolical poems, and all his letters.

His very odd belief system in the world spirit (мировая душа) which separated from God and therefore made the world evil even before Sin-Fall of Adam and Eva are well shown. Humanity and history have purpose to make world-spirit merge with Sofia (wisdom) who also exists eternally in God, but unlike world-soul did not choose to separate from God. Vladimir Sergievich’s belief in after-live is much difficult to understand - that uniting to God souls become accustomed to space and time. In such philosophy he found it quite easy then to believe he could be at the same time Catolic and Orthodox because he believed something else was going to come about - theocratia. His idea of “Union of Churches” is not that Orthodoxy becomes part of Catolic church but that the united churches would be organically different when universal Theocratia comes about.

Rather he wrote: «Что касается до соединения церквей, то я имею в виду не … соединение механическое, которое и нежелательно, и невозможно; я же разумею соединение, так сказать, химическое, при котором обыкновенно происходит нечто весьма отличное от прежнего состояния соединившихся элементов». Translation: As regards the union of Churches, I do not have in view… a mechanical union which is undesirable and impossible; I understand union, so to say, as something chemical, at which ordinarily is produced something completely distinct from the previous state of the uniting elements." (Personal correspondence)

Vladimir Sergievich is sad person seeking purpose but always living in shadow of his - at least at that time - much more famous father, the great historian. His beliefs are so idiosyncratic that quotations from him can justify almost any position. But until you have read the above works - do not be sure that you “understand” this great philosopher, poet and thinker.

 

[valient_Lucy]

I’m not at all well versed in Orthodox theology. (Though I do think I know more than George Costanza. ) Anyway, I just wanted to say that the best thing is to attend both the Divine Liturgy and Mass, pray, and trust in God. Some Protestants feel terrified that they’ll make the wrong choice and suffer judgment from God. Don’t be afraid. Have faith.

 

[Peter_J]

I’m not at all well versed in Orthodox theology. (Though I do think I know more than George Costanza. ) Anyway, I just wanted to say that the best thing is to attend both the Divine Liturgy and Mass, pray, and trust in God. Some Protestants feel terrified that they’ll make the wrong choice and suffer judgment from God. Don’t be afraid. Have faith.

Well said.

BTW, are they that group that goes around mutilating squirrels?

 

[Nicholas82]

I’m not at all well versed in Orthodox theology. (Though I do think I know more than George Costanza. ) Anyway, I just wanted to say that the best thing is to attend both the Divine Liturgy and Mass, pray, and trust in God. Some Protestants feel terrified that they’ll make the wrong choice and suffer judgment from God. Don’t be afraid. Have faith.

Who wouldn’t like to be Latvian Orthodox, even just for the ‘hats’

 

[Peter_J]

Who wouldn’t like to be Latvian Orthodox, even just for the ‘hats’

I’ve never been too clear about that group. Which Apostle was Latvius the son of?

 

[valient_Lucy]

Who wouldn’t like to be Latvian Orthodox, even just for the ‘hats’

Oh, the hats are exactly what one wants in a faith. Very pious. Not to mention, the knowledge to ward off the dangerous Kavorkah, the “lure of the animal!”