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holdencaulfield
Guest
Lets start a discussion between the Orthodox and Catholics over the Papacy.
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holdencaulfield
Guest
I would like to have an in depth conversation on these following quotes from the Early Church Fathers.
St. Peter as the Rock
St. Origen
"And Peter, on whom the Church of Christ is built, against which the gates of hell shall not prevail…” (Origen, Commentary on John, 5:3)
St. John Chrysostom
"But see, throughout all, His authority: “I say unto you, You are Peter; I will build the Church; I will give you the keys of Heaven.” (Homilies on Matthew 54:3)
St. Jerome
“As I follow no leader save Christ, so I communicate with none but your blessedness, that is with the chair of Peter. For this, I know, is the rock on which the church is built!” (Letters 15:2)
Primacy of the Bishop of Rome
St. Clement of Rome
“The church of God which sojourns at Rome to the church of God which sojourns at Corinth … But if any disobey the words spoken by him through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and in no small danger.” (First Epistle 59:1)
St. Ignatius of Antioch
“You [the church at Rome] have envied no one, but others you have taught. I desire only that what you have enjoined in your instructions may remain in force” (Letter to the Romans 3:1)
St. Irenaeus
“Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its pre- eminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3:3:2 (A.D. 180).
St. Peter as the Rock
St. Origen
"And Peter, on whom the Church of Christ is built, against which the gates of hell shall not prevail…” (Origen, Commentary on John, 5:3)
St. John Chrysostom
"But see, throughout all, His authority: “I say unto you, You are Peter; I will build the Church; I will give you the keys of Heaven.” (Homilies on Matthew 54:3)
St. Jerome
“As I follow no leader save Christ, so I communicate with none but your blessedness, that is with the chair of Peter. For this, I know, is the rock on which the church is built!” (Letters 15:2)
Primacy of the Bishop of Rome
St. Clement of Rome
“The church of God which sojourns at Rome to the church of God which sojourns at Corinth … But if any disobey the words spoken by him through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and in no small danger.” (First Epistle 59:1)
St. Ignatius of Antioch
“You [the church at Rome] have envied no one, but others you have taught. I desire only that what you have enjoined in your instructions may remain in force” (Letter to the Romans 3:1)
St. Irenaeus
“Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its pre- eminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3:3:2 (A.D. 180).
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Alexius
Guest
I’m not sure there are many Orthodox left and of those who are, they’re probably still recovering from my long “Papal Problems” thread…
Prayers and petitions,
Alexius
Prayers and petitions,
Alexius
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holdencaulfield
Guest
You think that they have given up on arguing against the Papacy. Could you maybe show me some of your work from the other thread. Thanks.I’m not sure there are many Orthodox left and of those who are, they’re probably still recovering from my long “Papal Problems” thread…
Prayers and petitions,
Alexius
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Alexius
Guest
I think both sides exhausted themselves–It’s 57 pages long…You think that they have given up on arguing against the Papacy. Could you maybe show me some of your work from the other thread. Thanks.
It’s honestly hard to pick out good arguments because at times it fell into pointless bickering. Probably the best arguments are at the beginning where Honorius and others are disected.
Here is the link:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=219831
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holdencaulfield
Guest
Yes, it does look interesting. However I think I am finally coming to a realization that both Churches have grown and changed over time. I think that from the Early Church Fathers, it has been proven that although Rome didn’t always have a supreme word on things, that it did have the final teaching authority on things and that it did have some sort of Primacy. Just as the Eastern Church has grown so has the Roman Church. When the Roman Church was free of the Eastern Church it had the ability to grow at a faster rate because it wasn’t hindered by the Eastern Church. Were some of the changes maybe wrong, I don’t know, however because the Roman Church holds the Throne of St. Peter, it doesn’t matter. However I think that the Church needs a visible head Bishop, otherwise who knows what is right and wrong. I have been worrying about the Papacy and Orthodoxy and which one is correct for quite some time, however I can’t really say either is right on these matters. However for the time being I will follow the Bishop of Rome, Pope Benedict XVI who I believe to hold the Throne given to St. Peter above the other Apostles.
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josephdaniel29
Guest
Wow so you admit that you’re not sure if Rome is wrong or not but that in your mind it doesn’t matter because Rome has the “Throne of Peter”? That’s exactly the reason Rome has abandoned so many of the old Apostolic patterns of faith and worship. For Catholics a single man the Pope is more important than fidelity to the Apostolic faith.
Yours in Christ
Joe
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josephdaniel29
Guest
Well we can play dueling quotes, it’ll be fun.
St Cyprian
For neither does any of us set himself up as a bishop of bishops, nor by tyrannical terror does any compel his colleague to the necessity of obedience; since every bishop, according to the allowance of his liberty and power, has his own proper right of judgment, and can no more be judged by another than he himself can judge another (council of Carthage 256 AD)
St Cyprian
*But that they who are at Rome do not observe those things in all cases which are handed down from the beginning, and **vainly pretend the authority of the apostles ***(The Epistles of Cyprian Letter LXXIV.6)
Origen
*But if you suppose that upon the one Peter only the whole church is built by God, what would you say about John the son of thunder or each one of the Apostles? Shall we otherwise dare to say, that against Peter in particular the gates of Hades shall not prevail, but that they shall prevail against the other Apostles and the perfect? Does not the saying previously made, ‘The gates of Hades shall not prevail against it,’ hold in regard to all and in the case of each of them? And also the saying, ‘Upon this rock I will build My Church?’ Are the keys of the kingdom of heaven given by the Lord to Peter only, and will no other of the blessed receive them? But if this promise, ‘I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven,’ be common to others, how shall not all things previously spoken of, and the things which are subjoined as having been addressed to Peter, be common to them? *(Origen commentary on Matthew)
St Augustine
So this disciple is called Rocky from the rock, like Christian from Christ…Why have I wanted to make this little introduction? In order to suggest to you that in Peter the Church is to be recognized. Christ, you see, built his Church not on a man but on Peter’s confession. (St Augustine sermons)
St Augustine
Well, let us suppose that those bishops who decided the case at Rome were not good judges; there still remained a plenary Council of the universal Church, in which these judges themselves might be put on their defense; so that, if they were convicted of mistake, their decisions might be reversed (Confessions)
St John Chrysostom
”For the Son of thunder, the beloved of Christ, the pillar of the Churches throughout the world, who holds the keys of heaven, who drank the cup of Christ, and was baptized with His baptism, who lay upon his Master’s bosom, with much confidence, this man now comes forward to us now” (Homilies on the Gospel of John, Homily 1.1)
St John Chrysostom
*Do you not see that the headship was in the hands of these three, especially of Peter **and *James? This was the chief cause of their condemnation by Herod (Homilies on the Acts of the Apostles, Homily XXVI)
Yours in Christ
Joe
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Mickey
Guest
It is because of statements such as this that the Orthodox have become weary of participating in such threads.
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wisdomseeker
Guest
“It is wonderful that we Christians may share in the holy supper of the Lord whether it is done in memoriam as we evangelicals believe or by transubstantiation as Catholics do. Blessings.”
(this a message from my presbyterian friend.)
I would like to start a thread on this subject. my friend seems to think that it is ok to believe whatever. she makes me think that truth is what i believe. i believe therefore it must be true. as for me on the other hand do not agree with this concept to me the truth is what Jesus meant by what He says. i dont want this argument to come between our friendship so i must be very carefull how to refute her believe.
anyone out there have any opinion on this?
(this a message from my presbyterian friend.)
I would like to start a thread on this subject. my friend seems to think that it is ok to believe whatever. she makes me think that truth is what i believe. i believe therefore it must be true. as for me on the other hand do not agree with this concept to me the truth is what Jesus meant by what He says. i dont want this argument to come between our friendship so i must be very carefull how to refute her believe.
anyone out there have any opinion on this?
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Mickey
Guest
Are you perhaps on the wrong thread?
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Hesychios
Guest
Holden has a point though. Obviously he is thinking of this “growth” as a positive thing. A natural assumption for a westerner.It is because of statements such as this that the Orthodox have become weary of participating in such threads.
Even if one thinks of this "growth’ as what it really is, he’s ironically correct. The withdrawal from Holy Orthodoxy “unfettered” the church of the west, allowing it to introduce all manner of innovations…and errors. The really numerous changes in the western church occured shortly after the schism.
And innovations are continually being proposed, it’s a non-stop process now. Cardinals are starting a “petition” to have a new dogma proclaimed, yet again! Firstly they have bought into the peculiar notion that a single bishop of the church can proclaim dogma for all the rest, and secondly they they presume to be able to legitimately influence that process by applying public pressure on him. Presumably they expect the prestige of their offices (an office that did not exist in the early church) to add some weight and influence to their cause.
That’s how warped the whole process has become, people actually think the catechism of Faith could be, or should be, influenced by petition. Martin Luther should have been a Cardinal.
What happened to the “Faith once received through the Apostles” ? Did not this Faith save people in Jesus’ lifetime…in the first century and in the second? What is the driving motive to invent new doctrine? The early Church only proclaimed dogma in reaction to innovators and their excesses. It was never a case of introducing new ideas for their own sake, but of paring back on the new, reining in on the innovators.
Just by admitting that such a process…introducing new beliefs…is reasonable or even desirable, the church is demonstrating an active will to detach itself from it’s own origin in the Cenacle.
This is dangerous, and no Ortthodox church will come close to these people as long as they persist in that kind of thinking. Modern RC churchmen and followers like Holden are guaranteeing that there will be no reconciliation with Holy Orthodoxy.
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East_and_West
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flameburns623
Guest
Oh no! Has Father Ambrose deserted us? He was one of the most-ascerbic and yet most-educational and entertaining Orthodox on the forum.I’m not sure there are many Orthodox left and of those who are, they’re probably still recovering from my long “Papal Problems” thread…
Prayers and petitions,
Alexius
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Mickey
Guest
I stand corrected.
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bpbasilphx
Guest
St. Origen
Origien is not a saint of the Church.
Origien is not a saint of the Church.
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wisdomseeker
Guest
My big question is: was the Church suppost to stop at some point? when and why? who can determine if the Church is right or wrong?
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wisdomseeker
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wisdomseeker
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:crying: :crying: :crying: :crying: :crying: :crying: :crying:
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holdencaulfield
Guest
However this gets us no where. Some Church Fathers take the position for the Papacy and some against.
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