Orthodoxy and the Papacy.

[ForeverAdam]

Catholic teaching does not say a Pope can teach heresy to the universal Church while speaking ex cathedra. Please stop misrepresenting the Faith and teachings of the Church in your deceptive attempt to discredit it.

I’ve never argued on this forum or anywhere else that papal infallibility extends beyond the act of proclaiming dogmas (speaking “ex cathedra”). My purpose in bringing up the possibility of papal heresy is to anchor the interpretation that many Roman Catholics on this forum give to various patristic quotations referring to the faith of Rome, her bishop and their role in defending doctrine in the early Church. While the possibility of papal heresy, itself, doesn’t rule out infallibility when making dogmas, as this could be argued as being a different issue entirely, it does rule out a possibly heretical Pope from being the final arbiter of truth in the Church against whom there is no appeal, as potential heretics cannot be wisely accorded this authority.

Why do you also continue to quote St. Augustine to further your argument? Do you also believe his teaching on Original Sin? Or will you continue to pick and choose?

St. Augustine’s opinion on original sin is a red herring. And, as a great saint of the Orthodox Church, I have every right to quote him. And as a worthy saint of your own Church, you have every obligation to explain his words.

God bless,

Adam

 

[Servus_Pio_XII]

Fr. Wrenn’s list contradicts Vatican authoritative teaching and is DISSENTING.

Then post the source.

N.B. - “dissenting” in capital letters is not a sufficient source to back this claim, you must counter his.

Why do you also continue to quote St. Augustine to further your argument? Do you also believe his teaching on Original Sin? Or will you continue to pick and choose?

Fathers are not infallible.

Hence why we may quote Origen from time to time, whilst rejecting his belief in apokatastasis.

 

[ForeverAdam]

The Pope always has the last word on everything. It doesn’t matter if someone disagrees, they cannot argue with the Pope.

Popes can still be heretics.

These are mutually exclusive statements and the first statement is a non-sequitur. Unless you’re willing to extend papal infallibility beyond ex cathedra statements, the above statement is basically stating that one cannot disagree or argue with the Pope even when he teaches heresy. I think you need to check your exegesis of patristic quotations, as things are not adding up.

God bless,

Adam

 

[jam070406]

I’ve never argued on this forum or anywhere else that papal infallibility extends beyond the act of proclaiming dogmas (speaking “ex cathedra”). My purpose in bringing up the possibility of papal heresy is to anchor the interpretation that many Roman Catholics on this forum give to various patristic quotations referring to the faith of Rome, her bishop and their role in defending doctrine in the early Church. While the possibility of papal heresy, itself, doesn’t rule out infallibility when making dogmas, as this could be argued as being a different issue entirely, it does rule out a possibly heretical Pope from being the final arbiter of truth in the Church against whom there is no appeal, as potential heretics cannot be wisely accorded this authority.

St. Augustine’s opinion on original sin is a red herring. And, as a great saint of the Orthodox Church, I have every right to quote him. And as a worthy saint of your own Church, you have every obligation to explain his words.

God bless,

Adam

You left out the part about the Pope teaching Faith and morals that are to be binding on the universal Church. Also a condition of Infallibility. Perhaps this is where your confusion stems from.

 

[jam070406]

Then post the source.

N.B. - “dissenting” in capital letters is not a sufficient source to back this claim, you must counter his.

It’s a direct quote from the link provided by bobzills. HIS source claims Fr. Wrenn is not a reliable source.

 

[Servus_Pio_XII]

It’s a direct quote from the link provided by bobzills. HIS source claims Fr. Wrenn is not a reliable source.

Really? Here’s another:

"As a non-profit incorporation, the magisterium of the Catholic Church has no authority over the work of the CLSA other than the authority exercised by bishops over the individual members in their home states. CLSA was receiving free office and storage space from Catholic University of America, but they were asked to leave, and they moved out in April of 2004. "

So I ask again, show me the Vatican’s list. Until there [bad grammar mistake - I need a nun with a ruler to slice off my left hand for that one!] is one, the annulment of a marriage is subject to such interpretations as his, despite arguments to the contrary by groups such as this.

 

[jam070406]

St. Augustine’s opinion on original sin is a red herring. And, as a great saint of the Orthodox Church, I have every right to quote him. And as a worthy saint of your own Church, you have every obligation to explain his words.

God bless,

Adam

Why? You reject his teachings. Why use him as a reliable source then?
I don’t have to explain his words. I can tell you what the Church teaches based on official Church teaching, either you accept it or reject it.

 

[Servus_Pio_XII]

Why? You reject his teachings. Why use him as a reliable source then?
I don’t have to explain his words. I can tell you what the Church teaches based on official Church teaching, either you accept it or reject it.

One word:

Origen.

 

[jam070406]

Really? Here’s another:

"As a non-profit incorporation, the magisterium of the Catholic Church has no authority over the work of the CLSA other than the authority exercised by bishops over the individual members in their home states. CLSA was receiving free office and storage space from Catholic University of America, but they were asked to leave, and they moved out in April of 2004. "

So I ask again, show me the Vatican’s list. Until their is one, the annulment of a marriage is subject to such interpretations as his, despite arguments to the contrary by groups such as this.

I agree, it was a horrible source.

You’re a crafty dude, I’m sure you’re more than capable of googling it yourself or contacting the organization that made such claims.
How do you know there is a “list” anyway?

 

[jam070406]

One word:

Origen.

 

[ForeverAdam]

You left out the part about the Pope teaching Faith and morals that are to be binding on the universal Church. Also a condition of Infallibility. Perhaps this is where your confusion stems from.

A dogma is a teaching on faith and/or morals that is binding on the Church. This statement in Vatican I is an additional clarification on the pope’s infallibility when proclaiming dogmas (as is the mention of the Pope teaching as “shepherd and teacher of all Christians”). It doesn’t pertain to non-dogmatic infallibility. I’m surprised you didn’t know this, jam, as you seem quite devout in your Faith.

God bless,

Adam

 

[jam070406]

A dogma is a teaching on faith and/or morals that is binding on the Church. This statement in Vatican I is an additional clarification on the pope’s infallibility when proclaiming dogmas (as is the mention of the Pope teaching as “shepherd and teacher of all Christians”). It doesn’t pertain to non-dogmatic infallibility. I’m surprised you didn’t know this, jam, as you seem quite devout in your Faith.

God bless,

Adam

Thanks. Sorry, sometimes your posts make my head spin (no offense).

 

[Servus_Pio_XII]

I agree, it was a horrible source.

You’re a crafty dude, I’m sure you’re more than capable of googling it yourself or contacting the organization that made such claims.
How do you know there is a “list” anyway?

I don’t, but if there isn’t…we haven’t a way to invalidate the good Father’s list.

Crafty…I’m not sure I like that word. Sounds like some sort of devilry.

Origen is one of the earliest of Church Fathers. He is not canonised because, despite all of his orthodox beliefs, he professed to the apokatastasis - the final restoration of all things and the destruction of Hell.

Yet, this one error on the part of this fallible Father, although it has kept him from canonisation for two millenia, does not necessarily invalidate his usefulness as a source or ECF. This is evinced even by the OP, who quoted him to support the Catholic position.

How much more reliable, then, is St. Augustine, whose teachings, tho they occasionally fall into non-heretical…uniqueness, did not keep him from the sainthood?

The point is, you don’t have to agree with everything a Father says for a quotation of his to be valid.

 

[ForeverAdam]

Why? You reject his teachings. Why use him as a reliable source then?

Orthodoxy rejects nothing said by St. Augustine, which is reflected by other Fathers. Our saint’s words on St. Peter and the equality of the apostles and their successors are reflected by others in the ancient Church and are thus seen as authentically Catholic.

I don’t have to explain his words. I can tell you what the Church teaches based on official Church teaching, either you accept it or reject it.

Your Church claims to be the true Church of the Fathers and this apostolate writes tracts featuring many quotations of the Father on various and sundry topics. Judging from this, I had assumed that Catholicism places much value on the teachings of our God-bearing Fathers and would always respond to an invitation to explain their words, instead of making an appeal to bind institutional faith. I expected better, my friend. I really did.

Goodnight and God bless,

Adam

 

[ForeverAdam]

How much more reliable, then, is St. Augustine, whose teachings, tho they occasionally fall into non-heretical…uniqueness, did not keep him from the sainthood?

The point is, you don’t have to agree with everything a Father says for a quotation of his to be valid.

Thank you, Servus. You’ve expressed my feelings perfectly.

 

[jam070406]

I don’t, but if there isn’t…we haven’t a way to invalidate the good Father’s list.

Crafty…I’m not sure I like that word. Sounds like some sort of devilry.

Origen is one of the earliest of Church Fathers. He is not canonised because, despite all of his orthodox beliefs, he professed to the apokatastasis - the final restoration of all things and the destruction of Hell.

Yet, this one error on the part of this fallible Father, although it has kept him from canonisation for two millenia, does not necessarily invalidate his usefulness as a source or ECF. This is evinced even by the OP, who quoted him to support the Catholic position.

How much more reliable, then, is St. Augustine, whose teachings, tho they occasionally fall into non-heretical…uniqueness, did not keep him from the sainthood?

The point is, you don’t have to agree with everything a Father says for a quotation of his to be valid.

Sorry for calling you crafty.

Like I said, you then begin to pick and choose. It then comes down what YOU deem as valid. The RCC recognizes Augustine’s teaching on Original Sin as Truth. What makes you the authority to claim it as not so? And why is he not rejected as a heretic by your Church if you believe his teachings to be false?

 

[jam070406]

Orthodoxy rejects nothing said by St. Augustine, which is reflected by other Fathers. Our saint’s words on St. Peter and the equality of the apostles and their successors are reflected by others in the ancient Church and are thus seen as authentically Catholic.

Your Church claims to be the true Church of the Fathers and this apostolate writes tracts featuring many quotations of the Father on various and sundry topics. Judging from this, I had assumed that Catholicism places much value on the teachings of our God-bearing Fathers and would always respond to an invitation to explain their words, instead of making an appeal to bind institutional faith. I expected better, my friend. I really did.

Goodnight and God bless,

Adam

I’m not sure what you speak of. Catholics, including myself, have shown you quotes that speak for themselves. You seem to reject them. I never claimed to be an intellectual giant out to out-duel you in intellect. I have Faith, yes. And a deep love for Jesus. I’m sorry I disappoint you.
God bless.

 

[holdencaulfield]

Right. Now if a Pope can err (outside of making dogmas) how can you continue to argue that appeals to the Pope in doctrinal disputes, and acclamations lauding the faith of Rome and her bishop, in the ancient Church, mean that the Pope was the final arbiter of truth in the Church? If any Pope can become a heretic, the force of these appeals and acclamations are greatly denudated. In fact, the possibility of any Pope becoming a heretic in any matter of faith places the quotes that you and many of your churchmen are fond of providing into the context of ecclesial custom, appeals and praise to any orthodox bishop, who like the Pope, can err at any time. These words cannot possess an additional ecclesiological significance without an affirmation that fallible bishops can be made the final arbiter of truth in the Church (an affirmation, which isn’t sound).

However making a dogma is the only thing that is possible to be Infallible. If the Pope contradicts prior Tradition than the dogma is not Infallible. Just as an Orthodox Ecumenical Council could go insane and make some random dogma that violates Tradition, you would not deem it as Infallible.

I’m surprised you would say this about a Pope. Does it bother you that every bishop in the Western Church accepted this pope’s supposed heresy at one time?

Yes it does, however at one time the entire Church accepted Arianism. It got over that it will get over this. The Novus Ordo is not heresy it is just abused and can then become heresy.

 

[holdencaulfield]

St. Augustine (415 AD)

“Anyone who would say that even infants who pass from this life without participation in the sacrament [of baptism] shall be made alive in Christ truly goes counter to the preaching of the apostle and condemns the whole Church, where there is great haste in baptizing infants because it is believed without doubt that there is no other way at all in which they can be made alive in Christ” (Letter to Jerome 166:7:21)

St. Athanasius (358 - 362 AD)

“Adam, the first man, altered his course, and through sin death came into the world. . . . When Adam transgressed, sin reached out to all men” [Romans 5:12]. (Discourses Against the Arians 1:51)

 

[holdencaulfield]

** Pope St. Clement I (96 AD)**

The church of God which sojourns at Rome to the church of God which sojourns at Corinth … But if any disobey the words spoken by him through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and in no small danger." (Clement of Rome, Pope, 1st Epistle to the Corinthians 59:1)