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holdencaulfield
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I believe that both of our Churches teach that Baptism must be in the Trinitarian Formula to be valid. I believe that one could be rebaptized if something else happened.
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holdencaulfield
Guest
A Pope can be a heretic. Popes are not always Infallible. When a Pope is speaking Ex Cathedra, if he said something that contradicts previous Tradition, even though he is speaking in a Infallible manner what he says is fallible and not true if it contradicts previous Tradition. Here is an example.
A Pope makes an Ex Cathedra statement (Solemn Magisterium) that the book of 2 Maccabees should not be in the Bible. The Council of Trent (Constant Magisterium) says that 2 Maccabees is in the Bible. Because the statement has contradicted previous Tradition it is untrue and fallible. We are compelled to not listen to that type of statement because it is fallible.
Likewise, if a doctrinal dispute erupted in the Church and the Pope was called to be the final arbiter, and he said something that violates Tradition (Constant Magisterium) we would know that what he was saying was untrue and thus fallible. In order for the crisis to be solved we would either wait for the Pope to recant his beliefs, a new Pope to say he was wrong, or to call a Ecumenical Council.
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Servus_Pio_XII
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Must’ve missed this.
-Orthodox Wiki
orthodoxwiki.org/Church_Fathers
I cannot post a better answer from a Catholic source, which would say the same thing.
My point was not about Original Sin or authority, it was a response to your continued assertion that a man’s opinion cannot be authoritative in one area because of his error in another.
“It should be noted that not all of the Fathers are considered to be saints, and certainly none of them are regarded as infallible, most especially those who fell into heresy, such as Tertullian and Origen. The Orthodox Church looks rather to the consensus patrum—that is, the consensus of the Fathers—for its understanding of the patristic Orthodox faith.”
-Orthodox Wiki
orthodoxwiki.org/Church_Fathers
I cannot post a better answer from a Catholic source, which would say the same thing.
It was also my point, which had nothing to do with doctrines.
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Servus_Pio_XII
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But don’t you see? He cannot be the Final Arbiter of Truth and be held to another standard of Truth!
You have made the point of the Orthodox, and this is the point that the Orthodox themselves have made many times over on this thread!
What is corollary from this statement? If a Pope can be a heretic, then there must be a mechanism for his deposition - but there isn’t, for all actions of the bishops are based on their allegiance and obediance to the Pope. Thus, if he falls into heresy, they have no way to counteract this - even the council is subject to the Pope.
I’m not sure you meant to, and I say this as a Catholic, but you destroy your case if you admit that Popes can be heretics. I’d rethink that sentence.
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holdencaulfield
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Explain, I’m not seeing your point. Sorry I just don’t see what you are getting at.
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Servus_Pio_XII
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I added to the post. See if my addenda clarify my point.
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ForeverAdam
Guest
In other words, the Pope as “final arbiter of truth” is an honorary title, which adds no ecclesiological significance to the Church since it doesn’t give the Pope any more assurance of being right than it does any other member of the episcopacy.
God bless,
Adam
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holdencaulfield
Guest
A Pope can only make a Infallible statement that is in accordance with prior Tradition. If it contradicts it, it is not Infallible.
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ForeverAdam
Guest
And to further elaborate, all quotes stating the necessity of union with Rome, all statements praising the inviolate faith of Rome and those that give praise to her incorruptible head don’t give the Bishop of Rome any more doctrinal authority than other bishops, as they can err like the rest of the episcopacy. These quotes are proved to be honorary and conditional and not doctrinal by the ancient tradition of papal fallibility, which clearly places the Pope on the level of all bishops in his ability to either teach the truth or embrace heresy.
God bless,
Adam
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wynd
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So what then is infallible: the pope’s statement or the tradition it affirms?
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holdencaulfield
Guest
Many of the Early Church Fathers state the fact that the Pope has the final word on things. We know that the Church can teach Infallibly. Since the Pope has the last word, he would be able to speak Infallibly, as long as it didn’t contradict Tradition. I may ask the final authority in the Orthodox Church is a Ecumenical Council. What if the Ecumenical Council was heterodox? What would you do if it contradicted Tradition. Would you hold another Council at a later time. The fact is that no one can teach infallibly while contradicted other infallible doctrine.
On a side note many of the quotes are not merely honorary and give the Pope a ranking above the other Bishops. I’m not saying you have to believe in Papal Infallibility however most Orthodox will agree that the Pope was the leader, however I think the snag lines are somewhere else. Correct me if I’m wrong.
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holdencaulfield
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Both
Infallible
- A Popes Ex Cathedra statement that does not contradict Tradition
- A Ecumenical Council that does not contradict Tradition
- Tradition
- A Papal Statement that is heterodox
I can’t see how you can’t agree with this. So in your belief a Pope could say that St. John the Baptist was not Elijah? This contradicts the Bible itself. What if he said it Ex Cathedra. Would you still believe it. Of course not because it contradicts previous Infallible Tradition. You would thus assume that two things that are correct can not contradict each other. Since we already knew that the previous statement was Infallible we would assume that the Ex Cathedra statement was not infallible and thus null.
On a second note however the Pope could make an Ex Cathedra statement that St. John the Baptist was Elijah in a symbolic sense only as the Bible or Tradition (at least I don’t think so
) does not specify.
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ForeverAdam
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Yes, they do. However, this is of canonical significance, as it pertains to the things being done in good order in the Church. For these statements to have doctrinal significance, they would have to ensure that the Pope couldn’t err or could proclaim dogmas. The former is not ensured and is even contradicted by statements from your own Church. And the latter was unknown in the ancient Church as no papal dogmas came from this period, despite highly authoritative defenses of the Faith being provided by various Popes.
Yes, she can. However, the Church is not ordinarily reduced to one bishop.
I assume that by “speaking infallibly” you mean “proclaiming dogmas” as this is what papal infallibility consists in. No Pope or anybody appealing to a Pope in the early Church gives evidence that even a most authoritative response of a Pope would constitute a dogma. And to this day, the only dogmas we know from the first millennium are those from ecumenical councils, despite the many appeals and great orthodox responses given by the Popes of Old Rome during the same time period.
No argument.
I didn’t say all the quotes were honorary. And as I stated last evening, the Pope will be seen as the Primary Bishop of the Orthodox Church once he returns to Holy Orthodoxy. However, quotes praising the incorruptible faith of the Pope are honorary, as we both know that Popes can lose the purity of their faith.
God bless,
Adam
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holdencaulfield
Guest
Pope St. Leo I
“And so if anything is rightly done and rightly decreed by us, if anything is won from the mercy of God by our daily supplications, it is of his work and merits whose power lives and whose authority prevails in his See.” (Sermons 3:2-3)
Regardless, Why could a Bishop not teach something that is in accordance with the faith. How do we know that councils have the ability to formulate dogmas? Because of the authority given to the entire Church by Christ. We will agree that St. Peter was given a special authority over the others. If the Pope is merely making a dogma that agrees with previous Tradition, then why could we not believe that. On a side note the Pope is not the entire Church he is merely the authoritative head. However he can speak from the faith that was given to him by Christ.
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ForeverAdam
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And yet St. Leo never proclaimed one dogma in his life nor did he ever claim to, despite having a rather healthy view of his connection to St. Peter and having authored a great defense of the faith at the time of the Council of Chalcedon.
Any bishop can teach the faith (they better!) and even be a great defender of this faith. However, nobody in the ancient Church (we still don’t in the Orthodox Church) made the leap from teaching/defending the faith to declaring dogmas. Only ecumenical councils can do this.
God bless and Goodnight,
Adam
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holdencaulfield
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Lets start with the Assumption. It’s the same thing as the Dormition. I don’t know how to spell it. Regardless this has been Tradition for a long time. There was never any dogma that was made about it. The Pope didn’t make up the dogma he merely stated what it was. Are we to assume that this is not allowed either.
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wisdomseeker
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our main concern shoul be this: are we pleasing Our God in what we are doing? brothers and sisters, i think we should examine ourselves. if we think about it one thing is very clear that Our God wants one thing of us and that is that we be One in everything in matter of faith and morals. therefore we should not continue to grieve Our Lord. remember the time when Our Lord grieved over Jerusalem because of their disbelief i suppose we should not be doing the same. Our God already suffers enough for a world that is falling apart because most of us have lost our faith and pride is taking over mankind. we should be very concern about what we are doing is affecting others. it seems like we have pushed Our God to the side and we are taking over because we know better. do you really believe that Our Lord is pleased with us? i would say NO. look what we are doing to His Church we are trying to destroy it.
this reminds me of a cardinal in france, when Napolean said that he was going to destroy the catholic church. the cardinal answered: “how is he going to do that from the outside? when we couldnt do it ourselves from the inside.”
It is time for us to think more about Our God and what He wants from us. "Be One as My Father and I are One. this is what we need to be doing. how can we work together to make sure this will happen and happen very soon. our differences are so small, i can not say the same about protestants for they really do not believe much of what we believe specially in some very important to us as the Eucharist. but that is another story. orthodox and catholics must be one again so we can serve as example for others. Remember a house divided will be destroyed.
As i am saying this ,my soul is crying out to Our Lord Have mercy on us oh Holly and Mercyfull One of Israel.
this reminds me of a cardinal in france, when Napolean said that he was going to destroy the catholic church. the cardinal answered: “how is he going to do that from the outside? when we couldnt do it ourselves from the inside.”
It is time for us to think more about Our God and what He wants from us. "Be One as My Father and I are One. this is what we need to be doing. how can we work together to make sure this will happen and happen very soon. our differences are so small, i can not say the same about protestants for they really do not believe much of what we believe specially in some very important to us as the Eucharist. but that is another story. orthodox and catholics must be one again so we can serve as example for others. Remember a house divided will be destroyed.
As i am saying this ,my soul is crying out to Our Lord Have mercy on us oh Holly and Mercyfull One of Israel.
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holdencaulfield
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Good point wisdomseeker. However I am trying to see if the Catholic Church is correct. How will I know other than conversing with our Orthodox Brethren?
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catharina
Guest
holden, I’ve never known of one’s faith growing stronger by being put to the test of “reasoned correction” or indeed any sort of proof. As you know by now, I do fear for you in this “quest” and it seems far outside the bounds of any normative faith-building.
Prayer helps to build one’s faith.
Limitless questioning builds one’s doubt.
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Hesychios
Guest
I quite agree. I am touched by your appeal and I share in your prayers, although this might surprise you…I am sincere about it.
Our task is to find a way. We are not so different (as you say), this should be obvious to anyone.
Amen
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