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Mickey
Guest
What is ultramonane?
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zagjames
Guest
Mickey you said “Then Pius IX and the ultramontanes invent and define…” a few posts ago. Ultramontanes means those beyond the mountains. The germans and french and others refered to the vatican as such because they were on the other side of the mountain. You are ultramontane from Rome because you are on the other side of the alps as well (maybe not litterally but your church is).
You may be talking about a completly different term though.
You may be talking about a completly different term though.
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Alexios
Guest
Aren’t some of the Orthodox here confusing the office of Pope with the person of the Pope? A Pope can say anything he wants, and be a heretic, it seems, but in his official capacity as Pope of Rome he cannot declare fallible ex cathedra statements. I don’t see what’s confusing about this.
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zagjames
Guest
So true. Thats why B16 published his book *Jesus of Nazareth *under his baptismal name. He wanted to stress that is was his personal writing not official teaching of the church. People confuse that so often. It often happens in news conferences with Vatican prelates. A prelate will offer his opinion on say Harry Potter, and then the media reports the Vatican says Harry Potter is okay, when he just gave a personal opinion. There is a differnece between what the Pope communicates through the Office of Pope and what he personally communicates as a man, and a priest. He can only be infalliabe ex cathedra. The rest of the time he is as infalliable as you or me.
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Mickey
Guest
Zag,
You said ultramonane–without the “t”. I was confused.
But there is more than your definition:
Ultramontanism is a religious philosophy within the Roman Catholic community that places strong emphasis on the prerogatives and powers of the pope. In particular, ultramontanism may consist in asserting the superiority of Papal authority over the authority of local temporal or spiritual hierarchies (including the local bishop). It literally refers to support by those dwelling “beyond the mountains” (ultra montes), that is, beyond the Alps — specifically referring to the Pope in Rome.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultramontanism
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Mickey
Guest
Everything is confusing about it. The doctrine is an innovation. The undivided Church knew no such dogma. Ex-cathedra cannot even be explained sufficiently.
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wynd
Guest
What is confusing is that, according to some posters in this thread, he *can *proclaim fallible ex cathedra statements (if it so happens that the statement does not line up with tradition).
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zagjames
Guest
But at is core ultramontanes means beyond the mountians. My point is that this term is all a point of perspective. Medieval church writings would sometimes call non-italian church issues ultramontanes. All ultramontanes means in our current world is having to do with papal authority, the idea of which existed before Vatican I, long before.
Catholic Encyclopedia:
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Mickey
Guest
No. It is not geographic only. It is intimately connected to papal superiority.
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Mickey
Guest
The undivided Church new of primacy–but not supremacy/infallibility.
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catharina
Guest
The rock, the foundation, is Peter.
That is the Church that Jesus promises will not fall to the gates of hell.
Even if all other bishops fall into ‘pebbles and dust,’ the rock is still Peter.
The Church is built on Peter. It’s Peter’s way or the highway.
Really simple.
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Tomster
Guest
Every word of the pronouncement was weighed and debated by the Fathers of Vatican I. It should be studied with equal care by those who would grasp the Church’s teaching on Papal infallibility. Much of the hostility to which it has given rise has its source in ignorance or misunderstanding of the scope and limitations clearly indicated in the definition itself.Infallibility/ supremacy was not known in the first millenium. Then Pius IX and the ultramontanes invent and define this odd doctrine in 1870 and the Latin Church proceeds to retroactively apply it to all of Church history. I would say that the doctrine of infallibility /supremacy is against “Tradition” and hence Pius IX was a fallible Pope who was defining a new and strange doctrine. Oh the irony!
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Alexios
Guest
This really all boils down to the development of doctrine. No, Mickey, Papal Infallibility was not clearly explicated in the first millennium, just as the nature of the procession of the Holy Spirit was not clearly explicated in 175 AD. But the core of the belief has always been there, since Apostolic times, both in the case of Papal infallibility and the procession of the Holy Spirit.
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Servus_Pio_XII
Guest
Sure it was:
"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you."
-John 14: 26
Even the Vatican’s quit arguing this one:
"This origin of the Holy Spirit from the Father alone as Principle of the whole Trinity is called ἐκπόρευσις by Greek tradition, following the Cappadocian Fathers. St Gregory of Nazianzus, the Theologian, in fact, characterizes the Spirit’s relationship of origin from the Father by the proper term ἐκπόρευσις, distinguishing it from that of procession (τὸ προϊέναι) which the Spirit has in common with the Son. “The Spirit is truly the Spirit proceeding (προιόν) from the Father, not by filiation, for it is not by generation, but by ἐκπόρευσις (Discourse 39, 12, Sources chrétiennes 358, p. 175).”
geocities.com/trvalentine/orthodox/vatican_clarification.html
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Mickey
Guest
Ah, the Roman Catholic mantra!
Here’s some news for you. The Rock is St Peter’s confession of faith.
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Mickey
Guest
Study non-biases sources on Vatican I. You will see that there was much dissention. The strange dogma was championed by the Ultramontanists and forced through by Pius IX. It is an interesting, yet sad, part of Latin Catholic history.
A good starting place for your research might include the Council of Constance and the Council of Basel.
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Mickey
Guest
I believe that St Peter would be quite grieved to hear such a statement.
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catharina
Guest
Ah, the Roman Catholic mantra!
Here’s some news for you. The Rock is St Peter’s confession of faith.
Peter, by the choice of Our Lord, is the rock.
You can’t change the words or their meaning.
(Or you can, but then the error is yours.)
Mantra? As in Hinduism?
Nope. No mantras here.
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Mickey
Guest
St Augustine****
In a passage in this book, I said about the Apostle Peter: ‘On him as on a rock the Church was built’…But I know that very frequently at a later time, I so explained what the Lord said: ‘Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church,’ that it be understood as built upon Him whom Peter confessed saying: ‘Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,’ and so Peter, called after this rock, represented the person of the Church which is built upon this rock, and has received ‘the keys of the kingdom of heaven.’ For, ‘Thou art Peter’ and not ‘Thou art the rock’ was said to him. But ‘the rock was Christ,’ in confessing whom, as also the whole Church confesses, Simon was called Peter. But let the reader decide which of these two opinions is the more probable (The Fathers of the Church (Washington D.C., Catholic University, 1968), Saint Augustine, The Retractations Chapter 20.1).
Neither can you.
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catharina
Guest
Neither can Augustine. (Really, he can’t.)
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