Orthodoxy and the Papacy.

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Yes. That is what you have been taught.
No. What is popmpous is when someone says,
"Why did I even bother responding to you?"
**
Either attempt to respond in charity or not at all.
My loss? I don’t think so. :tiphat:

Peace and blessings to you.
You are disseminating YOUR opinion, dear. You find my words to be pompous and abrasive. That’s YOUR OPINION. I spoke (wrote) in a spirit of truth, as in: why did I bother responding to you? (… since you seem to have little willingness for give-and-take in this discussion.) Calling my words “pompous and abrasive” defies any notion of charity, IMO. You’re not a very skilled “teacher” if making cutting remarks is a part of your style.
 
You are disseminating YOUR opinion, dear.
No dear. I have done nothing but set forth the position of the Holy Orthodox Church. It is opposed to many of the doctrines you were taught in Roman Catholicism and it makes you uncomfortable–I understand. But I have not attacked you personally and there is no need for you to attack me.
since you seem to have little willingness for give-and-take…
You’re not a very skilled “teacher”.
You continue to justify your abrasiveness with insults.🤷
 
No dear. I have done nothing but set forth the position of the Holy Orthodox Church. It is opposed to many of the doctrines you were taught in Roman Catholicism and it makes you uncomfortable–I understand. But I have not attacked you personally and there is no need for you to attack me.

You continue to justify your abrasiveness with insults.🤷
Pompous, abrasive, insulting? That’s charitable? No.

You have little tolerance for give-and-take. You should admit to that without hesitation. It’s not insulting - simply quite observable. The only thing that has made me uncomfortable with your “orthodoxy” is that you’re prone to flinging personal insults. That makes you an extremely questionable advocate for your beliefs - and thanks be to God, that’s not my problem.

You are what you are and it seems you’ll remain that way. If so, then so be it.

Case closed.
 
One more time:

Indeed,

Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth and the Life.

Affirming that, I also affirm that:
if I call to Peter, Peter answers;
if I call to Paul, Paul answers;
If I call to both, both answer.

I do not not call to Peter while expecting Paul to answer.

Prayer. It’s so wonderful.
 
…you might embrace the truth re Peter before you die.
All the arguments have already been placed so now we are just being redundant, your opinion against mine. Understandably, you were taught to think this way, but it is very triumphalistic.

For Orthodox, Peter and the other Apostles are our forebears in the Faith. We love Peter and honor his memory.

But he was no Pope in the modern sense and you cannot telescope history trying to project the modern Papacy back into the first century, it is not there, and the “seeds” of it are not there.

Being attached to another Apostolic church teaching Truth is no sin, having another Patriarch beside the one at Rome is a perfectly reasonable. It always was so, that was the primitive church.
I do hope that none of us plans to face the Lord with arguments as to why HE was wrong.
Are you eagerly awaiting the chance to say “I told you so”? What is your point exactly?

What do you imply here, is this a veiled threat? I hope I am wrong but it seems to me like you are smirking. Do you claim know what Christ had decided, do you feel you can speak for Him?

You cannot stand in anyone’s place at the time of judgment, and neither I nor any other can stand in yours.

Good luck.

http://members.cox.net/aa1973/wc_publican.jpg
 
Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth and the Life
Amen.
if I call to Peter, Peter answers;
if I call to Paul, Paul answers;
If I call to both, both answer.
We can ask any of the thousands and thousands of saints to pray for us–and they will. That is the beauty of having such a rich Tradtion of holy martyrs, confessors, and saints. 👍
 
All the arguments have already been placed so now we are just being redundant, your opinion against mine. Understandably, you were taught to think this way, but it is very triumphalistic.

For Orthodox, Peter and the other Apostles are our forebears in the Faith. We love Peter and honor his memory.

But he was no Pope in the modern sense and you cannot telescope history trying to project the modern Papacy back into the first century, it is not there, and the “seeds” of it are not there.

Being attached to another Apostolic church teaching Truth is no sin, having another Patriarch beside the one at Rome is a perfectly reasonable. It always was so, that was the primitive church.
Are you eagerly awaiting the chance to say “I told you so”? What is your point exactly?

What do you imply here, is this a veiled threat? I hope I am wrong but it seems to me like you are smirking. Do you claim know what Christ had decided, do you feel you can speak for Him?

You cannot stand in anyone’s place at the time of judgment, and neither I nor any other can stand in yours.

Good luck.

http://members.cox.net/aa1973/wc_publican.jpg
A veilied THREAT? Smirking? Judging another?

Too sad for words.

I’m at least as entitled to state my belief in the primacy of Peter as you are to dispute it.

I acknowledge that Apostolic tradition was composed of individuals. Accusing me of anything (SMIRKING?) is ludicrous. As for your “good luck,” I don’t believe in luck. Do you? Remember you are representing Orthodoxy here, not any individual tendency to sarcasm.

As I said (twice), and now one more time:

Indeed,

Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth and the Life.
Affirming that, I also affirm that:
if I call to Peter, Peter answers;
if I call to Paul, Paul answers;
If I call to both, both answer.

I do not not call to Peter while expecting Paul to answer.

Prayer. It’s so wonderful.
 
This really all boils down to the development of doctrine. No, Mickey, Papal Infallibility was not clearly explicated in the first millennium, just as the nature of the procession of the Holy Spirit was not clearly explicated in 175 AD. But the core of the belief has always been there, since Apostolic times, both in the case of Papal infallibility and the procession of the Holy Spirit.
I ardently agree with the above quote. This is what it all boils down to. If I can be personal for a moment, I reckon that if my beliefs on the development of doctrine were not in line with Catholic teachings, then Orthodoxy might be an appealing option:) Fortunately, I have no such scruples.

I’ve read over the Orthodox position regarding their rejection and, for me, their reasoning seems rather inadequate.

In 1895 the “Reply of the Synod of Constantinople to Pope Leo XIII” reads in its 24th Chapter:

“It is manifest that the universal Church of God, which holds fast in its bosom unique, unadulterated and entire this salutary faith as a divine deposit, just as of old it was delivered and unfolded by the God-bearing Fathers moved by the Spirit, and formulated by them during the first nine centuries, is one and the same forever, and not manifold and varying with the process of time: because the gospel truths are never susceptible to alteration or progress in the course of time, like the various philosophical systems; ‘for Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, and today, and forever.’ Wherefore also the holy Vincent [of Lerins] who was brought up on the milk of piety received from the Fathers in the monastery of Lerins in Gaul, and flourished about the middle of the fifth century, with great wisdom and orthodoxy characterizes the true catholicity of the Faith and of the Church saying ‘In the Catholic Church we must especially take heed to hold that which has been believed everywhere, at all times, and by all. For this is truly and properly catholic, as the very force and meaning of the word signifies, which moreover comprehends almost everything universally. And this we shall do, if we walk following universality, antiquity, and content.’ But as has been said before, the western Church, from the tenth century onwards, has privily brought into herself through the papacy various and strange and heretical doctrines and innovations, and so she has been torn away and removed far from the true and orthodox Church of Christ. How necessary it is, then, for you to come back and return to the ancient and universal doctrines of the Church…”

The Eastners quote from St. Vincent of Lerins, but in the very same work St. Vincent notes:

"But some one will say, perhaps, Shall there, then, be no progress in Christ’s Church? Certainly; all possible progress. For what being is there, so envious of men, so full of hatred to God, who would seek to forbid it? Yet on condition that it be real progress, not alteration of the faith. For progress requires that the subject be enlarged in itself, alteration, that it be transformed into something else. The intelligence, then, the knowledge, the wisdom, as well of individuals as of all, as well of one man as of the whole Church, ought, in the course of ages and centuries, to increase and make much and vigorous progress; but yet only in its own kind; that is to say, in the same doctrine, in the same sense, and in the same meaning.

The growth of religion in the soul must be analogous to the growth of the body, which, though in process of years it is developed and attains its full size, yet remains still the same. There is a wide difference between the flower of youth and the maturity of age; yet they who were once young are still the same now that they have become old, insomuch that though the stature and outward form of the individual are changed, yet his nature is one and the same, his person is one and the same. An infant’s limbs are small, a young man’s large, yet the infant and the young man are the same…"

Im sure some of our Orthodox brethren can more fully explain to us their beliefs regarding Dev. of Doc.

God bless,

JJR
 
I ardently agree with the above quote. This is what it all boils down to. If I can be personal for a moment, I reckon that if my beliefs on the development of doctrine were not in line with Catholic teachings, then Orthodoxy might be an appealing option:) Fortunately, I have no such scruples.
What do you mean by “development of doctrine”? Do you mean that the liturgical/disciplinary expression of doctrine, the understanding of/appreciation for why we have our belief and the spread of true doctrine in the world and in our souls, may develop? If so, we agree with you, so long as this development is organically connected with our past. Or do you believe that Christ and the Apostles established a Deposit of Faith that is only taught, as the Church progressively understands it? If so, we don’t agree. I look forward to your response. 🙂

God bless,

Adam
 
Infallibility/ supremacy was not known in the first millenium. Then Pius IX and the ultramontanes invent and define this odd doctrine in 1870 and the Latin Church proceeds to retroactively apply it to all of Church history. I would say that the doctrine of infallibility /supremacy is against “Tradition” and hence Pius IX was a fallible Pope who was defining a new and strange doctrine. Oh the irony! 😃
This is a typical response from the anti-Papal people. It is not well founded, people should understand that doctrines are not always developed right away.
 
This is a typical response from the anti-Papal people. It is not well founded, people should understand that doctrines are not always developed right away.
Do you believe that true teachings may evolve from unknown or universally rejected theories?
 
Aren’t some of the Orthodox here confusing the office of Pope with the person of the Pope? A Pope can say anything he wants, and be a heretic, it seems, but in his official capacity as Pope of Rome he cannot declare fallible ex cathedra statements. I don’t see what’s confusing about this.
Good point. 👍
 
So true. Thats why B16 published his book *Jesus of Nazareth *under his baptismal name. He wanted to stress that is was his personal writing not official teaching of the church. People confuse that so often. It often happens in news conferences with Vatican prelates. A prelate will offer his opinion on say Harry Potter, and then the media reports the Vatican says Harry Potter is okay, when he just gave a personal opinion. There is a differnece between what the Pope communicates through the Office of Pope and what he personally communicates as a man, and a priest. He can only be infalliabe ex cathedra. The rest of the time he is as infalliable as you or me.
Good point. And nothing that he says that is heretical is Ex Cathedra.
 
Everything is confusing about it. The doctrine is an innovation. The undivided Church knew no such dogma. Ex-cathedra cannot even be explained sufficiently. 🤷
The only problem is that we already pointed out one example with Pope St. Leo I. Another issue is that Ex Cathedra counts for morals too.

On a side note I believe that we can take all of St. Peter’s letters to be Ex Cathedra, as nothing heretical was said and they are on faith and morals and the entire Church accepts them.
 
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