P
Per_Crucem
Guest
Is it part of the Gospel message that the believer repent, turn away from his sins, obey Christ etc?
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K
Koineman
Guest
Repentance is to be preached as part of the Great Commission, as stated in Luke. But that has nothing to do with merit.
P
Per_Crucem
Guest
No, it doesn’t. But if repentance, obedience to Christ, etc. is part of the Gospel, are those not works done in God?
K
Koineman
Guest
That’s not actually the issue for me. The issue for me is that they are claimed to have merit.
P
Per_Crucem
Guest
So you are okay with saying that they are required for eternal life and lead to it, but not if the term merit is used?
K
Koineman
Guest
I’m okay with saying that works are necessary, but what they are necessary for and what they accomplish are another matter.
Trent says they are necessary to merit eternal life. That is the problem.
P
Per_Crucem
Guest
What do you think they are necessary for?
K
Koineman
Guest
They are the necessary accompaniment of faith. They are also necessary because they are commanded by God.
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pablope
Guest
Did you mean…the Gospel according to you and your interpretation? or rather a Gospel to your liking…Incorrect. My point was that I did not find the Gospel in Catholicism.
P
Per_Crucem
Guest
Which specific canon from Trent do you disagree with, that states works merit eternal life?
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pablope
Guest
If works are commanded by God…then these works do have some merit…because God commanded them?
Then can you explain how works do not have some kind of merit?
K
Koineman
Guest
This, from the Sixth Session:
"CHAPTER XVI.
On the fruit of Justification, that is, on the merit of good works, and on the nature of that merit.
Before men, therefore, who have been justified in this manner,-whether they have preserved uninterruptedly the grace received, or whether they have recovered it when lost,-are to be set the words of the Apostle: Abound in every good work, knowing that your labour is not in vain in the Lord; for God is not unjust, that he should forget your work, and the love which you have shown in his name; and, do not lose your confidence, which hath a great reward. And, for this cause, life eternal is to be proposed to those working well unto [Page 43] the end, and hoping in God, both as a grace mercifully promised to the sons of God through Jesus Christ, and as a reward which is according to the promise of God Himself, to be faithfully rendered to their good works and merits. For this is that crown of justice which the Apostle declared was, after his fight and course, laid up for him, to be rendered to him by the just judge, and not only to him, but also to all that love his coming. For, whereas Jesus Christ Himself continually infuses his virtue into the said justified,-as the head into the members, and the vine into the branches,-and this virtue always precedes and accompanies and follows their good works, which without it could not in any wise be pleasing and meritorious before God,-we must believe that nothing further is wanting to the justified, to prevent their being accounted to have, by those very works which have been done in God, fully satisfied the divine law according to the state of this life, and to have truly merited eternal life, to be obtained also in its (due) time, if so be, however, that they depart in grace: seeing that Christ, our Saviour, saith: If any one shall drink of the water that I will give him, he shall not thirst for ever; but it shall become in him a fountain of water springing up unto life everlasting. Thus, neither is our own justice established as our own as from ourselves; nor is the justice of God ignored or repudiated: for that justice which is called ours, because that we are justified from its being inherent in us, that same is (the justice) of God, because that it is infused into us of God, through the merit of Christ. Neither is this to be omitted,-that although, in the sacred writings, so much is attributed to good works, that Christ promises, that even he that shall give a drink of cold water to one of his least ones, shall not lose his reward; and the Apostle testifies that, That which is at present momentary and light of our tribulation, worketh for us above measure exceedingly an eternal weight of glory; nevertheless God forbid that a Christian should either trust or glory in himself, and not in the Lord, whose bounty towards all [Page 44] men is so great, that He will have the things which are His own gifts be their merits. And forasmuch as in many things we all offend, each one ought to have before his eyes, as well the severity and judgment, as the mercy and goodness (of God); neither ought any one to judge himself, even though he be not conscious to himself of anything; because the whole life of man is to be examined and judged, not by the judgment of man, but of God, who will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts, and then shall every man have praise from God, who, as it is written, will render to every man according to his works. After this Catholic doctrine on Justification, which whoso receiveth not faithfully and firmly cannot be justified, it hath seemed good to the holy Synod to subjoin these canons, that all may know not only what they ought to hold and follow, but also what to avoid and shun."
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Per_Crucem
Guest
But since Trent teaches that the grace of Christ is necessary for a work to be meritorious in the sight of God, how does this turn the gospel into the believer saving himself, since Christ as savior is necessary for it? Was it not Augustine who said that when God crowns our merit in us, He is doing nothing but crowning His own works? The problem that you’re going to run into is that there are numerous places in the New Testament that state that eternal life is a reward for faithful obedience to Christ.
K
Koineman
Guest
Because it confuses law and gospel. The burden is placed on the Christian to do works in order to merit eternal life. Even if it is said that those works are from the grace of God, the burden is still there to produce those works and thus to merit eternal life.
According to the Tridentine text, instead of Christ meriting eternal life for us, it is rather Christ making it possible for us to merit eternal life.
P
Per_Crucem
Guest
Can you expand on that?
K
Koineman
Guest
I did in the sentence that came right after that.
P
Per_Crucem
Guest
No, I mean what do you mean by confusing law and gospel? What is confusing law and gospel?
K
Koineman
Guest
to fail to distinguish between them properly. The law gives commands and expects perfection, thus promising only condemnation. The gospel gives only promise, and thus offers no condemnation.
P
Per_Crucem
Guest
In Scripture commands and promises are typically found together. With God’s promises come commands to repent of sin and believe the promise. The commands, typically, are not merely announcements of judgment, but God’s gracious opportunities to repent of sin and believe in him. As the Psalmist says, “be gracious to me through your law."
K
Koineman
Guest
Yes, but the promises attached to the law are contingent upon perfect obedience, hence the law really promises only wrath and punishment. The promises are there, yes, but they are only carried out as long as we perfectly obey.
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