Orthodoxy: Ecumenicity, Receptionism and the Councils

[Kosta]

Perhaps you missed this?

Ach, you got me, with your witty retorts and your red text. I might as well convert to Eastern Christianity and get it over with; do you know of any good godfathers for me now? Check mate, Orthodox!

Your first mistake was thinking that I’m a learned man. I’m not, and I don’t try to be. Many times, the “gotcha!” statements that go back and forth go right over my head. I don’t study theology, as much as I’d like to. It’s not my field of study, so I have to rely on the guidance of my priests, and I’m fine with that. At least this man was speaking honestly from his heart and trying to engage the situation calmly and kindly. I mean this from my heart and not out of anger, but your attitude does not nor will it ever endear me to your cause, sir. What doesn’t bother me are your beliefs: I disagree with them, and that’s that. I just think you’re going about your global quest to place all of Christendom under one papal-banner all wrong.

Have you ever been to an Eastern Catholic or Orthodox cross? If not, have you ever met an Eastern Catholic or Orthodox Christian? Again, I want to stress that I’m engaging you because I’m angry, I just don’t understand where all this anger and negativity are coming from.

 

[Efnouti_Nai_Nan]

I don’t understand the point of Randy’s post. What I had written was that councils were confirmed by later councils. That does not mean that it was written into them that that’s how they should be received. That’s what actually happened, though, like when the Creed of Nicaea was used at the Council of Ephesus. There were other variations of the Creed (like the one that is used by the Armenians, which is an earlier version than what the other churches use, so it is written a little differently), but they were not confirmed by a council as that one is. The ecumenical councils are the same, I think: Many are still accepted without being ecumenical (by various churches; like we Copts have the synod in Alexandria of Pope Timothy that isn’t recognized by the Eastern Orthodox or the Catholics), but only those that are agreed to be ecumenical are counted that way.

What is the problem with this? Is it not true that the Latin church has its own councils that are only for it and not for others? So some are meant for everyone, and some are meant for only some (to deal with local situations). And the ones that are meant for everyone should be ratified by everyone. I don’t understand why this is a problem.

 

[prodromos]

Consider also that it was not until quite late in history that the Catholic Church suddenly decided to declare that a whole bunch of earlier councils were now, in fact, ‘ecumenical’ councils, including one that had previously been considered a false council.

 

[awsiukiewicz]

Have either of you, Randy or Seraphim…read the late Fr. Gregory Hesse’s ‘breakdown’ of the Vatican II docs…PhD’s in canon law and theoolgy…avail yrselves of his comments regarding the validity of councils, what constitutes a council etc…

 

[Randy_Carson]

Ach, you got me, with your witty retorts and your red text. I might as well convert to Eastern Christianity and get it over with; do you know of any good godfathers for me now? Check mate, Orthodox!

This may be a good idea.

Your first mistake was thinking that I’m a learned man. I’m not, and I don’t try to be. Many times, the “gotcha!” statements that go back and forth go right over my head. I don’t study theology, as much as I’d like to. It’s not my field of study, so I have to rely on the guidance of my priests, and I’m fine with that. At least this man was speaking honestly from his heart and trying to engage the situation calmly and kindly. I mean this from my heart and not out of anger, but your attitude does not nor will it ever endear me to your cause, sir. What doesn’t bother me are your beliefs: I disagree with them, and that’s that. I just think you’re going about your global quest to place all of Christendom under one papal-banner all wrong.

I understand that you disagree with Catholicism, but the real issue is: WHY believe in Orthodoxy if there are so many obvious problems with it? Remaining Orthodox simply because your parents were or because you’re Greek or Russian is a really LOUSY reason. And I would say the same to Irish or Italian Catholics. I expect people to know not only WHAT they believe but WHY they believe it, also. Yaya’s baklava is not a good reason to be Orthodox.

Now, you’ll see half a dozen EO take exception to that question, but what you’ll notice if you read through the thread is that despite repeated requests, NOT ONE PERSON has attempted to explain to me (and the many Catholics following this thread silently) WHY the problems of receptivity and private judgment are not a fundamental flaw of Orthodoxy.

Kosta, I appreciate that you feel overwhelmed by some of the discussion, but the bottom line is this: Jesus did not promise to build a church that looks anything like the 13(?) autocephalous churches of Orthodoxy. Jesus promised to build ONE Church upon Peter, the Rock (cf. Mt. 16:18-19), and in giving Peter the keys (which no other apostle received) of the kingdom, Jesus re-established the ancient office of the Royal Steward who was second only to the King. (Remember Joseph in Egypt?)

Separated from the authority of Peter (and his successors, the Bishops of Rome), Orthodoxy has no choice but to anchor itself to the past in order to avoid being blown about. But that anchor prevents movement forward, too, and this is why Orthodox theology has “ossified” or stopped growing.

Have you ever been to an Eastern Catholic or Orthodox cross? If not, have you ever met an Eastern Catholic or Orthodox Christian? Again, I want to stress that I’m engaging you because I’m angry, I just don’t understand where all this anger and negativity are coming from.

I MAY have met some Orthodox in my life, but if so, I do not know this for sure. I don’t know any today, for sure. However, I have no anger against the Orthodox (well, one EO here tends to annoy me consistently); what I have is actually my passion for eradicating the falsehood of those who claim to be the continuation of the one, true Church built by Jesus without justification for that claim.

But don’t think I’m picking on you. I’m just as passionate about overcoming the errors of Protestantism and Judaism and Mormonism and…

 

[Cavaradossi]

However, I have no anger against the Orthodox (well, one EO here tends to annoy me consistently);

No need to be annoyed when others point out that your arguments stand on a specious double standard. You still have not given account of what is sufficient to make a council ecumenical, without which, it is impossible for you to know with any reasonable certitude whether a council is ecumenical. Lamentably, It seems like you don’t even care to try but would prefer to continue peddling this idea (mistaken in my opinion) that having a procedural method for having certain knowledge of things a posteriori is an integral part of the Christian faith (I never realized that Christians were supposed to be logical positivists). But don’t take it personally that we disagree. Perhaps the Gospel actually does include logical positivism (though I sincerely doubt it), and I have simply missed it.

 

[Randy_Carson]

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/...RgKVYLt5EURbKevmkACJrlL4ahvriO0B29Q8G1FrXXknQ

You still have not given account of what is sufficient to make a council ecumenical, without which, it is impossible for you to know with any reasonable certitude whether a council is ecumenical. Lamentably, It seems like you don’t even care to try but would prefer to continue peddling this idea (mistaken in my opinion) that having a procedural method for having certain knowledge of things a posteriori is an integral part of the Christian faith (I never realized that Christians were supposed to be logical positivists).

I gave my answer on November 28 in Post #222. You may disagree with what I posted, but that’s directly from an Ecumenical Council of the Catholic Church.

Now, I HAVE answered. Will you?

Do you have anything even remotely that articulate to refute what other Orthodox are saying about the problems of receptivity? If so, when will you be giving me an answer to Post #233? It’s been almost two weeks…

And btw, please note from my post that receptivity is only half the problem; Private Judgment (in place of the Magisterium of the Church) is its evil twin.

But don’t take it personally that we disagree.

Mere “disagreement” is not the problem.

 

[Cavaradossi]

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/...RgKVYLt5EURbKevmkACJrlL4ahvriO0B29Q8G1FrXXknQ

How childish. I would like to think that such antics are beneath your dignity, but if you insist, I cannot stop you.

It has nothing to do with whether or not I personally disagree with the teaching you posted in #222. As I responded in the very next post, what was posted in #222 does not give what is sufficient but only what is necessary, and knowing only what is necessary falls short of the sort of positivism you espouse, because it cannot establish what is an ecumenical council but only what is not an ecumenical council.

*Now, I HAVE answered. Will you?

The consensus of the Patriarchates could be a necessary condition. This was in fact the criterion given for judgment on any matter of doctrine at the anti-Photianist synod of 869-70, as well as several saints (St. Theodore the Studite seemed to believe this, for example).

Do you have anything even remotely that articulate to refute what other Orthodox are saying about the problems of receptivity? If so, when will you be giving me an answer to Post #233? It’s been almost two weeks…

Yes, that they should acquire the mind of the Church and quit trying to force the alien spirit of logical positivism upon her.

And btw, please note from my post that receptivity is only half the problem; Private Judgment (in place of the Magisterium of the Church) is its evil twin.

It’s basically an unsound argument you make. You cannot even understand what the Church teaches without first interpreting those teachings, and interpretation is a matter of judgment. So long as we humans communicate through words, we can never escape “private judgment”.

 

[Kosta]

This may be a good idea.

I understand that you disagree with Catholicism, but the real issue is: WHY believe in Orthodoxy if there are so many obvious problems with it? Remaining Orthodox simply because your parents were or because you’re Greek or Russian is a really LOUSY reason. And I would say the same to Irish or Italian Catholics. I expect people to know not only WHAT they believe but WHY they believe it, also. Yaya’s baklava is not a good reason to be Orthodox.

Now, you’ll see half a dozen EO take exception to that question, but what you’ll notice if you read through the thread is that despite repeated requests, NOT ONE PERSON has attempted to explain to me (and the many Catholics following this thread silently) WHY the problems of receptivity and private judgment are not a fundamental flaw of Orthodoxy.

Kosta, I appreciate that you feel overwhelmed by some of the discussion, but the bottom line is this: Jesus did not promise to build a church that looks anything like the 13(?) autocephalous churches of Orthodoxy. Jesus promised to build ONE Church upon Peter, the Rock (cf. Mt. 16:18-19), and in giving Peter the keys (which no other apostle received) of the kingdom, Jesus re-established the ancient office of the Royal Steward who was second only to the King. (Remember Joseph in Egypt?)

Separated from the authority of Peter (and his successors, the Bishops of Rome), Orthodoxy has no choice but to anchor itself to the past in order to avoid being blown about. But that anchor prevents movement forward, too, and this is why Orthodox theology has “ossified” or stopped growing.

I MAY have met some Orthodox in my life, but if so, I do not know this for sure. I don’t know any today, for sure. However, I have no anger against the Orthodox (well, one EO here tends to annoy me consistently); what I have is actually my passion for eradicating the falsehood of those who claim to be the continuation of the one, true Church built by Jesus without justification for that claim.

But don’t think I’m picking on you. I’m just as passionate about overcoming the errors of Protestantism and Judaism and Mormonism and…

You probably don’t remember, but we’ve had this conversation before. I used to be Catholic. Your people did a rather poor job of raising me in the faith & catechising me. In my majority Catholic community, many people were uninformed, unhelpful, & hostile. The Orthodox were not. If you wanted to have kept me, then you should raise awareness in your community on helping others. It seems like your faith community is hemorrhaging members just like my Church is. I did not feel God’s presence in your church, so God called me elsewhere. I’m just glad he called me young: without him & the Bride of Christ, the Orthodox Church, my time at college would be a lot more difficult.

My Grandmother died nearly a decade before I converted, so that wasn’t it, thank you very much. She died the tenth of April, 2001, I was chrismated & communed the 17th of June, 2010. Yeah by the way, where I’m from, to be Catholic meant to be Irish. Talk about a sickening amount of ethnonationalism, my God. I think your Church is stale, mismanaged, heterodox, & I’m unsure about its sacraments. How much does the host matter to you when a 16 year old gives it to you & mumbles “the Body of Christ amen”? Not much it seems like to me.

But, this is for God to decide. God forgives, because he is merciful & loves all of us. I have evaluated the world as I see it & made my choice. I firmly believe that the Orthodox Church is the One, Holy, Catholic, & Apostolic Church. One the off-chance that I’m wrong when I die, then I hope that He has mercy on me, His servant, the chief amongst sinners.Of course the Church has problems: it’s an institution administrated by people. That’s the problem with you online Catholics who think that you’ve busted our Church open wide; you forget that your own Church has a million problems. Whatever happened to “Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye,” I’d like to know? I try as much as I can to help my Church to the best of my abilities. I do not study theology, I study international relations (current events, contemporary politics, history, cultures, & values). This is the way I will serve my God & His Church. I’d like to suggest that you take a step back from the Internet: sometimes its effects can be very corrosive for our health.
P.S. What’s so wrong about having a zest for life? That’s probably what helped convince me that the Orthodox Church is the one true Church—God is celebrated in my Church, no Catholic around me ever celebrated the gift of life growing up. Shame, that.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Yes, that they should acquire the mind of the Church and quit trying to force the alien spirit of logical positivism upon her.

Receptivity…good…and now…

You cannot even understand what the Church teaches without first interpreting those teachings, and interpretation is a matter of judgment. So long as we humans communicate through words, we can never escape “private judgment”.

Private judgment. Perfect. Two for two. Exactly what I have been saying all along. :clapping:

Receptivity and Private Judgment are the one-two combination that has Orthodoxy up against the ropes will put it lights out on the canvas.

See, Cav, we’re no longer arguing about Photius or Honorius or Canon 28…we’re now talking about an issue that is much, much deeper, and there is NO answer to be found within Orthodoxy. There is no Father or Council to which you may appeal. The problem is that YOU, ultimately, do not need to appeal to them. YOU are the final arbiter, and YOU are their judge because YOU get to vote as to whether or not YOU will receive them.

The ONLY solution is to acknowledge the God-given authority of the successor of Peter to whom Jesus gave the keys of the office of Royal Steward. And once you finally see that, then the gift of the papacy will be a joy to you.

 

[Novocastrian]

The ONLY solution is to acknowledge the God-given authority of the successor of Peter to whom Jesus gave the keys of the office of Royal Steward.

Now how does one do that?

 

[wynd]

See, Cav, we’re no longer arguing about Photius or Honorius or Canon 28…we’re now talking about an issue that is much, much deeper, and there is NO answer to be found within Orthodoxy. There is no Father or Council to which you may appeal. The problem is that YOU, ultimately, do not need to appeal to them. YOU are the final arbiter, and YOU are their judge because YOU get to vote as to whether or not YOU will receive them.

I’m sorry, Randy, but this isn’t how Orthodoxy works. It just isn’t. I had to come to the other side to see for myself.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Your first mistake was thinking that I’m a learned man. I’m not, and I don’t try to be.

I do not study theology

Kosta,

I am not trying to be rude when I recall what you have acknowledged about yourself and ask: You were poorly catechized as a Catholic and now you are ignorant as an Orthodox?

Brother, I applaud and encourage you to love God and your neighbor with all your heart, but seriously, if you are admittedly unlearned, isn’t it possible that you made a major mistake due to your ignorance when you converted?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Now how does one do that?

Well, in your case: usordinariate.org/

 

[Kosta]

Kosta,

I am not trying to be rude when I recall what you have acknowledged about yourself and ask: You were poorly catechized as a Catholic and now you are ignorant as an Orthodox?

Brother, I applaud and encourage you to love God and your neighbor with all your heart, but seriously, if you are admittedly unlearned, isn’t it possible that you made a major mistake due to your ignorance when you converted?

I wouldn’t say I’m ignorant, I’d say I don’t get to spend time each day reading theological tracts or the writings of the Church Fathers. That doesn’t mean I haven’t studied these matters in the past, or that I don’t learn without the aid of books. I learn every time I attend Divine Liturgy: what else did I learn going to Mass as a child every Wednesday other than everyone else was as bored as I was?

Time stops at a Divine Liturgy: there is no past, no present, no future. There is only the presence of God and our worship of Him. This is all the human soul needs.

 

[Randy_Carson]

what else did I learn going to Mass as a child every Wednesday other than everyone else was as bored as I was?

You weren’t alone, Kosta. Orthodox kids felt the same way.

Greek Orthodox Participants’ View of their Faith Tradition
goarch.org/archdiocese/departments/marriage/interfaith/interfaithresearchproject/greek-orthodox-participants2019-view-of-their-faith-tradition

Orthodox participants’ perceptions of the Greek Orthodox Church they attended were both respectful and critical. Participants indicated that the bonds they made as children with their respective faith communities as children were essentially familial, social, and ethnic in character. They also repeatedly talked about how little they knew about their church’s liturgical and doctrinal traditions. This lack of knowledge was often described as a handicap that negatively impacted their efforts to help (a) their children develop an Orthodox identity, and (b) their non-Orthodox spouse develop a deeper appreciation of Orthodoxy.

The ethno religious character of the Greek Orthodox experience was also discussed. Both positive and negative comments were offered about this dimension of community life.

The type of attitude that both the priest and congregation have toward intermarried couples and their families was also discussed. Participants generally concurred that a welcoming, tolerant attitude on the part of the priest and congregation were closely related to their level of commitment and participation. Despite their many critical observations, most participants generally stated that the “Greek Orthodox experience” remained important to them because it serves to assist them in their efforts to communicate with God and their neighbors.

1. Childhood Impressions

Greek Orthodox participants born in this country suggested their childhood impressions of the religious dimension of Greek Orthodox Church were moderately to highly negative in character. They typically described memories of “long boring” services that were celebrated "in Greek rather than their own English language.” They also stated that while many of their parents extolled the virtues of being Greek Orthodox, they failed to explain the faith in understandable terms. Their parents’ efforts to force and manipulate them into attending were also mentioned. Since many stopped attending church when they reached adolescence or went to college, many pointed out that their parents’ strategies were generally ineffective. Practicing their faith meant very little to them because they lacked a rudimentary understanding of their Orthodox faith background.

Many recalled how Sunday School lacked any depth and failed to be of much assistance in helping them understand Orthodoxy. Some stated that they obtained an understanding of Christianity when they attended non-Orthodox Bible studies and youth group activities later in life.

In several cases, the religious dimension of their faith community continued to mean very little to them as adults because they lacked a fundamental understanding of Orthodoxy. These participants continued to belong to their churches because of family and ethnic ties, and not because of religious connections.

Many Greek Orthodox participants’ impressions of the social, ethnic, and family dimensions of Greek Orthodoxy were viewed in highly positive terms. They stated that their Sunday experiences allowed them to form many treasured memories with family and friends that served to make a positive impact on their sense of self and the world around them. They further stated that being part of a community of people who were at once socially and ethnically interconnected appeared to impact them in positive terms.

 

[Kosta]

You weren’t alone, Kosta. Orthodox kids felt the same way.

Greek Orthodox Participants’ View of their Faith Tradition
goarch.org/archdiocese/departments/marriage/interfaith/interfaithresearchproject/greek-orthodox-participants2019-view-of-their-faith-tradition

Orthodox participants’ perceptions of the Greek Orthodox Church they attended were both respectful and critical. Participants indicated that the bonds they made as children with their respective faith communities as children were essentially familial, social, and ethnic in character. They also repeatedly talked about how little they knew about their church’s liturgical and doctrinal traditions. This lack of knowledge was often described as a handicap that negatively impacted their efforts to help (a) their children develop an Orthodox identity, and (b) their non-Orthodox spouse develop a deeper appreciation of Orthodoxy.

The ethno religious character of the Greek Orthodox experience was also discussed. Both positive and negative comments were offered about this dimension of community life.

The type of attitude that both the priest and congregation have toward intermarried couples and their families was also discussed. Participants generally concurred that a welcoming, tolerant attitude on the part of the priest and congregation were closely related to their level of commitment and participation. Despite their many critical observations, most participants generally stated that the “Greek Orthodox experience” remained important to them because it serves to assist them in their efforts to communicate with God and their neighbors.

1. Childhood Impressions

Greek Orthodox participants born in this country suggested their childhood impressions of the religious dimension of Greek Orthodox Church were moderately to highly negative in character. They typically described memories of “long boring” services that were celebrated "in Greek rather than their own English language.” They also stated that while many of their parents extolled the virtues of being Greek Orthodox, they failed to explain the faith in understandable terms. Their parents’ efforts to force and manipulate them into attending were also mentioned. Since many stopped attending church when they reached adolescence or went to college, many pointed out that their parents’ strategies were generally ineffective. Practicing their faith meant very little to them because they lacked a rudimentary understanding of their Orthodox faith background.

Many recalled how Sunday School lacked any depth and failed to be of much assistance in helping them understand Orthodoxy. Some stated that they obtained an understanding of Christianity when they attended non-Orthodox Bible studies and youth group activities later in life.

In several cases, the religious dimension of their faith community continued to mean very little to them as adults because they lacked a fundamental understanding of Orthodoxy. These participants continued to belong to their churches because of family and ethnic ties, and not because of religious connections.

Many Greek Orthodox participants’ impressions of the social, ethnic, and family dimensions of Greek Orthodoxy were viewed in highly positive terms. They stated that their Sunday experiences allowed them to form many treasured memories with family and friends that served to make a positive impact on their sense of self and the world around them. They further stated that being part of a community of people who were at once socially and ethnically interconnected appeared to impact them in positive terms.

Αnd? What, did you really expect me to say “Oh wow, Greek Americans find the Divine Liturgy of Saint Chrysostom boring! I ought to convert to Catholicism!” This to me seems like you’re pulling at threads, and why I find you to be a very negative person. It seems to me like you’re trying to rub it in, and that’s not right. They made their decision, I made mine. This is not a Catholic specific problem: I hope my Church can work through the cultural disconnect in our society. At my Church is brave enough to admit it there’s a problem and that it needs to be addressed and fixed. Yours gave in to the pressures of modern day society so you have eucharistic ministers and Christian rock during church. Did your ways work? No, it drove even more people away. I do my best to help people at Divine Liturgy, if they’re new or lost or even if they’re a longtime parishioner. I’ll be there for them, in spite of no one being there for me; that’s what being a Christian is all about.

Edit: For what it’s worth, I do not consider myself Greek-American or part of the Greek-American community. I am a Greek and an American, and I make a distinction between the two.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Αnd? What, did you really expect me to say “Oh wow, Greek Americans find the Divine Liturgy of Saint Chrysostom boring! I ought to convert to Catholicism!” This to me seems like you’re pulling at threads, and why I find you to be a very negative person.

What do I expect you to say?

Kosta, be real. You were bored in mass as a kid, you didn’t learn very much in the way of Catholic theology and you don’t study much now. I’m trying to be sympathetic to the fact that you left the Catholic Church, in part, because you had no clue what it really teaches.

So, what do I expect you to say? How about, “Maybe I ought to take a second look to see if I missed something?”

It seems to me like you’re trying to rub it in, and that’s not right. They made their decision, I made mine.

Uh…no. I’m trying to get people to THINK outside the box.

This is not a Catholic specific problem: I hope my Church can work through the cultural disconnect in our society. At my Church is brave enough to admit it there’s a problem and that it needs to be addressed and fixed.

No, Kosta. The EO who have been arguing with me for the past two months most decidedly do NOT admit that there is a problem. At least not online. They may have butterflies in their stomachs at night, but they don’t let on, if they do.

Yours gave in to the pressures of modern day society so you have eucharistic ministers and Christian rock during church. Did your ways work? No, it drove even more people away.

Oh. Okay. I’ll mention that to the music director at the next Sunday evening mass. She’s kinda busy, though…the youth choir is huge and the church is packed.

I do my best to help people at Divine Liturgy, if they’re new or lost or even if they’re a longtime parishioner. I’ll be there for them, in spite of no one being there for me; that’s what being a Christian is all about.

Great. Is that something that you could only do in an Orthodox Church? Or could you have been just as warm and friendly as a Catholic?

Edit: For what it’s worth, I do not consider myself Greek-American or part of the Greek-American community. I am a Greek and an American, and I make a distinction between the two.

Great. Again. But unfortunately, a lot of the papers written by Orthodox authors and available online seem to suggest that your Church leaders recognize that the ethnic character of your Church is a problem. And lots of folks in this forum have had really bad experiences with Orthodox priests when they visited. Maybe these were the exception, but there is a pattern that is observable for anyone who is not wearing Orthodox-colored glasses.

 

[Cavaradossi]

Receptivity…good…and now…

Private judgment. Perfect. Two for two. Exactly what I have been saying all along. :clapping:

Receptivity and Private Judgment are the one-two combination that has Orthodoxy up against the ropes will put it lights out on the canvas.

See, Cav, we’re no longer arguing about Photius or Honorius or Canon 28…we’re now talking about an issue that is much, much deeper, and there is NO answer to be found within Orthodoxy. There is no Father or Council to which you may appeal. The problem is that YOU, ultimately, do not need to appeal to them. YOU are the final arbiter, and YOU are their judge because YOU get to vote as to whether or not YOU will receive them.

The ONLY solution is to acknowledge the God-given authority of the successor of Peter to whom Jesus gave the keys of the office of Royal Steward. And once you finally see that, then the gift of the papacy will be a joy to you.

It’s as if you didn’t even read what I wrote. Even when the Church passes judgment on some matter, one still must interpret it. Every time you quote Scripture, a conciliar finding, a church father, etc., you are using your private judgment. It’s a limitation of human language and of the human mind. No pope or infallible authority can free you from that.

 

[Efnouti_Nai_Nan]

Is this thread for Randy Carson to try to convert Orthodox to Catholicism? It seems like that in a few posts. But it’s with a very negative stance which doesn’t really say anything persuasive to me. Randy Carson, is there something positive you can say for Catholicism on this particular issue that makes it the right choice? Because you have magestrium, and that’s good for you, but like I wrote a little while ago why can’t it work that our church operates differently than yours? If we both function okay and can know for ourselves what is ecumenical and what isn’t (as the non-Chalcedonian Orthodox like me have 3 councils and know why we don’t have more, and the Greeks have 7 and they know why, and you have however many Catholics have any you know why), then why do we need to be just like you? Because now you are getting away from the topic and want to talk about things like ethnicity and other things. You are not also some ethnicity? And I bet there are lots of Catholic churches in America where everyone or most people are from that same place. I have been to a Catholic church where I live and everyone was Mexican. I did not say “Oh, this is a big problem! The Catholic church must be only for the Mexicans!” That would be silly. So please can we get back to the topic of the thread?

It seems like you do not value or understand other churches and that they have other ways to do things. I think you pope Francis likes us more than you do, from what I have read in this thread.