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Mickey
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Why? He was condemned as a heretic. This was reiterated by many popes for many years.
Yes.
Yes.
Why should I deviate from the truth?
Orthodoxy makes the most sence. protestantism is just man made division. the question is latin or eastern Church?
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Mickey
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Mickey
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Correct. And we are praying for your return to Holy orthodoxy.
We disagree with what has become of the papacy after Rome went into schism. There are many other Western innovations—but this is a biggy.
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Mickey
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If Rome cannot preserve Her Liturgy, what makes you think…never mind.
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Mickey
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LOL! There is no such thing as “the Orthodox Church in communinon with the Pope”.
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Mickey
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Uh-oh–here come the polemics. Break out the conversion stories!
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gurneyhalleck1
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Mickey,
Do us all a favor and stop the laughter avatars and the eye-rolls and other sarcastic jabs as well as the sarcasm that seems to indicate we Catholics are mindless pea-brains who have no initiative or common sense. We don’t think that way of you. We all respect and think you are a bright guy who has deeply studied his faith, please extend the same courtesy to us. We can’t have an intelligent discussion with your throwing out the eye-rolls and moron faces…
Do us all a favor and stop the laughter avatars and the eye-rolls and other sarcastic jabs as well as the sarcasm that seems to indicate we Catholics are mindless pea-brains who have no initiative or common sense. We don’t think that way of you. We all respect and think you are a bright guy who has deeply studied his faith, please extend the same courtesy to us. We can’t have an intelligent discussion with your throwing out the eye-rolls and moron faces…
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gurneyhalleck1
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Wow, I issue a compliment to the Orthodox in how well they’ve maintained their liturgy and I get a back-handed smack-o to the jaw. Nice. The Catholic Church has preserved the liturgy completely. The problem is that in the translation to English some of the verbage is lacking in the opinion of many people, myself included. It could have been translated better. Also, the holding of hands is not a part of the rubrics nor is it something that should be there at all but at local levels some bishops and priests have been lax and let it in. Some of the music could stand to be dumped or changed as well. Some people take communion in the hand, something I deplore. That all being said (see I am honest about the shortcomings of my Church), in what way has the liturgy not been preserved? I think you betray a shallow understanding of the liturgy if you think it’s all bells, whistles and incense. It’s more than that, friend. The liturgy of the word, Eucharist, the collects, the epiclesis, the consecration, the elements, the entire liturgy is there in all its glory. Somehow you’ve come to feel that a few weak songs and a few innovations on the part of parishoners has tainted and destroyed the liturgy. As Spock would say, Fascinating…
If Rome cannot preserve Her Liturgy, what makes you think…never mind.
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Mickey
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These avatars have been provided by Catholic Answers. I use them to communicate emotions (sometimes they are called emoticons). I do not use them to denigrate you. And I certainly have never called you or anyone else a pea-brain with no initiative or common sense. I would never use such insults.
Nevertheless, if I have offended you—please forgive me.
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Mickey
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After your Liturgical compliment–you implied that the Orthodox theology is lacking. **That **is the “back-handed smack-o to the jaw”.
With all due respect, there were times (when I was Roman Catholic) that I felt I was at a protestant assembly (novus ordo). When the “charismatics” entered the picture, it sometimes resembled a Benny Hinn revival.
Yes. That used to drive me crazy! But it was downright orthodox compared to the RC charismatics being “slain in the Holy Spirit”, speaking in tongues, and waving their hands in the air to rock/pop music.
Amen.
Me too! We have more in common than I thought!
No. I do not think it is all bells and whistles and incense.
BTY–What do you think of the Tabernacle (holding the blessed sacrament) being shoved off to the side of the Church–or placed into a separate room? Have you seen the clown Mass? Have you seen the halloween Mass where “Eucharistic ministers” dressed as Satan were handing out the Eucharist? When did the Catholic Church begin using laity to administer the Eucharist? Why was the priest turned around?
Oh, I have so many questions.
It goes way beyond that–my friend. The innvotions that disturb me have to do with post schism doctrinal innovations. But then…we are way off track here.
Indeed!
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gurneyhalleck1
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Ok, let’s think about this. We’re on a Catholic message board and we’re getting angry about hearing a person making a heart-felt, soul-searching conversion to the Catholic Church? And that’s bad how?..
Uh-oh–here come the polemics. Break out the conversion stories!
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Mickey
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Angry? Who’s angry?
For every conversion story–there is an equal and opposite conversion story.
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gurneyhalleck1
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I’m not implying that it is lacking, I’m saying it’s lacking. I agree with Pope Benedict XVI that it is defective in that it is out of union with the papacy. The Orthodox lack the Rock. No implication. I’m not being coy.
After your Liturgical compliment–you implied that the Orthodox theology is lacking. **That **is the “back-handed smack-o to the jaw”.
With all due respect, there were times (when I was Roman Catholic) that I felt I was at a protestant assembly (novus ordo). When the “charismatics” entered the picture, it sometimes resembled a Benny Hinn revival.
Again, we have something in common, Benny Hinn drives me nuts. Now Benny Hill, loved him! I’m sorry you ran into a crop of charismatics. In all my years as a Catholic I’ve never once run into anything bizarre like that. Agreed, it’s lame. But I’d also remind you that reforms are coming and ongoing and much of this stuff is being dealt with. May God grant it happen sooner than later!
Yes. That used to drive me crazy! But it was downright orthodox compared to the RC charismatics being “slain in the Holy Spirit”, speaking in tongues, and waving their hands in the air to rock/pop music.
Amen.
Yes. I’m old school despite being a fairly young guy. I want Latin, priest facing the altar, incense, and the N.O. outsky.
Me too! We have more in common than I thought!
No. I do not think it is all bells and whistles and incense.
It’s funny you should mention that. Our monsignor is renovating the sanctuary and the carpet in the Church, some other small things and he is making sure to move the tabernacle behind the altar where it belongs. When he announced it, the entire congregation cheered in unison. Our tabernacle has always been shoved off to the side; agreed, I don’t like it. And part of the reforms that are coming are starting here locally, moving it where it belongs. Never in my life heard of the bizarre Halloween crew you’re talking about, I must say. And I HATE Eucharistic ministers. No argument there, Mickey. I hate it when they try to bless my kid (like they have that authority or ability) and I hate the fact there are so many of them when we have plenty of priests. Turning the priest around wasn’t so great either and I’m not happy about the laity having that much buy-in. No arguments.
BTY–What do you think of the Tabernacle (holding the blessed sacrament) being shoved off to the side of the Church–or placed into a separate room? Have you seen the clown Mass? Have you seen the halloween Mass where “Eucharistic ministers” dressed as Satan were handing out the Eucharist? When did the Catholic Church begin using laity to administer the Eucharist? Why was the priest turned around?
Don’t we all…
Oh, I have so many questions.
It goes way beyond that–my friend. The innvotions that disturb me have to do with post schism doctrinal innovations. But then…we are way off track here.
Indeed!
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gurneyhalleck1
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Putting in writing an already understood fact of life isn’t an innovation or heresy to me…
As you know, all heresy is to be condemned. But when a Pope falls under the condemnation of heresy, it is very easy to see that the 1870 doctrine of supremacy/infallibility was an innovation.
Remember, Honorius was our Pope too.
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Bluegoat
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I haven’t read all of this long thread.
But what strikes me is that if the Orthodox are right, the rest of us are all just protestants.
But what strikes me is that if the Orthodox are right, the rest of us are all just protestants.
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gurneyhalleck1
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I don’t need context. I’ve read the entire sordid mess chronicled in detail. And the context is that Honorius was given a pitiful letter by Sergius and Honorius wasn’t given much information on Monothelitism nor was he well-versed in it. He had some serious matters at hand with the Lombard barbarians, right? Also communications were very poor between Constantinople and Rome at that time for obvious reasons. It has been made clear that Honorius simply thought Monothelitism as he understood it in bits and pieces would be a good way to reconcile the Monophosytes. And what about good ole’ Heraclius, the Emperor, and the Orthodox Patriarch of Constantinople, Sergius, who concocted this heresy? It’s funny how all the heresies always came out of the East and all the un-Christian feldercarb that had to be dealt with was by Eastern bishops and patriarchs who easily adopted this stuff? Honorius never proclaimed it to be doctrine and he never once officially sanctioned or encouraged Monothelitism, a fact that must drive Orthodox ready to prove him a heretic crazy!
His two letters were ordered to be burned and were labeled as** “hurtful to the soul”. **
There is some context for you.****
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gurneyhalleck1
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Mickey
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**I’m not implying that it is lacking, I’m saying it’s lacking. ** Of course you are.
**I agree with Pope Benedict XVI that it is defective in that it is out of union with the papacy.**And that is because he is…uh…er…infallible?
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Mickey
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In all my years as a Catholic I’ve never once run into anything bizarre like that. Take a visit to Fransican University some time.
gurneyhalleck1;6377075:
Things move awful slow at Rome. I hope you are correct. But I wouldn’t hold your breath.
I want Latin, priest facing the altar, incense, and the N.O. outsky. You’ll never see the N.O. completely outsky.
gurneyhalleck1:
Never in my life heard of the bizarre Halloween crew you’re talking about, I must say.It turns the stomach.
And I HATE Eucharistic ministers. I’m sure you do not hate them personally–just the innovation.
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Mickey
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Already understood by Pius IX and the ultramontanists.
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