Orthodoxy makes the most sence. protestantism is just man made division. the question is latin or eastern Church?

[josie_L]

I wish I could go by what you say…but its a circular argumant that would never end…
People that live where Orthodox are the majority could argue that they have more influence
In there lands. Also Roman Catholics have the most charities because they are by far the largest richest Christian group…this dose not mean Orthodox are not duing charity work…or making a stand against immorality.

That is the basic…we are the true church because we are most dominant argument. But Orthodox would simply say that it was the sword that spread catholosism.

And what is the state of the society in those countries wherein Orthodoxy is the presiding (state sanctioned) religion?

Edit: And Orthodox who say that Catholicism spread through the sword are spouting falsehoods (priests like the Jesuits of which there were/are many traveled far and wide hoping to evangelize the world).

 

[wisdomseeker]

I tried to answer that we don’t need one infalible man if we don’t change anything.
And handle all major issues in councils just as the early church.

i cannot understand what you mean by changing anything. the CC still calls Councils to settle issues just like the early Church did. EO cannot call a Council because there is no one in charge to call a Council. some of them dont even speak to each other let alone let one or the other to call a Council. some of them still comes to the pope to settle issues for them.

 

[LionHeart777]

IMO,

if the Bishops of Rome seized authority or at least layed claim to an authority beyond that of any other Bishop, then they did so very early. I say this because of the actions of Pope St. Victor in threatening to excommunicate Eastern Bishops for celebrating Easter on the 14th of Nisan (spelling?)

 

[excaliber]

And what is the state of the society in those countries wherein Orthodoxy is the presiding (state sanctioned) religion?

Edit: And Orthodox who say that Catholicism spread through the sword are spouting falsehoods (priests like the Jesuits of which there were/are many traveled far and wide hoping to evangelize the world).

Even Roman Catholics will admit that The western church is larger then any other because of the sword. Also Orthodox have had serious persecutions that slowed the spread of Orthodoxy

 

[wisdomseeker]

Jews, Muslims and even Atheists can pull quotes from the Bible to support their views and condemn Christians (and often times they do. Just throwing a quote out there to support your position does no one any good. It just shows that you can copy/paste. I find that reading the quote in its proper context, in conjunction with the whole of Tradition does everyone a much greater service.

As to why I’m here at CAF, I love to dialogue about Christianity (and other things like politics and society) with people. I’m not here to convert anyone, nor do I want people to try to convert me. A forum is supposed to be a place of discussion, which is what I like about CAF (in spite of certain flaws from other members, excluding yourself).

In Christ,
Andrew

i think if we have to write everything would take too long.
but feel free to quote them in context instead of provoking arguments by criticism. there is no need for criticism just present what ever you think we quoted out of context. to me those quote says what it says. i dont see how you can do any other way. do you think that if you quote the whole think the content is going to change?

 

[wisdomseeker]

Even Roman Catholics will admit that The western church is larger then any other because of the sword. Also Orthodox have had serious persecutions that slowed the spread of Orthodoxy

really? what do you think it happened to the CC? England, germany protestants, USA, Mexico, France, East, and every other place that i have not mentioned.

 

[josie_L]

Glory to Jesus Christ!

If you are interested in dialogging about Orthodoxy or have sincere questions, I would suggest visiting an Orthodox forum. Sadly, you’ll find much misinformation about Orthodoxy here from well-meaning Catholics. I don’t think this is the place for you to get an accurate representation from Orthodoxy. I guarantee most, if not all of these people have set foot in an Orthodox church for Divine Services or read Orthodox books. I wish you the best on your journey. Feel free to PM any time.

In Christ,
Andrew

But the problem is that quite a few Orthodox (especially converts) misunderstand the Catholic position, therefore if Excaliber were seeking to better understand the Catholic position of papal infallibility it would make little sense to visit an Orthodox forum.

 

[josie_L]

Even Roman Catholics will admit that The western church is larger then any other because of the sword. Also Orthodox have had serious persecutions that slowed the spread of Orthodoxy

Can you name these examples? And it only takes a priest with enough spirit to spread the faith throughout the world (and not all of orthodoxy was under persecution).

 

[jimmy]

Usually I find such a response when people don’t like what they read in the quotes! Are you suggesting that I’m taking them out of context? And I appreciate your “let’s be honest” admonition. I always strive to be. No one in here will accuse me of lying or being a shrinking violet…

If you feel you can’t convince me, and I can’t convince you, what, and I ask this respectfully trust me (!), is your purpose in coming to CAF? If you don’t have an open mind and are not Catholic you would just want to argue or try and convert Catholics to Orthodoxy? What’s the motivation? Hey, sometimes the cows do come home!

I have read enough of the quotes that are used to support the papacy to know that they are often taken out of context. The best is when people try to quote Cyril of Firmillian to support their ideas of the papacy.

 

[jimmy]

IMO,

if the Bishops of Rome seized authority or at least layed claim to an authority beyond that of any other Bishop, then they did so very early. I say this because of the actions of Pope St. Victor in threatening to excommunicate Eastern Bishops for celebrating Easter on the 14th of Nisan (spelling?)

The question I have is, how is that a claim of authority? Excommunication is simply breaking communion.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

If your claim is that I put up quotes out of context, I say prove that they’re out of context. Show me the rest of the context around them that would, strangely, contradict the papal message they so obviously give us? Go find the rest of the context that you think I’m holding back and prove me wrong. Firmillian was no papalist, I’d never presume so much. History proved Firmillian wrong on the issue of the lapsi, too!

I have read enough of the quotes that are used to support the papacy to know that they are often taken out of context. The best is when people try to quote Cyril of Firmillian to support their ideas of the papacy.

 

[excaliber]

The reason the discusion on infalability go on without ever being solved…unlike discusions on the athority of the church, The Trinity,baptism, faith or works etc…
Is because there is enuf information in scripture or some athoritative source on the matter.
So a discusion on those issues can always be solved.

However Papal infalability is a discusion that is never solved but come up again and again because there are no scriptures or any athoritative information that directly says anything about all bishops in rome being infalible. So we end up with a bunch of quotes from one father taking the western side…then a father taking the eastern side and it just goes back and forth. Because scriptures can be found that say something or the other about peter, but none will say he was infalible. So we end up with scriptures that need a long bridge of outside information to get infalibility out of them.

Technicaly The Orthodox are just as old, and it dose not look like the early church was as the Roman Catholic church is today. So if the burden of proof is on the Roman catholics…its like being in a trial where the prosecution has no major evidence…but has a million quotes of he said she said and a lot of stretching of evidence to get to there conclusion…that trial would simply go on and on because one is inocent till proven guilty.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I’m not sure what you want from everyone in this forum? Do you know what you want? You don’t want to see quotes that obviously prove the papal infallibility you’re trying to disprove, you don’t read the quotes and just dismiss them, you reject everyone’s arguments. Sounds like you’ve made up your own mind and better go get chrismated. Why come in and dialogue with people if you’ve made up your mind?

What is wrong with quotations from the Fathers? Have you gotten to a point you don’t want to hear what they say because it goes against the theories you’re developing? I don’t mean to sound gruff but you sound like you’ve made up your mind, just want to antagonize or blow off steam, and you’re not as confused about the issue as you claim. Or maybe you are confused and aren’t open to reading statements from saints that point in the other direction? I don’t know either way. May God bless you on your journey. I’ve been where you are, friend, many times but I will say this. It is the Holy Season of Lent right now. Take the time to live out your Lent and praise almighty God. Offer up this Lent for Him and throw the ecclesiastical mental debate to the side. When Easter has come and gone, then resume your search. You should focus on Lent and the coming of Easter now. God bless you.

You are correct, I have seen it with my own eyes…both Orthodox and Roman Catholics both
Posting quote after endless quote and knowone gets anywhere. Plus aren’t these falible men we end up quoting?

 

[josie_L]

The question I have is, how is that a claim of authority? Excommunication is simply breaking communion.

Because Pope St. Victor had the authority as supreme guardian of Christian tradition, that is, universal jurisdiction (of which he was well aware of and which he could exercise) to excommunicate (including all Asian churches who were celebrating Easter on a day other than Sunday) those who failed to live up to tradition.

 

[jimmy]

If your claim is that I put up quotes out of context, I say prove that they’re out of context. Show me the rest of the context around them that would, strangely, contradict the papal message they so obviously give us? Go find the rest of the context that you think I’m holding back and prove me wrong. Firmillian was no papalist, I’d never presume so much. History proved Firmillian wrong on the issue of the lapsi, too!

My post isn’t specifically about your quotes. I haven’t read your quotes. I have grown a little synical towards posts that quote the fathers so I tend not to even read them. This is partly because when people quote the fathers they are just cuting and pasting from Catholic Answers or some other site, and partly because they are often taken out of context.

 

[josie_L]

If your claim is that I put up quotes out of context, I say prove that they’re out of context. Show me the rest of the context around them that would, strangely, contradict the papal message they so obviously give us? Go find the rest of the context that you think I’m holding back and prove me wrong. Firmillian was no papalist, I’d never presume so much. History proved Firmillian wrong on the issue of the lapsi, too!

Only those who held heretical or innovative beliefs/customs disagreed with or questioned the primacy of the bishop of Rome (including Firmillian).

p.s. Hi Scott

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Problem is, I could show you a million examples of the pope being the final authority in heretical matters, show you cases where he was the final word, tell you all the amazing things the papacy has done and how it was indeed what it says it is but you don’t want to hear it and you won’t read it. You’re looking through a sola scriptura lens. Each comment you make harkens to “it’s not strong enough in scripture.” You obviously want to become an Orthodox and for some reason you think that everything they do is plainly in Scripture, which isn’t true, and you want to join up. I’d be interested to know the source of your angst against Catholicism and where and when and at what point you became disgruntled with the Catholic faith but it sounds like you’ve made up your mind. Good luck with Orthodoxy.

The reason the discusion on infalability go on without ever being solved…unlike discusions on the athority of the church, The Trinity,baptism, faith or works etc…
Is because there is enuf information in scripture or some athoritative source on the matter.
So a discusion on those issues can always be solved.

However Papal infalability is a discusion that is never solved but come up again and again because there are no scriptures or any athoritative information that directly says anything about all bishops in rome being infalible. So we end up with a bunch of quotes from one father taking the western side…then a father taking the eastern side and it just goes back and forth. Because scriptures can be found that say something or the other about peter, but none will say he was infalible. So we end up with scriptures that need a long bridge of outside information to get infalibility out of them.

Technicaly The Orthodox are just as old, and it dose not look like the early church was as the Roman Catholic church is today. So if the burden of proof is on the Roman catholics…its like being in a trial where the prosecution has no major evidence…but has a million quotes of he said she said and a lot of stretching of evidence to get to there conclusion…that trial would simply go on and on because one is inocent till proven guilty.

 

[jimmy]

Because Pope St. Victor had the authority as supreme guardian of Christian tradition, that is, universal jurisdiction (of which he was well aware of and which he could exercise) to excommunicate (including all Asian churches who were celebrating Easter on a day other than Sunday) those who failed to live up to tradition.

Excommunication says nothing of authority. What p. Victor did is perfectly in line with the Orthodox view of the Church. As I said, excommunication is simply breaking communion (just look at the word ex-communication). Any church could break communion with any other according to the eastern understanding. Only according to the west is it a statement of authority over the other church. You can’t show that it is even a statement of authority according to P. Victor.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Amen sister. You’re right. Firmillian and Cyprian didn’t have problems with the papacy until they didn’t get their way. Cyprian was a loyal son of the Church and to the Holy Father until he was told “no” and things changed. Hi back to you too, Josie!!

Only those who held heretical or innovative beliefs/customs disagreed with or questioned the primacy of the bishop of Rome (including Firmillian).

p.s. Hi Scott

 

[josie_L]

I’m not sure what you want from everyone in this forum? Do you know what you want? You don’t want to see quotes that obviously prove the papal infallibility you’re trying to disprove, you don’t read the quotes and just dismiss them, you reject everyone’s arguments. **Sounds like you’ve made up your own mind and better go get chrismated. ** Why come in and dialogue with people if you’ve made up your mind?

He might have to be rebaptized depending upon which diocese he is a part of (that is if he converts).