Orthodoxy makes the most sence. protestantism is just man made division. the question is latin or eastern Church?

[Mickey]

Hey, your post seemed to suggest that you are making a statement that the CC endorses contraception

Start a thread.

Call it: “Does the Catholic Church endorse contraception”?

 

[crazzeto]

Start a thread.

Call it: “Does the Catholic Church endorse contraception”?

Tell you what, I’ll give you the honor of making the first argument there. Start the thread, post your position and proofs since you are obviously taking the position that the Church does this.

 

[AMDGtoo]

The Orthodox Churches, and presumably the Eastern Catholic Churches don’t even officially recognise any number, although those seven are commonly held to be Holy Mysteries.

Now I can say that you are incorrect. You see, although I am Latin Rite, I am welcome in the Eastern Rites (and they do claim to be "in union with the Successor of Peter–the man Jesus chose in Matthew 16:18-19.) I have gone to a Divine Liturgy and received Communion (one of the Sacraments in the Latin Rite and called Mysteries in the Rutherian Byzantine Catholic Rite that I attended–oh as you know, Catholic “Sacraments”/“Mysteries” of Communion are closed to non-Catholics.) Friend is of the Byzantine Rite, and she does fine moving between the Latin Rite and her Byzantine Rite. Afterall, both are Catholic and both are “in union with Rome”.

BTW, if one wants so badly to use abbreviations, a simply CC (not the inaccurate RCC) covers it. The Catholic Church covers 22 Rites–Western and Eastern. Technically, there is no such “animal” as the Roman Catholic Church.

Oh, and just because the Bishop at Alexanderia first used the term “Pope” (from pappas–which is from the Greek) does not take away from the fact that the Bishop of Rome is known as “the Pope” (also from pappas–which is from the Greek) or that Peter was the Bishop of Rome or the importance of the Bishop of Rome (you might want to read St. Irenaeus, bishop of Lyons about 180-200 A.D., work Against Heresies–this statement:
"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a small volume as this the successions of all the Churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked oinion assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient Church known to all founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious Apostles, Peter and Paul, ** that Church which has the tradition and the faith** which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the Apostles. For with this Church, because of its superior origin, all the Churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world; and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the Apostolic Tradition" (3,3,2 Jurgens) St Irenaeus goes on to name all the Popes (Bishops of Rome) up until his time. (Any public library has the complete list up until our time.)

And if you all think that an Apostle is an Apostle, then I fail to see your objection to the Apostle Thomas’ Christian community that he started in India.

 

[crazzeto]

E. Orthodox seem to make the mistake that the Eastern Catholic Churches are just like them, only they’re in communion with Rome. But I don’t think the Orthodox understand what in communion with Rome means, we all beleive the exact same thing. The only tangible difference is style of worship, and some traditions.

The Eastern Catholics have 7 sacraments, they’re the same 7 the Roman Rite Catholics have. They accept all of the Eccumenical councils, we all beleive the same things. We’re all Catholic first, our rite second.

 

[Mickey]

Tell you what, I’ll give you the honor of making the first argument there. Start the thread, post your position and proofs since you are obviously taking the position that the Church does this.

Tell ya what, pal–one of your fellow catholics resuscitated the subject. If you have an interest in this, search the forum–there are multitudes of threads. Or start your own.

 

[Mickey]

E. Orthodox seem to make the mistake that the Eastern Catholic Churches are just like them, only they’re in communion with Rome. But I don’t think the Orthodox understand what in communion with Rome means, we all beleive the exact same thing. The only tangible difference is style of worship, and some traditions.

The Eastern Catholics have 7 sacraments, they’re the same 7 the Roman Rite Catholics have. They accept all of the Eccumenical councils, we all beleive the same things. We’re all Catholic first, our rite second.

Wrong. I was Eastern Catholic for eight years. Here are some of the things I was told by clergy:

1. We are under the Pope–but not really.
2. We don’t call it the Immaculate Conception–we call it The Conception of the Mother of God by St Anna.
3. We have a different understanding of purgatory.
4. We do not say the Filioque–it is theologically wrong.

 

[Mickey]

founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious Apostles, Peter and Paul

Yes. Rome. One of the five ancient Patriachates. The ancient capital city of Christianity. Thoroughly Orthodox in her faith until Rome went into schism during the second millennium. Founded by the glorious apostles SS Peter **and **Paul.

 

[crazzeto]

Wrong. I was Eastern Catholic for eight years. Here are some of the things I was told by clergy:

1. We are under the Pope–but not really.
2. We don’t call it the Immaculate Conception–we call it The Conception of the Mother of God by St Anna.
3. We have a different understanding of purgatory.
4. We do not say the Filioque–it is theologically wrong.

You don’t say the Filioque in Greek, because in the greek it is wrong. In the Western Rite it’s said, because it’s completely Orthodox in Latin. Easterners don’t reject the Immaculate Conception, the Pope isn’t both the head of your rite and church as is the case for Roman Rite Catholics, but Eastern Rite Catholics most certainly are under the Pope. The Easter beliefs of Purgatory, most certainly don’t violate the doctrinal teaching.

Perhaps you, as an Eastern Orthodox convert, simply have a colored view and are grasping at anything to try and prove Eastern Rite Catholics reject “Popery”.

 

[Mickey]

Perhaps you, as an Eastern Orthodox convert, simply have a colored view and are grasping at anything to try and prove Eastern Rite Catholics reject “Popery”.

Nope. Just stating some things that I heard once upon a time.

Popery? Why do you use this derogatory term to describe your faith?

 

[Nine_Two]

Now I can say that you are incorrect. You see, although I am Latin Rite, I am welcome in the Eastern Rites (and they do claim to be "in union with the Successor of Peter–the man Jesus chose in Matthew 16:18-19.) I have gone to a Divine Liturgy and received Communion (one of the Sacraments in the Latin Rite and called Mysteries in the Rutherian Byzantine Catholic Rite that I attended–oh as you know, Catholic “Sacraments”/“Mysteries” of Communion are closed to non-Catholics.) Friend is of the Byzantine Rite, and she does fine moving between the Latin Rite and her Byzantine Rite. Afterall, both are Catholic and both are “in union with Rome”.

I never stated you weren’t in communion with them. Where did you get that? I said presumably (as in I’m not sure but I’m basing it off other similarities they have with Orthodox) they do not number the sacraments.

BTW, if one wants so badly to use abbreviations, a simply CC (not the inaccurate RCC) covers it. The Catholic Church covers 22 Rites–Western and Eastern. Technically, there is no such “animal” as the Roman Catholic Church.

Roman Catholic Church is used to refer specifically to the Western rite. I don’t think I used the reference, but if I do, that’s why I’ll be using it.

Oh, and just because the Bishop at Alexanderia first used the term “Pope” (from pappas–which is from the Greek) does not take away from the fact that the Bishop of Rome is known as “the Pope” (also from pappas–which is from the Greek) or that Peter was the Bishop of Rome or the importance of the Bishop of Rome (you might want to read St. Irenaeus, bishop of Lyons about 180-200 A.D., work Against Heresies–this statement:
"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a small volume as this the successions of all the Churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked oinion assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient Church known to all founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious Apostles, Peter and Paul, ** that Church which has the tradition and the faith** which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the Apostles. For with this Church, because of its superior origin, all the Churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world; and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the Apostolic Tradition" (3,3,2 Jurgens) St Irenaeus goes on to name all the Popes (Bishops of Rome) up until his time. (Any public library has the complete list up until our time.)

I did not argue that the Pope never had certain perogatives, I argued that the title itself is not what carries those privilages, and it isn’t even a title exclusive to Rome.

And if you all think that an Apostle is an Apostle, then I fail to see your objection to the Apostle Thomas’ Christian community that he started in India.

Where did I object to it?

 

[AMDGtoo]

I was Eastern Catholic for eight years. Here are some of the things I was told by clergy:

1. We are under the Pope–but not really.
2. We don’t call it the Immaculate Conception–we call it The Conception of the Mother of God by St Anna.
3. We have a different understanding of purgatory.
4. We do not say the Filioque–it is theologically wrong.

As I said, I am a Latin Rite Catholic. And I am welcome at the Rutherian Byzantine Catholic rite by me. In fact, they insist (publish a bulletin) that they are indeed “in union” with the Pope. And they even list a number of their activities in a close by Latin Rite Catholic parish’s bulletin.

I really was introduced to the Eastern branch of our Catholic Church when an Eastern Rite Catholic Chaplain needed to provide help to our Latin Rite Chapel. He had bi-faculties and it was no problem for him to celebrate Mass and the Sacraments. (He in turn, introduced us to a very rich and beautiful history, Spirituality classes, beautiful chanted prayers, and the Divine Liturgy.

Oh and just because you don’t call something the same name (ie the Immaculate Conception) that doesn’t mean that the concept behind the words is not the same (“Mother of God” = “Theotakos”; “Ever-virgin” = “Aeiparthenos”; “Immaculate Conception” = “the Panagia or “All-Holy” who is free from any stain of sin, as though fashioned by the Holy Spirit and formed as a new creature”; the “Assumption” = the “Dormition”; etc.)

 

[josie_L]

How odd that the Pope of Rome would claim he has responsibility for the whole Church.

Exactly, my point Mickey so stop implying that he denies the primacy and all that it entails (petrine promise, universal jurisdiction, keybearer, Peter as “rock”. . . ).

I’ve read his views. Those two quotes are as close as he comes to recognizing the innovation of the 1870 doctrine of infallibility.

He never said such a thing in either quotes you gave. Moreover, have you read the book “Called to Communion”?

 

[Mickey]

Exactly, my point Mickey so stop implying that he denies the primacy and all that it entails

Oh no my dear–I am not saying that the Pope of Rome denies his role as supreme infallible pontiff. He would not have the position if he did.

He does however attempt to show (with those quotes) that the West may have gone a little too far with their definitions in 1870.

He never said such a thing in either quotes you gave.

It was implied.

 

[Mickey]

Mother of God" = “Theotakos”;

Spelled Theotokos.

Immaculate Conception = Panagia

Wrong. Panagia is a beautiful title for Our Lady (often used by the monks on Mt Athos and elsewhere). It has **NOTHING **to do with innovated doctrine of the IC.

Assumption = Dormition

The Feast of the Dormition tells us that Our Lady fell asleep in the Lord. Does the Assumption tell you this?

 

[Mickey]

have you read the book “Called to Communion”?

Is this book infallible? Just kidding.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

You make my point for me. You talk about how infallible, holy, and flawless Orthodoxy is, a refuge from the tainted, abuse-laden protestant-like Catholics. But in reality, you guys have just as many screwed up individuals and tainted doctrines. Counseling with a spiritual father goes against Scripture and Tradition. The Lord forbade divorce and remarriage except in cases of sexual infidelity or perversion, something serious. His tone is that divorce should be rare. I find the Catholic annulments very frustrating as well. But at least Catholics don’t set an arbitrary number “three” for divorces? That’s just plain weird. And incidentally, it is not uncommon for people to wait 2, 3, 5 years to get an annulment in the Catholic Church. I’ve never met anyone who characterized it as “easy!” You’re the first.

It is not easy. There is much counseling with a spiritual father or priest before the dissolution of the marriage. However, I have always been fascinated how easy it is to get an annulment.
Wow, I’m shocked that you actually believe the Catholic Church allows contraception? What rock have you lived under? NFP is by no means contraception. It makes use of the body, a woman’s natural cycle, doesn’t impede conception, so how is it contra? Contra is against, frustration, impeding. How can abstaining and intercourse during an infertile period impede conception? The Orthodox more and more are flat-out telling parishoners, “go ahead.” But I notice in the Orthodox Church everyone thinks that anything is ok as long as “Mr. X visited his spiritual father, a counselor.” “Yep, we’re contracepting, breaking the will of God, going against 2,000 years of Church precedent and theology, but it’s ok because we got the ok from our presbyter!” “Yep, I’ve remarried twice. In fact, I have one more shot if this one doesn’t work out since we have a third time’s a charm policy. Plus, my spiritual director ok’d it!” My point is this–many people leave Catholicism saying it has bought into protestant theology and liberalism, tainted by this age. Going to Orthodoxy in this regard is actually not a lateral move but really more liberal. Some Catholic priests and many Catholics themselves use birth control, but not with a rubber stamp approval by the Pope. The official teachings are against it.
So do you. Wait a minute–this sounds familiar.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Spelled Theotokos.
Wrong. Panagia is a beautiful title for Our Lady (often used by the monks on Mt Athos and elsewhere). It has **NOTHING **to do with innovated doctrine of the IC.

The Catholic Church takes no position that Mary was alive or dead, simply assumed, body and soul. How is your point relevent?
The Feast of the Dormition tells us that Our Lady fell asleep in the Lord. Does the Assumption tell you this?

 

[Mickey]

You talk about how infallible, holy, and flawless Orthodoxy is,

The Church is Holy, yes. But can you quote where I have said the people are infallible and flawless?!?

The Lord forbade divorce and remarriage except in cases of sexual infidelity or perversion, something serious.

Yes. Our Lord made exceptions out of His infinite mercy and compassion.

I find the Catholic annulments very frustrating as well.

That’s nice. Start another thread if you wish. Annulments have been debated to death.

I’ve never met anyone who characterized it as “easy!” You’re the first.

Boy do I have some stories for you.

 

[Mickey]

NFP is by no means contraception.

Yes it is. Start another thread. The subject of contraception has been debated to death.

And I will ask you again. Please learn how to use the quote function instead of responding in one box with color differentials. It is confusing for everyone.

 

[Mickey]

The Catholic Church takes no position that Mary was alive or dead

That’s what I figured.

Please learn how to use the quote function properly.