Orthodoxy & Mortal Sin

[Vico]

I once heard Fr. Larry Richards say that mortal sin is “when it’s wrong, you know it’s wrong, and you do it anyway”. Well, if you think Orthodoxy is more correct than Catholicism, you don’t think what you’re doing is wrong at all. Would that make it not mortal?

EDIT: also mortal sin has to be a “grave matter” apparently

Catechism

1790 … Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.

1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. …

1792 Ignorance of Christ and his Gospel, bad example given by others, enslavement to one’s passions, assertion of a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience, rejection of the Church’s authority and her teaching, lack of conversion and of charity: these can be at the source of errors of judgment in moral conduct.

1793 If - on the contrary - the ignorance is invincible, or the moral subject is not responsible for his erroneous judgment, the evil committed by the person cannot be imputed to him. …

 

[ziapueblo]

The Church does not see the Orthodox as being in “schism”. Have you read Unitatis Redintegratio, Ut Unum Sint or the Balamand Statement?

ZP

 

[Tis_Bearself]

We differ on this issue and I am not interested in discussing further or engaging in apologetics on behalf of the Orthodox.

I think you are leading people seriously astray with your posts and I have no desire to encourage you to post more and perhaps lead people down a sinful path. Sad. Good day to you.

 

[ziapueblo]

Hmm

None of what I have stated is my personal opinion but what the Church teaches. You should research more about what the Catholic Church actually teaches about the Orthodox.

I’m sorry that you think I’m leading people astray. Did I make a post encouraging someone to join the Orthodox Church? I am Byzantine Catholic and am in communion with Rome.

Side note: Byzantines and other Eastern Catholics are not Roman whether liturgically or theologically.

ZP

 

[Salibi]

The Orthodox have the Eucharist and Jesus said that unless you partake of it you will not have life within you…good enough for me.

Like I said, Orthodox born into Orthodoxy are well placed to reach Heaven by being devout Orthodox. Catholics who convert to Orthodoxy are in mortal sin. It’s a different issue if the Churches unite, but right now Orthodoxy is in schism.

Thank you for your opinion. However, what the OP is looking for is Catholic truth, not your opinion.

 

[Salibi]

Ultimately each person has to decide for him/herself whether or not being in Communion with Rome is worth it or

Oh boy… this needs a post all by itself. You don’t think being in communion with Peter is “worth it”?

 

[ziapueblo]

I have no personal knowledge of this, only what I am told by those whom I know, both Byzantine Catholic and Orthodox. In places like the Middle East and parts of Eastern Europe, both Eastern Catholics and Orthodox often see each other as the same Church. They inter-commune in each other’s Churches (sometimes the Melkite Church is just easier to get to on a particular Sunday than driving to the next village where the Antiochian Orthodox Church is). I’m sure this must be true, especially in places like Syria where the Antiochian Orthodox Church may be the only Church still standing in a particular village.

I’m sure they would laugh at our bickering, but what do I know.

ZP

 

[Angel_Gabriel]

No, there really is no need for a thread discussing this…it gets entirely too polemical and hateful and ultimately will be closed before anything positive can happen. As an Eastern Catholic I do think there is merit in being in Communion with Rome as a source of unity. I’m a big proponent of the Zoghby Initiative even though it was unfortunately rejected.

 

[ReaderT]

I once heard Fr. Larry Richards say that mortal sin is “ when it’s wrong, you know it’s wrong, and you do it anyway ”. Well, if you think Orthodoxy is more correct than Catholicism, you don’t think what you’re doing is wrong at all. Would that make it not mortal?

EDIT: also mortal sin has to be a “grave matter” apparently

Thank you. I’m not up to date with my Catechism
Could you clarify: if a Catholic truly believes Orthodoxy is more correct (and therefore doesn’t think what they’re doing is wrong), would they be in mortal sin if they convert?

 

[Vico]

The Church does not see the Orthodox as being in “schism”. Have you read Unitatis Redintegratio, Ut Unum Sint or the Balamand Statement?

ZP

One interesting dogma of faith from Vatican I:

Therefore, if anyone says that blessed Peter the apostle was not appointed by Christ the lord as prince of all the apostles and visible head of the whole church militant; or that it was a primacy of honour only and not one of true and proper jurisdiction that he directly and immediately received from our lord Jesus Christ himself: let him be anathema .

 

[dochawk]

I agree. The separation between East and West is internal.

I share this apparently unpopular opinion with @ziapueblo. The hierarchs lack the authority hold this schism, and need to get their tails together. It’s not two churches, one of which is right, but one church improperly not working with itself.

Catholics who convert to Orthodoxy are in mortal sin.

just for my love of money wrenches . . . (:crazy_face . . . Eastern theology, Orthodox and Catholic (or at least byzantine; I’m not familiar with oriental . . .) does not draw a distinction between mortal and venial sin (yet, both EO and EC theologians have taken time to write volumes about it : . . .)

 

[halogirl]

So in Eastern theology, does any sin have the power to cut you off from God ?) What RC would call venial sin in other words )

 

[ziapueblo]

From the OCA website:

https://oca.org/questions/sacramentconfession/sin

Hope this helps.

ZP

 

[ReaderT]

So in Eastern theology, does any sin have the power to cut you off from God ?) What RC would call venial sin in other words )

In a sense no. Because God is the “Heavenly King, O Comforter, the Spirit of Truth, who is everywhere present and fills all things” - He fills everything: Heaven, Earth, even the realm of the dead!

 

[dochawk]

So in Eastern theology, does any sin have the power to cut you off from God ?) What RC would call venial sin in other words )

The nature of sin is that it is a separation from God. While there are degrees of this, the East doesn’t quantify them (except when it does anyway). The either/or at a specific level just doesn’t fit Eastern thinking.

A useful way of looking at it is that the western approach is judicial, while the eastern is medical.

Hope this helps.

That may be the best explanation I’ve ever seen of this!

hawk

 

[Genesis315]

From the Catechism: 2089 schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.

Conversion to one of the separated Eastern Churches necessarily entails both of these things. Schism would be a mortal sin with the usual conditions. I have no doubt there are persons in the EO Churches that are in good faith and not guilty of schism and therefore benefit from their sacraments unto salvation. There are also likely those guilty of remaining or entering into schism–their sacraments do not benefit them while they remain in this state.

As the Catholic Church has always taught:

St. Jerome, Letter 15 to St. Damasus I:

As I follow no leader save Christ, so I communicate with none but your blessedness, that is with the chair of Peter. For this, I know, is the rock on which the church is built! Matthew 16:18 This is the house where alone the paschal lamb can be rightly eaten. Exodus 12:22 This is the Ark of Noah, and he who is not found in it shall perish when the flood prevails.

Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam

Urged by faith, we are obliged to believe and to maintain that the Church is one, holy, catholic, and also apostolic. We believe in her firmly and we confess with simplicity that outside of her there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins, as the Spouse in the Canticles [Sgs 6:8] proclaims: ‘One is my dove, my perfect one. She is the only one, the chosen of her who bore her,‘ and she represents one sole mystical body whose Head is Christ and the head of Christ is God [1 Cor 11:3]. In her then is one Lord, one faith, one baptism [Eph 4:5]. There had been at the time of the deluge only one ark of Noah, prefiguring the one Church, which ark, having been finished to a single cubit, had only one pilot and guide, i.e., Noah, and we read that, outside of this ark, all that subsisted on the earth was destroyed.

We venerate this Church as one, the Lord having said by the mouth of the prophet: ‘Deliver, O God, my soul from the sword and my only one from the hand of the dog.’ [Ps 21:20] He has prayed for his soul, that is for himself, heart and body; and this body, that is to say, the Church, He has called one because of the unity of the Spouse, of the faith, of the sacraments, and of the charity of the Church. This is the tunic of the Lord, the seamless tunic, which was not rent but which was cast by lot [Jn 19:23- 24]. Therefore, of the one and only Church there is one body and one head, not two heads like a monster; that is, Christ and the Vicar of Christ, Peter and the successor of Peter, since the Lord speaking to Peter Himself said: ‘Feed my sheep‘ [Jn 21:17], meaning, my sheep in general, not these, nor those in particular, whence we understand that He entrusted all to him [Peter]. Therefore, if the Greeks or others should say that they are not confided to Peter and to his successors, they must confess not being the sheep of Christ, since Our Lord says in John ‘there is one sheepfold and one shepherd.’

continued…

 

[Genesis315]

continued from above

Council of Florence

It firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the catholic church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the catholic church before the end of their lives; that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed his blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and the unity of the catholic church.

St. John Paul II, audience May 31, 1998 (All Salvation Comes Through Christ)

Since Christ brings about salvation through his Mystical Body, which is the Church, the way of salvation is connected essentially with the Church. The axiom extra Ecclesiam nulla salus—“outside the Church there is no salvation”—stated by St. Cyprian (Epist. 73, 21; PL 1123 AB), belongs to the Christian tradition and was included in the Fourth Lateran Council (DS 802), in the Bull Unam sanctam of Boniface VIII (DS 870) and in the Council of Florence (Decretum pro jacobitis, DS 1351).

The axiom means that for those who are not ignorant of the fact that the Church has been established as necessary by God through Jesus Christ, there is an obligation to enter the Church and remain in her in order to attain salvation (cf. Lumen gentium, n. 14).

 

[Justin_Mary]

From the OCA website:

I read that & the follow up article, “Confessing to a priest” which sounds more like spiritual direction…

After confession in the presence of a priest does he say anything about absolution? “Your sins are forgiven”?

Does the priest prescribe penance?

There are also a few errors in their representation of western idea of sin. We are not taught to look at a list of sins & if it’s on the list we confess it, if not we don’t.

& it’s done a bit differently, not out loud, but we do call to mind our sins & ask God for forgiveness at the beginning of every Mass.

 

[halogirl]

This is a lot more similar to the Protestant idea of sin that I am more used to. Sin is sin is sin ‘missing the mark’. I got ya.

 

[Vico]

This is a lot more similar to the Protestant idea of sin that I am more used to. Sin is sin is sin ‘missing the mark’. I got ya.

1 John 5:16-17:

“If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and He will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly.”