Orthodoxy & Mortal Sin

[Genesis315]

And what of the Chieti Document which states that the Pope of Rime never exercised authority over the Churches of the East?

As you mentioned, it’s a working document. But even then it said “canonical authority” and it didn’t say ever. The appeals to Rome ended in authoritative decisions–real acts of jurisdiction. “Canonical” would be a matter of positive law, whereas the Pope’s jurisdiction is part of the constituent nature of the Church. The Pope (except in extraordinary circumstances) as a matter of custom and based on the laws promulgated at Nicea (which Rome accepted as governing) did not take an active role in the East (the Patriarchs of Alexandria and Antioch bore most of the burden) unless his intervention was necessary to serve unity.

There has been some confusion in Catholic circles based on the word “ordinary” when referring to the Pope’s jurisdiction at the First Vatican Council. This term is used in a precise way to mean “not delegated” (ie the Pope does not receive his authority as a delegation from other bishops), it does not mean “usual” or “common” or “routine.” In general, each bishop should govern his own church and bishops should coordinate their efforts as necessary. The Pope’s job is to serve unity, not to take over the roles of the divinely instituted episcopate or the Patriarchates created by council and custom. The jurisdiction of the Pope is therefore traditionally used as an extraordinary means to serve unity. Unfortunately, events in the West gradually necessitated a more active role for the Pope. But this is not a necessity of the papacy. The First Vatican Council’s dogmatic treatment is in the abstract–the “can” rather than the “should”–since what would be appropriate to serve unity in every situation cannot be foreseen.

 

[Genesis315]

As for their being a schism, there’s a reason we have ecumenical discussions–if there was no schism, there would be no ecumenism, not Chieti document, etc., etc. and there would be mutual open communion. In fact, there is a real, explicitly stated schism among major Eastern Orthodox Churches right now which is a smaller divide than between the Catholic Church and the EO churches.

The Catholic Church alone is the one Church of Christ, not the separated EO Churches:

Vatican II decree on the Eastern Churches:

The Holy Catholic Church, which is the Mystical Body of Christ, is made up of the faithful who are organically united in the Holy Spirit by the same faith, the same sacraments and the same government and who, combining together into various groups which are held together by a hierarchy, form separate Churches or Rites.

Dominus Iesus

The interpretation of those who would derive from the formula subsistit in the thesis that the one Church of Christ could subsist also in non-Catholic Churches and ecclesial communities is therefore contrary to the authentic meaning of Lumen gentium. “The Council instead chose the word subsistit precisely to clarify that there exists only one ‘subsistence’ of the true Church, while outside her visible structure there only exist elementa Ecclesiae, which — being elements of that same Church — tend and lead toward the Catholic Church”

CDF RESPONSES TO SOME QUESTIONS REGARDING CERTAIN ASPECTS
OF THE DOCTRINE ON THE CHURCH

…the word “subsists” can only be attributed to the Catholic Church alone precisely because it refers to the mark of unity that we profess in the symbols of the faith (I believe… in the “one” Church); and this “one” Church subsists in the Catholic Church.

CDF Commentary on the Responses above:

Contrary to many unfounded interpretations, therefore, the change from “est” to “subsistit” does not signify that the Catholic Church has ceased to regard herself as the one true Church of Christ.

 

[Genesis315]

And that documents very much not old. For crying out loud, it’s 18th century.

The Catechism was 17th century (it was continually published into the 20th, the publication linked was from the 19th.) The Creed of Dositheus from the 17th century Council of Jerusalem says the same. The Exomologetarion shows authorties from various times going all the way back. These documents I cited were not regional, but were as universal as you can get in the EO world and were used consistently as authorities universally. The EOs unfortunately changed a lot in the last century and a half or so to move farther away from the West (related to the Neo-Palamite movement). It’s why more traditional EOs like the EO poster pacloc noted above still hold to this doctrine and reject the vague approach.

It’s a shame some Eastern Catholics follow the separated EOs wherever they go (we have enough Westerners wanting to do the same with Protestants), instead of maintaining the common doctrine in the East around the time of the Unia which were points of commonality between East and West.

It’s also a Neo-Palamite fable to assume the East has had no legitimate development since the spoon, as you put it. They developed right along with the West–only repudiating such things recently.

 

[Isaac14]

Then we have to consider The Russians…(not mentioned). They aren’t having any of this. And they went into schism with the rest of Orthodoxy . http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/eastern-orthodox-breach-russian-orthodox-church-splits-from-constantinople

Steve: You continue to make the statement that Russia “went into schism with the rest of Orthodoxy”. The article you cited here only makes reference to the Moscow Patriarchate’s relationship with the Ecumenical Patriarchate. It says nothing of the MP’s relationship with the churches of Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, Georgia, Serbia, Greece, Cyprus, Romania, Bulgaria, Poland, Czech/Slovakia, Albania, or America. The MP has not broken communion with any of the churches over the EP’s actions in Ukraine. Please correct your statement.

Further, you continue to refuse to understand the distinction of breaks in communion due to rebelling against authority (e.g. the various old-calenderist “genuine orthodox churches” or the old believer splits in Russia) and a break in communion meant to draw attention to and ultimately heal an action that goes against canonical norms (e.g. the situation between the MP & EP in Ukraine).

As evidence that the break between the MP & EP is ordered towards drawing attention to an issue to be addressed and resolved, I would point out that representatives of the MP attended the enthronement of Archbishop Elpidophorus as the head of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America (a part of the Ecumenical Patriarchate). If this were simply an “issue over authority” why would the MP attend the enthronement of an Archbishop from the EP? This is a demonstration of the respect each church still has for the other, and a recognition that the same faith is shared, despite the issues currently under discussion regarding Ukraine.

 

[ziapueblo]

And not only was a representative of the Russian Orthodox Church in attendance but representatives all the Canonical Orthodox Churches here in the U.S.

And as I’m sure you are aware, representatives of the MP and EP met not to long ago.

ZP

 

[Isaac14]

Indeed.

Facts like that ruin Steve’s narrative, though, and are best downplayed or ignored.

 

[ziapueblo]

And the Canonical Orthodox Bishops (representatives) were not all just sitting somewhere in the “stands” but in the Solea.

ZP

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Then we have to consider The Russians…(not mentioned). They aren’t having any of this. And they went into schism with the rest of Orthodoxy . http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/eastern-orthodox-breach-russian-orthodox-church-splits-from-constantinople

Steve: You continue to make the statement that Russia “went into schism with the rest of Orthodoxy”. The article you cited here only makes reference to the Moscow Patriarchate’s relationship with the Ecumenical Patriarchate. It says nothing of the MP’s relationship with the churches of Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, Georgia, Serbia, Greece, Cyprus, Romania, Bulgaria, Poland, Czech/Slovakia, Albania, or America. The MP has not broken communion with any of the churches over the EP’s actions in Ukraine. Please correct your statement.

AND

the Antioch Patriarchate and Orthodox churches in Georgia and Bulgaria and Russia boycotted the council that was supposed to be the Pan Orthodox council…true?

Don’t the Russians alone, make up 60-70% of Orthodoxy?

Isaac14:

Further, you continue to refuse to understand the distinction of breaks in communion due to rebelling against authority (e.g. the various old-calenderist “genuine orthodox churches” or the old believer splits in Russia) and a break in communion meant to draw attention to and ultimately heal an action that goes against canonical norms (e.g. the situation between the MP & EP in Ukraine).

Look, Isaac,

If schism to the Catholic Church is those who don’t accept the authority of the papacy (short explanation), what is schism to the Orthodox?

Your EP who is 1st among equals to the Orthodox (true ?), what’s that say about your understanding of 1st among equals when most of Orthodox boycotts what is to be a meeting that hasn’t happened in 1000 yrs?

As Fr Ambrose ROCOR, who used to post here, said this in 06 about that term.

"There is no such thing as a first among equals; this is a nonsensical term. If someone is first, the others are not equal; if all are equal, then none is first. "

I couldn’t say it better.

 

[Isaac14]

the Antioch Patriarchate and Orthodox churches in Georgia and Bulgaria and Russia boycotted the council that was supposed to be the Pan Orthodox council…true?

Boycotting a council has nothing to do with breaking communion. You have not retracted your incorrect statement that Russia has broken communion with all other Orthodox churches. Please correct your mistake.

If schism to the Catholic Church is those who don’t accept the authority of the papacy (short explanation), what is schism to the Orthodox?

I already gave you the example of the schisms of the old calendrists and old believers, rebelling from the authority of the canonical church. If the break between the MP & EP remains unaddressed, it could well turn into schism. As I and Ziapueblo have noted, representatives from both sides (and indeed the other churches not directly involved in Ukraine) are all meeting in efforts to resolve this break. You choose to view the Orthodox through a Latin lens and misunderstand how we operate.

Your EP who is 1st among equals to the Orthodox (true ?)

Yes, true. Perhaps you can read the Statute of the Orthodox Church in America which describes how the primate exercises their “primacy of honor” which includes duties and responsibilities beyond that of the diocesan bishop. This is but one example of how primacy of honor, or being first among equals, is exercised in way that is non-dictatorial.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

the Antioch Patriarchate and Orthodox churches in Georgia and Bulgaria and Russia boycotted the council that was supposed to be the Pan Orthodox council…true?

Boycotting a council has nothing to do with breaking communion. You have not retracted your incorrect statement that Russia has broken communion with all other Orthodox churches. Please correct your mistake.

Isaac,

What does this mean to you? Russian Orthodox Church breaks "Eucharistic communion" with Patriarcate of Constantinople - Vatican News

If schism to the Catholic Church is those who don’t accept the authority of the papacy (short explanation), what is schism to the Orthodox?

Isaac14:

I already gave you the example of the schisms of the old calendrists and old believers, rebelling from the authority of the canonical church. If the break between the MP & EP remains unaddressed, it could well turn into schism. As I and Ziapueblo have noted, representatives from both sides (and indeed the other churches not directly involved in Ukraine) are all meeting in efforts to resolve this break. You choose to view the Orthodox through a Latin lens and misunderstand how we operate.

I go back to my first entry on this post.

What does THAT mean to you?

Your EP who is 1st among equals to the Orthodox (true ?)

Isaac14:

Yes, true. Perhaps you can read the Statute of the Orthodox Church in America which describes how the primate exercises their “primacy of honor” which includes duties and responsibilities beyond that of the diocesan bishop. This is but one example of how primacy of honor, or being first among equals, is exercised in way that is non-dictatorial.

What you are saying, 1st among equals is a title

 

[Isaac14]

What does this mean to you? https://www.vaticannews.va/en/world/news/2018-10/russian-orthodox-break-communion-with-ecumenical-patriarch.html

It means to me that you didn’t read my statement above that while the MP has broken communion with the EP regarding Ukraine, they have not broken communion with the churches of Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, Georgia, Serbia, Bulgaria, Romania, Greece, Cyprus, Albania, Poland, Czech-lands & Slovakia, or America.

I go back to my first entry on this post.

What does THAT mean to you?

it seems to mean you think I am going to hell.

What you are saying, 1st among equals is a title

We can talk about this if you care to read the references I shared from the OCA.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

What does this mean to you? https://www.vaticannews.va/en/world/news/2018-10/russian-orthodox-break-communion-with-ecumenical-patriarch.html

It means to me that you didn’t read my statement above that while the MP has broken communion with the EP regarding Ukraine, they have not broken communion with the churches of Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, Georgia, Serbia, Bulgaria, Romania, Greece, Cyprus, Albania, Poland, Czech-lands & Slovakia, or America.

I go back to my first entry on this post.

What does THAT mean to you?

it seems to mean you think I am going to hell.

What you are saying, 1st among equals is a title

We can talk about this if you care to read the references I shared from the OCA.

What about from the POV of the ROC? Statement by the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church concerning the encroachment of the Patriarchate of Constantinople on the canonical territory of the Russian Church

 

[Isaac14]

What about from the POV of the ROC? https://mospat.ru/en/2018/10/15/news165263/

What about it? A very quick read is that this lays out why the MP broke communion with the EP. It requests other churches review their case and participate in finding a resolution.

You have persisted in stating the MP has broken communion with all other Orthodox Churches. None of your sources have backed up your statement. Again, please retract your false statement.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

What about from the POV of the ROC? https://mospat.ru/en/2018/10/15/news165263/

What about it? A very quick read is that this lays out why the MP broke communion with the EP. It requests other churches review their case and participate in finding a resolution

You have persisted in stating the MP has broken communion with all other Orthodox Churches. None of your sources have backed up your statement. Again, please retract your false statement.

THAT + what communion means.

If Russia is no longer in communion with the EP, then they in extension, reading that doc from the ROC, are no longer in communion with those churches that are also in communion with the EP…correct ?

 

[Isaac14]

Not at all correct.

Representatives of the Orthodox Church in America have recently communed with both the Moscow Patriarchate and Ecumenical Patriarchates in the last month or so.

See here:
https://oca.org/news/headline-news/...triarchate-at-annual-pilgrimage-to-cappadocia
and here: https://oca.org/news/headline-news/oca-represented-at-patronal-feast-of-metropolitan-onufry-of-kyiv

So, no, communion is not broken between Moscow and the other churches that also remain in communion with the EP.

 

[steve-b]

Not at all correct.

Representatives of the Orthodox Church in America have recently communed with both the Moscow Patriarchate and Ecumenical Patriarchates in the last month or so.

See here:
https://oca.org/news/headline-news/...triarchate-at-annual-pilgrimage-to-cappadocia
and here: https://oca.org/news/headline-news/oca-represented-at-patronal-feast-of-metropolitan-onufry-of-kyiv

So, no, communion is not broken between Moscow and the other churches that also remain in communion with the EP.

isn’t the DNA of the OCA, Russian in origin?

 

[Isaac14]

isn’t the DNA of the OCA, Russian in origin?

The OCA has its roots in the Russian mission in North America. What is the relevance of that? The OCA is in full communion with both the EP & MP as evidenced by the two news stories you don’t appear to have read.

 

[ziapueblo]

isn’t the DNA of the OCA, Russian in origin?

As @Isaac14 said, the OCA started as a mission for the Russian Orthodox Church here in America.

A segment from The Holy Synod of Bishops Archpastoral Letter on Ukraine (OCA):

• That communion between clergy and faithful of all canonical Orthodox jurisdictions in North America be maintained and that any specific questions concerning the concelebration of clergy be directed to the local diocesan bishop;

ZP

 

[ReaderT]

THAT is why you don’t want to think going to Orthodoxy is OK. The Church Jesus established on Peter and those in perfect union with Peter, is the Catholic Church. It’s been that name since the 1st century

I wonder what the state of St. Alexis Toth’s soul is, then: he was a Catholic priest that converted to Orthodoxy and is now a canonized Orthodox Saint. Methinks if anyone knew about mortal sin, it would be a Catholic priest - does that mean you believe he’s in hell but we believe he’s in heaven?

 

[ReaderT]

Would someone be able to answer my question (below) from the Catholic theological perspective?

If a Catholic truly believes Orthodoxy is more correct (and therefore doesn’t think what they’re doing is wrong), would they be in mortal sin? [since a requirement of mortal sin is true knowledge]

If Russia is no longer in communion with the EP, then they in extension, reading that doc from the ROC, are no longer in communion with those churches that are also in communion with the EP…correct ?

Nope, they’re in communion with the others

what is schism to the Orthodox?

Leaving Orthodoxy for non-Orthodox ideas