Orthodoxy on divorce and annulments

[Mickey]

Got that now, Mickey? Now don’t say you haven’t seen it again.

Your posts make no point Ron. Got that? You can post them over and over again and you will still not be able to defend the man-made legalism of annulments. It is aborhent to me that a sacrament can be deemed retroactively non-existent due to trivial reasons.

Orthodox CANON LAW permits second and even third marriages.

Yes. You still make no point. Catholic annulments allow an infinite number of marriages–after the sacrament has been rescinded of course.

If you are indeed Orthodox, something you seem reluctant to admit here for some reason, then I suggest you discuss this with your bishop and let him correct you on Orthodox doctrine.

I am happy to admit I am Orthodox. Read my profile. I’ve discussed this within the Holy Orthodox Church. When you better understand Holy Orthodoxy, perhaps we can discuss this more aptly. Frankly, your misunderstanding and arrogance on the subject is quite unfortunate.

Still, my initial point remains, this is a man-made erroneous theological development (economia) not supportable by Scripture or received doctrine.

Repentance, mercy, love, and forgiveness is given to us as a grace from God–you could not be more wrong.

However, the annulment process is a man-made development that has injured many.

Got that Ron? Good.

 

[josephdaniel29]

The only reason for granting an annulment of a Catholic marriage is that it was defective and illegitimate for some reason, from the start. No, they do not grant annulments for “irreconcilable differences”. But the Orthodox do.

Ron

Guys I know from personal experience that anyone can receive an annulment. When I was looking at converting to the Catholic Church my wife had to begin the process to have her first marriage annulled. The priest we were working with, who was in his seventies, told us that he had never…and I repeat never failed to get a annulment. As far as I can see the sacrament of matrimony doesn’t exist in the Catholic Church as literally any marriage could be declared null and void, and as almost every marriage has some condition that could at a later date be declared an impediment then according to Catholic theology none of those “marriages” are in reality valid.

The bottom line is both Churches make an exception for human weakness. The Orthodox Church recognizes reality and calls the parties to repentance and the Catholic Church uses legalistic maneuvering to pretend the problem never existed in the first place.

 

[Mickey]

Apparently the Orthodox Church has the same time machine, because they do grant annulments of bigamous marriages and recognize the following as illegitimate marriages:

And of course we are not speaking of blatant illegalities such as incest, bigamy, etc…

But I understand how you need to change the subject----the man-made development of annulment is difficult to defend.

 

[josephdaniel29]

Oh and BTW what were the grounds we were to request the annulment on? That my wife didn’t truly understand the commitment she was making when she entered the marriage and therefore it couldn’t be binding.

 

[Mickey]

According to Clement, then, the Orthodox officially recognize adultery!

The Orthodox show mercy and forgiveness for ALL sins–and ALL sinners if they repent with a sincere heart.

 

[Mickey]

Guys I know from personal experience that anyone can receive an annulment. When I was looking at converting to the Catholic Church my wife had to begin the process to have her first marriage annulled. The priest we were working with, who was in his seventies, told us that he had never…and I repeat never failed to get a annulment. As far as I can see the sacrament of matrimony doesn’t exist in the Catholic Church as literally any marriage could be declared null and void, and as almost every marriage has some condition that could at a later date be declared an impediment then according to Catholic theology none of those “marriages” are in reality valid.

The bottom line is both Churches make an exception for human weakness. The Orthodox Church recognizes reality and calls the parties to repentance and the Catholic Church uses legalistic maneuvering to pretend the problem never existed in the first place.

Thank you Joseph. You are wise. There are some here that are in denial. But I respect that they must attempt to defend their Church.

 

[Mickey]

Oh and BTW what were the grounds we were to request the annulment on? That my wife didn’t truly understand the commitment she was making when she entered the marriage and therefore it couldn’t be binding.

I have seen annulments granted for even more trivial reasons than that!

 

[Mickey]

I see you conveniently chose to ignore Christ’s words on the subject that I posted for you…hmm…very telling.

Not telling at all my brother. I choose to look at **all **of Christ’s words.

And, I am quite aware of the verses…problem with your ideas is that you are forgetting that repentance requires a firm purpose of ammendment to try not doing the sin again…if you remarry after a divorce then you are commiting audultery which last time I checked was still a sin. If you continue in that audultery you have no intent of stopping the sin so no true repentance has happened.

If the tragedy of divorce happens, and the person repents sincerely, asks forgiveness, and then falls in love with a good Christian woman–and they have children and raise them as good Christians who love the Lord—do you think they would be condemned to hell because they fell in love and re-married? I know it is difficult to break out of your legalistic mind-set–but have a little common sense—and mercy.

As for the rest of your misconceptions, you obviously care not to learn the true teaching of the Church so I am done with this thread.

I know the teachings of Roman Catholicism–I was one for a very long time.

Peace be unto you.

 

[roncriss]

Guys I know from personal experience that anyone can receive an annulment. When I was looking at converting to the Catholic Church my wife had to begin the process to have her first marriage annulled. The priest we were working with, who was in his seventies, told us that he had never…and I repeat never failed to get a annulment. As far as I can see the sacrament of matrimony doesn’t exist in the Catholic Church as literally any marriage could be declared null and void, and as almost every marriage has some condition that could at a later date be declared an impediment then according to Catholic theology none of those “marriages” are in reality valid.

The bottom line is both Churches make an exception for human weakness. The Orthodox Church recognizes reality and calls the parties to repentance and the Catholic Church uses legalistic maneuvering to pretend the problem never existed in the first place.

Joseph,

I readily admit that the process is sometimes abused. But the failure to follow Catholic doctrine by “progressive” priests is no reflection on the doctrine itself. We are discussing here the relative merits of Catholic vs Orthodox doctrine, especially the development of post-Schism Orthodox doctrine which permits divorce and re-marriage which would be considered adulterous according to Scripture.

The “Catholic Church” does not use legalisitic maneuvering. Certain individuals do. I won’t attempt to defend those who go against Catholic doctrine, just the doctrine itself. The real bottom line is that Catholic doctrine accords with Scripture and tradition.

Ron

 

[roncriss]

I have seen annulments granted for even more trivial reasons than that!

Mickey,

No, you haven’t. In fact you haven’t “seen” any annulments granted.

Ron

 

[roncriss]

The Orthodox show mercy, love, and forgiveness for ALL sins.

Only God can grant forgiveness and mercy. But He will not accept adultery as marriage, even if the Orthodox do. Nice try to confuse the issue though. It probably would have worked on some people.

Ron

 

[Mickey]

Joseph,

I readily admit that the process is sometimes abused. But the failure to follow Catholic doctrine by “progressive” priests is no reflection on the doctrine itself. We are discussing here the relative merits of Catholic vs Orthodox doctrine, especially the development of post-Schism Orthodox doctrine which permits divorce and re-marriage which would be considered adulterous according to Scripture.

The “Catholic Church” does not use legalisitic maneuvering. Certain individuals do. I won’t attempt to defend those who go against Catholic doctrine, just the doctrine itself. The real bottom line is that Catholic doctrine accords with Scripture and tradition.

Ron

There ya go Ron. Nice side step! :clapping:

 

[Mickey]

No, you haven’t. In fact you haven’t “seen” any annulments granted.

I re-word it since you are gettin testy. I have known people who have had annulments granted for even less trivial reasons. Is that better Ron?

 

[roncriss]

Oh and BTW what were the grounds we were to request the annulment on? That my wife didn’t truly understand the commitment she was making when she entered the marriage and therefore it couldn’t be binding.

Joseph,

So our Lord and St Paul were wrong and should have granted an exception for bad judgement? So you married a woman who was already married? Maybe you have a personal reason for ignoring Scripture?

Ron

 

[Mickey]

Only God can grant forgiveness and mercy.

God grants His mercy and forgiveness through the Church.

 

[Mickey]

But He will not accept adultery as marriage, even if the Orthodox do.

I believe the nullification of the sacrament of Holy Matrimony is dangerous practice.

 

[roncriss]

Your posts make no point Ron. Got that? You can post them over and over again and you will still not be able to defend the man-made legalism of annulments. It is aborhent to me that a sacrament can be deemed retroactively non-existent due to trivial reasons.
Yes. You still make no point. Catholic annulments allow an infinite number of marriages–after the sacrament has been rescinded of course.
I am happy to admit I am Orthodox. Read my profile. I’ve discussed this within the Holy Orthodox Church. When you better understand Holy Orthodoxy, perhaps we can discuss this more aptly. Frankly, your misunderstanding and arrogance on the subject is quite unfortunate.
Repentance, mercy, love, and forgiveness is given to us as a grace from God–you could not be more wrong.

However, the annulment process is a man-made development that has injured many.

Got that Ron? Good.

Mickey,

As expected you have ignored the substance of my quotes and continue to misrepresent Catholic doctrine. Clealry you won’t be reasoned with. Our discussion is over. Other members of this forum are free to read the previous posts and come to their own conclusions. Hopefully they will be more objective and consider the words of our Lord, St Paul and the Fathers with respect and obedience.

Ron

 

[Mickey]

Joseph,

So our Lord and St Paul were wrong and should have granted an exception for bad judgement? So you married a woman who was already married? Maybe you have a personal reason for ignoring Scripture?

Careful with that log.

 

[josephdaniel29]

Joseph,

I readily admit that the process is sometimes abused. But the failure to follow Catholic doctrine by “progressive” priests is no reflection on the doctrine itself. We are discussing here the relative merits of Catholic vs Orthodox doctrine, especially the development of post-Schism Orthodox doctrine which permits divorce and re-marriage which would be considered adulterous according to Scripture.

The “Catholic Church” does not use legalisitic maneuvering. Certain individuals do. I won’t attempt to defend those who go against Catholic doctrine, just the doctrine itself. The real bottom line is that Catholic doctrine accords with Scripture and tradition.

Ron

I really don’t want this to be a confrontational discussion but I’ve never seen annulment mentioned in Scripture. There are legitimate grounds for annulment and there are legitimate grounds for divorce as testified to by the words of Christ Himself. The Savior makes an exception and out of mercy both Churches do as well, it’s just different means to the same end.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Guys I know from personal experience that anyone can receive an annulment. When I was looking at converting to the Catholic Church my wife had to begin the process to have her first marriage annulled. The priest we were working with, who was in his seventies, told us that he had never…and I repeat never failed to get a annulment. As far as I can see the sacrament of matrimony doesn’t exist in the Catholic Church as literally any marriage could be declared null and void, and as almost every marriage has some condition that could at a later date be declared an impediment then according to Catholic theology none of those “marriages” are in reality valid.

“Personal experience” doesnt cut it here, you dont know the actual details behind any of those annulments so you cant go around saying it is guaranteed or “any marriage” can get annulled. Further if someone in the Catholic Church is abusing his authority by handing out annulments he will have to answer to God because he is in fact sinning gravely.

The bottom line is both Churches make an exception for human weakness. The Orthodox Church recognizes reality and calls the parties to repentance and the Catholic Church uses legalistic maneuvering to pretend the problem never existed in the first place.

Catholics are NOT making an exception for human weakness, what is gravely sinful is always gravely sinful. An annulment is not a guarantee, if the Church determines the marriage was valid then that couple is bound for life, there are no “exceptions” here.

Again, you cant compare your own “personal experience” with the fact the Orthodox Church is openly allowing divorce and remarriage (a grave sin explicitly condemned by Jesus).