Orthodoxy on divorce and annulments

[Mickey]

From THE MORNING JOURNAL, Lorain, OH3/29/92. "U.S.**** LEADS IN ANNULMENTS.** **
Despite her wealth and influence, Princess Caroline of Monaco has waited nearly a decade to get one. But Lee Iacocca…got one easily in February.
"For centuries, annulments have been associated with the rich and royal, eager to switch spouses. In many foreign countries, it remains that way.
"The 55.6 million U.S. Catholics represent only 6 per cent of the 906 million members of the church worldwide. But the 61,416 annulments that were granted were a whopping 79 percent of the 77,319 given out in 1989, the most recent year reported by the church.
"`It’s a sham. It makes me angry,’ said Wayne County, Mich., Circuit Judge Michael Callahan, who as a Catholic priest worked on the tribunal in the late 1970s.
“Callahan said he considers annulments a hypocritical way for church leaders to wink at divorce while claiming to defend Pope John Paul II’s teaching that a properly conducted marriage sacrament should last forever.”

 

[Mickey]

From CURRENT TRENDS & THOUGHTS, 10/93.
“Roman Catholic marriage annulments have reached an all-time high, says TIME. Since 1968, when 338 annulments were granted in the U.S., the annual figure has grown to exceed 41,000. To grant an annulment, the church establishes that a marriage never existed. In the 1970s the Vatican broadened the valid reasons for annulment to include over-dependency and trouble handling adult responsibilities.”

 

[Mickey]

It is very sad to me that the RCC claims it can step back into time and undo a marriage–leaving the children with much confusion.

 

[roncriss]

I found this statement on a catholic parish website.

Will my children be illegitimate if my marriage is annulled?

Answer: NO! This is a grave misconception. The marital status of the parents does not affect the status of the children. All children are created in God’s image and have equal status in the church. Neither civil law nor church law considers the children of an annulled marriage illegitimate. Nor does the annulment imply that the children were not the fruit of a genuine human love. Annulment is simply a decision on the circumstances surrounding a marriage that could prevent that marriage from being a sacramental marriage.

It looks like catholics want to have their cake and eat it too. No marraige ever existed but the children aren’t illegitimate. Do any catholics want to defend this or would you like to disown this statement.

Was Christ illegitimate? Mary was as yet unmarried. You are thinking in worldly categories.

Ron

 

[roncriss]

This is quite extraordinary. To see Catholics condemning what was a practice of their Church for centuries In fact it was such a non issue in the Catholic Church that when Cardinal Humbert placed the Papal Bull of Excommunication upon the altar of Hagia Sophia in 1054, it did not even rate a mention among the long list of charges directed at Patriarch Michael and all who followed him.

The Orthodox Church can trace the Churches recognition of the failure of sacramental marriages to long before the schism. She continues to uphold the same tradition, permitting remarriage after divorce at the discretion of the bishop (it is not always permitted). Since she continues to uphold the practice of the undivided Church, it is most odd for modern Catholics to accuse us of having changed and left the teaching of the Church.

John

Joseph,

Apparently Jesus’ commandment against divorce and that of St Paul doesn’t phase you. You want to offer two or three opportunities to ignore His commandment. I don’t believe this practice of Orthodox recognition pre-dates the schism, but even if it did that would not justify it just because our fathers did it. I don’t think I can provide any more arguments than I have. For me Scripture alone would be enough. As I see it the Catholic practice is Scriptural while the Orthodox is not. Clearly you Orthodox cannot bring yourselves to admit this, and the evidence of St. Clement and the clear implications of Scripture you ignore. So our conversation on this subject is over. We aired the facts. What you do with them, accept or attempt to explain away, is your responsibility now.

Ron

 

[Mickey]

Was Christ illegitimate?

How many other virgin births are you aware of?

 

[Mickey]

So our conversation on this subject is over. We aired the facts. What you do with them, accept or attempt to explain away, is your responsibility now.

Again, you have proved nothing except that Rome can magically and legalistically go back and declare the sacrament of Holy Matrimony to be null and void–oftentimes for trivial reasons–even if it is a 20 year marriage with children!

The Orthodox Church counsels with love. If all efforts fail, and fallen human nature results in a separation, the Orthodox Church may grant an Ecclesiatical divorce. Then the parties involved show repentance and the Holy Church administers the medicine of love, compassion, mercy, and forgiveness.

This is the Christian way.

Amen.

 

[roncriss]

Ronald,

The annulment process is one of many reasons I enetered into communion with the one, holy , catholic and apostolic Church–the Holy Orthodox Church. I have never heard of an annulment being refused for any reason (though I suppose you could find some cases). All priests I have ever spoken to have reiterated Joseph’s experiences explaining that no annulment is refused. An annulment is a legalistic process by which a couple can justify the nullity of the marriage under the guise of making the sacrament appear as if it had never happened---------ludicrous! In the long run, I much more appreciate the Orthodox process of granting a canonical divorce after serious spiritual counseling. If counseling fails, the Church recognizes our human weakness with love, mercy, and forgiveness. This is the Christian way. I am happy that you feel at home in the Roman Catholic Church and are able to be obedient to Her teachings. I am at great peace within Holy Orthodoxy. And yes, as you say, I have thge facts, and I am responsible for the knowledge. And so I will defend Holy Orthodoxy whenever those, such as yourself attack Her with false accusations—it is my responsibility to defend Christ’s Church.

It is good that you have only had one wife—me too. But do not attempt to judge others when your sins are countless.
We all have the log.

The most wretched of sinners,
Mickey

Mickey,

Why you left the true Church is your business and responsibility. But it explains why you feel such a need to justify Orthodox errors such as this one. The problem with your logic here is not that I have judged anything. The problem is that Christ and St Paul have commanded and the Orthodox ignore the commandments.

For your information I have met several people who left the Church, some joining the Orthodox Church because of the convenience, or have hard feelings for the Church while remaining in it, because they were not granted an annulment. So much for basing your understanding on hearsay. No, not all who request them receive annulments. Whether some tribunals are lax is irrelvant anyway. What matters is doctrine and whether it is trueor not. You complain about Catholics getting annulments while accepting the Orthodox practice which, contrary to Christ’s mandate, recognizes divorce and re-marriage:

“32 But I say this to you, everyone who divorces his wife, except for the case of an illicit marriage, makes her an adulteress; and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.”

The plain and simple meaning of these words is obvious as are Paul’s:

10 To the married I give this ruling, and this is not mine but the Lord’s: a wife must not be separated from her husband-
11 or if she has already left him, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband-and a husband must not divorce his wife.

I know you understand the clear implications of these words, deny them as you might. I can’t make it any clearer than they can. The Lord does not even allow one divorce, let alone two. I judge no one. Christ’s words are the judge in this case. I only submit to them.

I made the leap in the other direction, to the Catholic Church. Not because of this, but for much greater reasons, primarily the Orthodox tendency to ethnic nationalism, control of the church by the nations they reside in (the Russian Church was flooded with KGB priests and bishops who were little more than tools of the commies, for example) and because I discovered that the Fathers recognized the Pope as necessary head of the Church.

“For the extremities of the earth, and all in every part of it who purely and rightly confess the Lord, look directly towards the most holy Roman Church and its confession and faith, as it were a sun of unfailing light, awaiting from it the bright radiance of our fathers, according to what the six inspired and holy Councils have purely and piously decreed, declaring most expressly the symbol of faith. For from the coming down of the Incarnate Word among us, all the churches in every part of the world have possessed that greatest church alone as their base and foundation, seeing that, according to the promise of Christ Our Savior, the gates of hell do never prevail against it, that it possesses the Keys of right confession and faith in Him, that it opens the true and only religion to such as approach with piety, and shuts up and locks every heretical mouth that speaks injustice against the Most High”
(Maximus the Confessor,Opuscula)

Ron

 

[roncriss]

I have never known the NAB to render anything more accurately!

Thanks for your admission.

Ron

 

[roncriss]

Clement, who most certainly understood what the Greek word “porneia” meant, considering it was his native tongue, said it meant bigamy. In other words an unlawful marriage while the spouse was still alive. The NAB translates the verse this way:

“But I say to you, whoever divorces his wife (unless the marriage is unlawful) causes her to commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.”

The NJB has:

But I say this to you, everyone who divorces his wife, except for the case of an illicit marriage, makes her an adulteress; and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

The Orthodox apparently prefer the Protestant (mis) translation as it effectively allows virtually any divorce and re-marriage. It is difficult to understand why, if it is OK two times to divorce and re-marry after unfaithfulness, that it would not be OK an infinite number of times. (I see no limit of three specificed by Jesus or Paul. I know of some Baptist communities where 5 marriages is the norm) The point is that if Jesus is stating that any “unfaithfulness” or sex outside of marriage allows divorce then virtually all divorces would be approved and Jesus’ words would be rendered meaningless. He would, in effect, be more liberal than the Romans and the Jews of the time.

Ron

 

[roncriss]

According to your CHURCH’s rules (in Chicago, at least) you cannot get that annullment by your CHURCH until you get your civl divorce.

If anyone is confused, it is your archdiocese here.

A civil divorce is only a legal thing. We are discussing the sacrament of Christian marriage which a civil court has no control over. Keep the two separated in your mind. Or do you think the secular government has control over the church?

Ron

 

[VARC]

Was Christ illegitimate? Mary was as yet unmarried. You are thinking in worldly categories.

Ron

Nice dodge. I’m thinking in worldy categories because illegitimacy is a worldly issue. Christ was not the product of fornication. The incarnation was a miracle. According to you, couples whose marriages have been annulled were never married. Therefore, whether they knew it or not,they were commiting fornication. Those children being the product of fornication are bastard children.

I’m really kind of surprised that you guys are resisting the unavoidable conclusion of your annulments. Do you feel guilty for saying that those children are bastards?

 

[roncriss]

What exactly makes a sacramental marriage? After all, in the Catholic Church it is the man and woman who are the ministers of the sacrament, the priest or deacon only being a witness, so if the Catholic Church recognises baptisms performed outside the Church (even by a non believer if their intent is to perform a Christian baptism) why would it not recognise as sacramental, marriages performed outside the Church?

You also have not responded to the fact of the allowance of remarriage after divorce in the undivided Church. The practice was never condemned then, it didn’t even rate a mention on the Bull of Excommunication in 1054, so why is it an issue today? You condemn the traditional practice of your own Church.

John

Point me to a binding quote, maybe a papal bull or the decree of an ecumenical council that suggests divorce was approved in the un-divided Church. Quote please. Simony was practiced in the un-divided Church, but that doesn’t make it right.

Ron

 

[roncriss]

So you have to only wait till your spouse dies to legimize your decades long affair.] .

No. It would have no effect on their previous adultery. They would still need to repent of that. But it would not be adulterous marriage because the first spouse is no longer alive.

You side steppped the issue. I said they stopped. Their children, according to you, are still bastards. .

I don’t understand why you Orthodox are so intent on calling kids names because of the actions of their parents. A child is a child. No need to lable them because of their parents’ sins.

 

[roncriss]

What Ron fails to understand is that the bishops have the power of binding and loosing, not the power of pretending something wasn’t real in the first place.

John

Then why limit it to three? You are rendering Christ’s commandments meaningless.

Ron

 

[VARC]

I don’t understand why you Orthodox are so intent on calling kids names because of the actions of their parents. A child is a child. No need to lable them because of their parents’ sins.

The Orthodox are intent on making you face the realty of what you are saying. Catholics want to ignore the truth in this regard because the truth makes you feel uncomfortable. Good, you should be uncomfortable, because what you are saying is cruel.

 

[VARC]

Then why limit it to three? You are rendering Christ’s commandments meaningless.

Ron

Yeah why stop at 3? If the orthodox granted annulments, you could have 10 marriages and just go back and find a reason to invalidate 9 of them. All without a shread of repentance. Can anyone say “Corban”

 

[melkite_orthodo]

Guys I know from personal experience that anyone can receive an annulment. When I was looking at converting to the Catholic Church my wife had to begin the process to have her first marriage annulled. The priest we were working with, who was in his seventies, told us that he had never…and I repeat never failed to get a annulment. As far as I can see the sacrament of matrimony doesn’t exist in the Catholic Church as literally any marriage could be declared null and void, and as almost every marriage has some condition that could at a later date be declared an impediment then according to Catholic theology none of those “marriages” are in reality valid.

The bottom line is both Churches make an exception for human weakness. The Orthodox Church recognizes reality and calls the parties to repentance and the Catholic Church uses legalistic maneuvering to pretend the problem never existed in the first place.

When we were Catholic, and this was several years ago, I went through a period of depression and was suicidal. Our Catholic priest guaranteed that my wife could get an annulment since obviously my being depressed was a sign that I couldn’t enter into sacramental marriage. And the truth is that he is right. And if an annulment is simply a recognition that a marriage is not a marriage, then in the eyes of Rome, my marriage probably isn’t a real marriage.

I would like to note as well that in Orthodoxy, a person who is declared guilty in an ecclesiastical divorce cannot remarry. So if I were to go out and commit adultery, I couldn’t get a “no fault” divorce from the orthodox church. If my wife got an ecclesiastical divorce, she would be allowed to remarry and I would not. According to Roman Catholic practice, we would be able to get an annulment on the grounds that perhaps I never intended to be faithful (this has happened, especially with the Kennedys), then I the adulerer would be free to marry my mistress in the Catholic Church. I could also then cheat on her, claim I was too immature to be married, and get another annulment.

Also, if the annulment rate is high (and it is) what does that say about Catholic marriages? A substantially high portion of Catholic couples are not really married and it is only a matter of time before the Churches decides such. What good are all of the marriage blessings and prayers in Church?

 

[roncriss]

Btw, the idea of porneia having nothing to do with adultery, I posted the lexical universe of this word.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=3151339&highlight=harlotry#post3151339

Btw, the idea of porneia having nothing to do with adultery, I posted the lexical universe of this word.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=3151339&highlight=harlotry#post3151339

You probably got that from a Protestant or modern Greek source, which retroactively interpreted the meaning based on the later confusion. All you need to do in order to discover the meaning of the word is listen to a Greek speaker of the earlier times:

“Now that the Scripture counsels marriage, and allows no release
from the union, is expressly contained in the law, ‘Thou shalt not
put away thy wife, except for the cause of porneia;’ and it
regards as porneia, the marriage of those separated while the
other is alive…‘He that taketh a woman that has been put away,’ it is said, ‘committeth adultery; and if one puts away his wife, he makes her an adulteress,’ that is, compels her to commit adultery. And not only is he who puts her away guilty of this, but he who takes her, by giving to the woman the opportunity of sinning; for did he not take her, she would return to her husband.”
Clement of Alexandria,Stromata,2:24(A.D. 202),in ANF,II:379

Can you find me an earlier source who defines porneia as adultery? (Note: there is another Greek word for adultery which Jesus uses in the same passage. Clearly He would not suggest that adultery justifies divorce which causes adulery!) On what grounds do you dismiss the interpretation of Clement while accepting the definition of a later dictionary?

Ron

 

[Mickey]

Why you left the true Church is your business and responsibility.

Amen.

But it explains why you feel such a need to justify Orthodox errors such as this one.

I could list many reasons why I am Orthodox and none of them are to justify “errors”.

the Orthodox ignore the commandments…

Disagree.

For your information I have met several people who left the Church, some joining the Orthodox Church because of the convenience, or have hard feelings for the Church while remaining in it, because they were not granted an annulment.

Yes. Many have been injured by the process.

You complain about Catholics getting annulments while accepting the Orthodox practice which, contrary to Christ’s mandate, recognizes divorce and re-marriage

Counsel, love, mercy, compassion, and forgiveness are not contrary to Christ’s teaching.

I know you understand the clear implications of these words, deny them as you might.

I deny nothing in Scripture. Counsel, love, mercy, compassion, and forgiveness is a clear message throughout Sacred Scripture. However, legalism and pharisaicism is not condoned.

I judge no one. Christ’s words are the judge in this case.

Christ is all merciful.

I made the leap in the other direction, to the Catholic Church. Not because of this, but for much greater reasons, primarily the Orthodox tendency to ethnic nationalism, control of the church by the nations they reside in (the Russian Church was flooded with KGB priests and bishops who were little more than tools of the commies, for example) and because I discovered that the Fathers recognized the Pope as necessary head of the Church.

There are about three different threads here. Perhaps you would like to start one instead of condemning the Holy Orthodox Church in this particular thread.

**O God and Lord of the Powers, and Maker of all creation, Who, because of Thy clemency and incomparable mercy, didst send Thine Only-Begotten Son and our Lord Jesus Christ for the salvation of mankind, and with His venerable Cross didst tear asunder the record of our sins, and thereby didst conquer the rulers and powers of darkness; receive from us sinful people, O merciful Master, these prayers of gratitude and supplication, and deliver us from every destructive and gloomy transgression, and from all visible and invisible enemies who seek to injure us. Nail down our flesh with fear of Thee, and let not our hearts be inclined to words or thoughts of evil, but pierce our souls with Thy love, that ever contemplating Thee, being enlightened by Thee, and discerning Thee, the unapproachable and everlasting Light, we may unceasingly render confession and gratitude to Thee: The eternal Father, with Thine Only-Begotten Son, and with Thine All-Holy, Gracious, and Life-Giving Spirit, now and ever, and unto ages of ages. Amen. **
St Basil the Great