Orthodoxy on divorce and annulments

[Mickey]

Nothing is inevitable.

Are you sinless? Do you control the passions perfectly?

The Orthodox Church recogonizes Ecclesiatical divorce as a terrible tragedy but approves of it.

Wrong. They recognize fallen human nature and have compassion and mercy on God’s people.

The Orthodox Church, asks for the healing love, compassion, mercy, and forgiveness of Jesus Christ while perpetuating the sinful behavior.

Wrong. Nothing is perpetuated. It is genuine love, compassion, and mercy for the God’s flock.

They, contrary to Christ’s specific command, approve divorce and perform adulterous and bigamous marriages.

Wrong. They will grant an Ecclesiastical divorce after every effort to reconcile has failed–through mercy, love, and compassion.

The Catholic Church, of all rites, not limited by national or ethnic exclusivism as are the Orthodox churches, recognizes, in accord with Christ’s words in the gospel of Matthew, that some marriages are not legitimate and, after due investigation, proclaims them such.

They allow countless annulments for sometimes trivial reasons by retoactively erasing the sacrament of Holy Matrimony.

They were indeed null from the start.

It is difficult to believe that a marriage was “null from the start” after 20 years and three children because the couple suddenly cannot get along.

Unlike the Orthodox who apparently feel the need to tell children they are illegitimate (I know not why!) the Catholic Church does not do so.

That is a tough one for your Church. You tell them they are legitimate while telling them that their mommy and daddy were never married. That is a tough one indeed.

 

[roncriss]

I would just like to pose the following (admittedly unlikely, yet possible) scenario, which I believe may have already been mentioned here, to the Orthodox posters.

An Orthodox man and woman, who grew up in different countries, meet in college and fall in love. After years of dating, they become engaged and get married. Later on in life, they find out that they were both adopted and begin doing research, during the course of which they discover that they share the same birth parents. Therefore, they are brother and sister. Does the Orthodox Church continue to recognize this marriage?

I’m not trying to bait anyone. I am sincerely interested in the answer.

Not so unlikely that it can’t happen. Orthodox, would you consider this marriage null or not?

Separated twins marry, forced to break up in UK

Fri Jan 11, 2008 4:21pm EST

LONDON (Reuters) - Twins who were separated at birth and raised by different families met later and married but were forced to break up when they discovered their true identities, a British legislator said on Friday.

“It’s a tragedy for the couple who are involved, a terrible tragedy. Everyone’s hearts will go out to people caught up quite unwittingly in a case of incest of this kind,” David Alton, a member of Britain’s upper House of Lords, told BBC radio.

Alton first raised the case during debate on a proposed new law on in vitro fertilization (IVF). He says it highlights the need for children to know who their parents are.

He fears that under the new law, the biological identity of one parent of a child born as a result of IVF could be removed from the birth certificate, creating the potential for similar tragic mistakes to occur.

Alton told parliament last month he had heard about the twins from a High Court judge who had dealt with the case.

“It involved the normal birth of twins who were separated at birth and adopted by separate parents,” said Alton, who has no party affiliation. “They were never told that they were twins.”

“They met later in life and felt an inevitable attraction” and they got married, he said.

“When they did come to know their true identities it led to their having to separate and also to a lot of heartbreak,” Alton said on Friday. News reports said their marriage was annulled.

No further information was available about the twins or where they were from.

“This isn’t a regular occurrence but it could become one with large numbers of people now being born by IVF and not knowing their true identities,” Alton said…

END QUOTE

Well now, would the Orthodox now grant that such a marriage would be illegiimate? That a tribunal would be right to find it null? Or will they continue to insist that every marriage is valid and that God’s hands are tied?

Ron

 

[Mickey]

Let’s take the example of the sin of murder by abortion. Suppose you are an abortionist. You don’t say, “Gee, I’m sorry for this sin God, but I’m going to go on killing unborn babies and I’m going to seek your compassion in spite of the fact because Orthodoxy recognizes my weakness and my committing murder is inevitable. So, in the name of economia, please forgive my sin, though I intend to keep doing it.”

You have proved the Orthodox stance!
The couple tries to reconcile. All efforts fail. They split apart. With deep contrition they repent and God forgives them with mercy, love, and compassion.

 

[roncriss]

Originally Posted by roncriss
The Orthodox Church recogonizes Ecclesiatical divorce as a terrible tragedy but approves of it.

Wrong. They recognize fallen human nature and have compassion and mercy on God’s people…

This cannot stand! That was a direct quote from an Orthodox priest. Here is another:

“The Orthodox Church views marriage as a holy union between a man and a woman that is established and blessed by God. Marriage therefore is “a bond of a covenant that may not be broken,” according to the words of the sacrament. And yet the Church, for certain grave reasons, permits divorce and remarriage.”

If we cannot trust the Orthodox bishops and priests to propound true Orthodox doctrine on marriage and divorce who CAN we trust? Only you, Mickey?

I have repeatedly quoted from Bishop Athenagoras:

“Orthodox canon law can permit a second and even a third marriage “in economia”, but strictly forbids a fourth. In theory divorce is only recognized in the case of adultery, but in practise is also recognised in light of other reasons. There is a list of causes of divorce acceptable to the Orthodox Church. In practise the bishops sometimes apply “economia” in a liberal way.”

“Regarding divorce, the Orthodox follow Christ in recognizing it as a tragedy and a lack of fulfillment of marriage as the reflection of divine love in the world. The Church teaches the uniqueness of marriage, if it will be perfect, and is opposed to divorce absolutely. If, however, a marriage breaks down and collapses, the Orthodox Church does in fact allow a second marriage, without excommunication, that is, exclusion from Holy Communion, if there is repentance and a good chance that the new alliance can be Christian. More than one marriage in any case, however, is frowned upon. It is not allowed to the clergy, and the service of second marriage for laymen is a special rite different from the sacrament as originally celebrated.”
(Fr John Matusiak, OCA)

Are you calling Bishop Athenagoras and Fr Matusiak liars? Where do you get your Orthodox doctrine if Orthodox bishops and priests cannot be trusted? Or do you just make it up by going contrary to anything a Catholic states?

Hmmmm, this repudiation of Orthodox bishops by Mickey strikes me as a pretty good argument for papal primacy. Evidently individual priests and bishops cannot be trusted to rightly divide the truth, so we need a strong central authority as exists in the Catholic Church to define doctrine. Thanks, Mickey, for making my case!

Ron

 

[Mickey]

“The Orthodox Church views marriage as a holy union between a man and a woman that is established and blessed by God. Marriage therefore is “a bond of a covenant that may not be broken,” according to the words of the sacrament. And yet the Church, for certain grave reasons, permits divorce and remarriage.”

The Church grants an Ecclesiastical divorce for grave reasons. What are these reasons? The couple cannot reconcile. Say this very slowly with me Ronald, M-E-R-C-Y, L-O-V-E, C-O-M-P-A-S-S-I-O-N, F-O-R-G-I-V-E-N-E-S-S.

That is what it is about–not tribunals which declare “the marriage that never was”. There is nothing compassionate about that. It is legalistic–KORBAN.

If we cannot trust the Orthodox bishops and priests to propound true Orthodox doctrine on marriage and divorce who CAN we trust?

Now you make no sense.

If, however, a marriage breaks down and collapses, the Orthodox Church does in fact allow a second marriage, without excommunication, that is, exclusion from Holy Communion, if there is repentance and a good chance that the new alliance can be Christian.

Exactly.

Are you calling Bishop Athenagoras and Fr Matusiak liars?.

God forbid that I call anyone a liar. Why do you say such things? Why do you put words in people’s mouths? Why must you be so uncharitable?

Where do you get your Orthodox doctrine if Orthodox bishops and priests cannot be trusted? Or do you just make it up by going contrary to anything a Catholic states?

Such a lack of charity! This is very sad discourse Ronald.

Hmmmm, this repudiation of Orthodox bishops by Mickey…

You have now resorted to outright insults and calumny. This is very unfortunate.

strikes me as a pretty good argument for papal primacy.

Another thread.

Evidently individual priests and bishops cannot be trusted

Lord have mercy!

Thanks, Mickey, for making my case!

smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_11_6.gif

 

[Mickey]

Annulments booming
The United States has 6% of the world’s Catholics but grants 78% percent of the world’s annulments. In 1968 the Church there granted fewer than 600 annulments; from 1984 to 1994 it granted just under 59,000 annually. But more than 90% of the cases which were appealed to the highest matrimonial court, the Roman Rota, were overturned.

The author gives several reasons for the incredible growth in American annulments;

1. There is advertising in church bulletins, Catholic newspapers, and even the secular press, that annulments are available, sometimes with a suggested guarantee that they will be granted. “Some invitations practically promise an annulment to all who apply. The promotional efforts . . . may evoke responses from . . . spouses who dream of greener marital pastures but would not seriously consider separation and divorce were annulment not presented as a convenient and acceptable alternative.”

Fr. Leonard Kennedy

 

[roncriss]

The Church grants an Ecclesiastical divorce for grave reasons. What are these reasons? The couple cannot reconcile. Say this very slowly with me Ronald, M-E-R-C-Y, L-O-V-E, C-O-M-P-A-S-S-I-O-N, F-O-R-G-I-V-E-N-E-S-S.

That is what it is about–not tribunals which declare “the marriage that never was”. There is nothing compassionate about that. It is legalistic–KORBAN.
Now you make no sense.
Exactly.
God forbid that I call anyone a liar. Why do you say such things? Why do you put words in people’s mouths? Why must you be so uncharitable?
Such a lack of charity! This is very sad discourse Ronald.
You have now resorted to outright insults and calumny. This is very unfortunate.
Another thread.
Lord have mercy!

smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_11_6.gif

Mickey,

As usual you evade my direct questions and contradict the statements of Orthodox leaders. I can only believe that you do so because you realize their implication. I know Fr Matusiak personally. He is in the inner circle of the Orthodox hierarchy in the OCA. He represents the OCA on their website at the consent of his bishop. You have the nerve to contradict him and Bishop Athenagoras, pretend like I never posted their quotes, ignore direct questions, and then have the gall to suggest I am acting uncharitably. It is an insult to the intelligence of everyone here to expect us to forget each one of the quotes I have posted just because you deny them. Its called the “Orthodox Church”, not “Mickey’s Church”. You don’t get to manufacture the doctrine for them. Obviously you don’t like the Orthodox position since you find it so embarrassing, keep on contradicting it and refuse to answer questions about it. You are just like the politicians I see on TV who evade the direct questions of interviewers because they are ashamed of their own stance. I really don’t have time for your games. If anyone else wants to actually conduct a conversation I’m available. Unfortunately this is the level of logic I have grown to expect from you and your co-religionists. This inability to explain the contradictions of Orthodoxy or answer such questions is one of the reasons I left the sect.

Ron

 

[Mickey]

As usual you evade my direct questions and contradict the statements of Orthodox leaders.

I evade nothing and contradict no one. You are making things up in your head.

I know Fr Matusiak personally.

That is nice.

You have the nerve to contradict him and Bishop Athenagoras

I have contradicted no one and if you continue with this insult, I will report you to the moderators.

Its called the “Orthodox Church”, not “Mickey’s Church”.

That’s very cute. Your lack of charity knows no bounds.

You don’t get to manufacture the doctrine for them.

See above.

Obviously you don’t like the Orthodox position

The less charitable you become, the more you lack credibility.

You are just like the politicians I see on TV

More personal attacks. Is this all you have left?

I really don’t have time for your games.

You are free to leave this thread.

If anyone else wants to actually conduct a conversation I’m available.

At this point, I’m guessing you don’t have many fans left.

Unfortunately this is the level of logic I have grown to expect from you and your co-religionists.

My co-religionists! Oh my!

This inability to explain the contradictions of Orthodoxy or answer such questions is one of the reasons I left the sect.

I’m sure you had many reasons for leaving Holy Orthodoxy. May God grant you peace.

 

[Mickey]

The Orthodox Church can and does practice mercy and forgiveness, and sympathizes with couples who must consider the grave alternative of divorce in order to salvage their lives from the tragic circumstances of a broken marriage. In such painful situations the Church offers the opportunity for repentance and forgiveness and the possibility for a new beginning, with final judgment resting in the hands of the Lord. In such cases local pastors must try to limit the damage done to the spiritual lives of both the couple and their children.

 

[Mickey]

Realistically, divorces DO happen and both Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism have to deal with the reality of divorce. Neither takes a position that a person who has divorced and remarried is to be permanently barred from participation. (Would not such a position be tantamount to declaring remarriage an unforgivable and unpardonable sin?) But the manner in which they deal with the reality is very, very different… Roman Catholicism views canons as ‘laws’ (the usual term is ‘canon law’). As such, it views those laws as immutable and applicable to all. Orthodoxy, however, views canons as ‘rules’ or guidelines. As such, the guidelines are not immutable. Orthodoxy’s primary concern is with the salvation of each person. (This is the rationale behind economia). When a person seeks to marry after a divorce, Roman Catholicism believes it cannot condone ‘law breaking’ and thus cannot permit the act. To get around this ‘law’, Roman Catholicism seeks to find a reason the previous marriage was never ‘valid’ (another legalistic concept) and can therefore be declared ‘annulled’ (still another legal concept). Orthodoxy recognizes that people sin. Divorce is a sin. It faces it head-on, rather than pretending it doesn’t exist. A recently divorced Orthodox Christian is never given permission to re-marry immediately (whereas a Roman Catholic can marry immediately after receiving an annulment). Each case is determined on a case-by-case basis (there is no set formula, the canons are used as guidelines, not laws)…. When an Orthodox Christian who has previously married is allowed to marry again, the marriage service is radically different than the service for first marriages. There are no crowns, no songs of joy, no being led around the altar. Instead, it is a distinctly penitential service.

 

[Mickey]

Obviously the United States suffers from a divorce mentality. If you want a divorce you file for divorce and eventually you get a divorce. Now the American divorce mentality has found its exact counterpart in the scandal of a Catholic American annulment mentality, all the more scandalous because it has come to affect non-Catholics and non-Christians as well as Catholics. “Dear Abby,” for example, sees the annulment process as just a bit more complicated than the divorce process. You get a divorce. Then you file for an annulment and eventually you get an annulment.
(Catholic Culture)

 

[Mickey]

**“It is not a writ of divorce that dissolves marriage before God, but bad actions.” **
****St ******Cyril of **Alexandria

 

[VARC]

Obviously you don’t like the Orthodox position since you find it so embarrassing, keep on contradicting it and refuse to answer questions about it. You are just like the politicians I see on TV who evade the direct questions of interviewers because they are ashamed of their own stance.
Ron

Well if that isn’t this the pot calling the kettle black, I don’t know what is.

Your church declares marriages null, telling those children their parents were never married and when we call you on it, you say “this is spam” or “the pope has redefined ‘illegitimate’”.

Your church annuls 60,000 marriages every year in the U.S. alone on the basis of "lack of understanding "and you pretend that doesn’t happen saying “we annul marriages between brother and sister”.

Gimme a break.

 

[peso73]

I think our catholic annulment stuff is if it was being properly delegated like a few examples earlier, ie forced into the marriage, or incest, bigamy whatever, is proper, fine, and in accord with bible/church/ECF, etc…BUT, the reality is the way things go down in this country is total nonsense and I agree with the Orthodox posters that it functions as a “Catholic divorce”…
BUT, until I learned it very recently, I didn’t know and was surprised to learn the Orthodox church allowed divorce and re-marriage…this kind of does seem to blow away the idea that the Orthodox church is really orthodox 100%…as far as I can tell…I agree that divorce and re-marriage is a near-impossible issue for the two One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic churches ,
the reality is that if all the divorced and re-married members that refused to live as brother and sister or remain chaste and single of either churches were told they were adulterers and that if they didn’t repent and stop being with one another, the churches would have even fewer members than they do now…
Christ’s way is not very easy and in so many ways seems to go against human instinct, that I have heard that without God’s grace it would be impossible…BUT, all that being said, didn’t the Lord give His church His authority to bind and loose, and if He did, then isn’t the church allowed to loose those ties that bind?
In which case, both the Orthodox and the Roman Catholic churches could do whatever they want as far as allowing divorce and remarriage or annulment or whatever, right?

 

[roncriss]

“I charge you,” said he, "to guard your chastity, and let no thought enter your heart of another man’s wife, or of fornication, or of similar iniquities; for by doing this you commit a great sin. But if you always remember your own wife, you will never sin. For if this thought enter your heart, then you will sin; and if, in like manner, you think other wicked thoughts, you commit sin. For this thought is great sin in a servant of God. But if any one commit this wicked deed, he works death for himself.

Attend, therefore, and refrain from this thought; for where purity dwells, there iniquity ought not to enter the heart of a righteous man." I said to him, “Sir, permit me to ask you a few questions.” “Say on,” said he. And I said to him, “Sir, if any one has a wife who trusts in the Lord, and if he detect her in adultery, does the man sin if he continue to live with her?”

And he said to me, “As long as he remains ignorant of her sin, the husband commits no transgression in living with her. But if the husband know that his wife has gone astray, and if the woman does not repent, but persists in her fornication, and yet the husband continues to live with her, he also is guilty of her crime, and a sharer in her adultery.” And I said to him, “What then, sir, is the husband to do, if his wife continue in her vicious practices?” And he said, “The husband should put her away, and remain by himself. But if he put his wife away and marry another, he also commits adultery.”

And I said to him, “What if the woman put away should repent, and wish to return to her husband: shall she not be taken back by her husband?” And he said to me, "Assuredly. If the husband do not take her back, he sins, and brings a great sin upon himself; for he ought to take back the sinner who has repented…In this matter man and woman are to be treated exactly in the same way. –The Shepherd of Hermas 4:1-10

 

[VARC]

Amazing, look at this double standard. You refuse to answer the magical number 3 question and spin it into a Catholic problem and accuse us of Corban. ANSWER the magical number 3 and stop the spamming of this thread. And an “answer” of “because Orthodox are merciful” DOESNT cut it.

.

Unbelievable. You complain about the Orthodox reluctantly allowing one divorce for serious reasons when your own church will annul multiple marriages on the basis of “lack of knowledge” without so much as even one act of contrition because a panel of canon lawyers declares the marriage never existed. You have yet to even acknowlege the deplorable practice of your church.

Another Gospel passage comes to my mind:

1 Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. 3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
Matthew 7:1

 

[Isa_Almisry]

So, until one of you has the courage to answer the direct question, we will assume that you Orthodox believe that all marriages are valid, that a marriage between a sister and brother is legitimate and cannot be annulled. We will assume that you believe God actually joins sister and brother in marriage, or that He joins a couple in a shotgun wedding or when a person marries who is already married (clearly that’s what you expect with your multiple divorces and re-marriages in church).

On the contrary Catholic tribunals do not tear assunder what God has joined. We Catholics believe that God will not join together, for example, brother and sister, so there is no marriage to be torn asunder. **The anullment process merely recognizes the fact. **Catholicism recognizes God’s autonomy. Apparently the Orthodox view marriage as some sort of magical ceremony that forces Him to join every couple that stands before an Orthodox priest. Until one of you Orthodox speaks up to contradict Isa’s statement this will be the accepted Orthodox position.

Well, Rome has spoken. I guess we can’t debate what she says our position is.

Then you should be busy recognizing those “facts” before it comes to divorce. Examine those marriages and declare them invalid, whether they want to remain married or not.

On the brother sister thing, I don’t know. It is a forbidden relation, but if they have kids already, that’s a problem. It’s also a problem in that they have also obviously consumated a marriage.

Now, there’s the other problems in that forbidden relations also include spiritual ones. So the fact that they were raised in ignorance of being brother and sister is also an issue.

Another issue is we recognize no marriage between an Orthodox and a non-Christian. That is, unlike with Rome, an impediment that cannot be removed.

I don’t have the relevant canons in front of me. If there were no children. My guess would be the couple would be divorced. In other words, they would admit what HAPPENED, repent of it, and move on. If there were children involved, that would be another matter.

Of course you are coming up with the most legal, insane example to rationalize you legal fiction. We’re dealing with 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of all the other marriages.

Have you thought at all about pastoral concerns in such a case, especially when children were involved.

The only instance I’ve heard of this happening was in Spain. They were forced to remain married, but live as brother and sister. That was your church.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

They can’t admit that such a marriage would be illegitimate or they would have to admit that the Catholic annullment process is correct in principle.

But here’s another thing. If such marriages cannot be annulled, as the Orthodox here contend, they are admitting that they practice multiple marriages because the previous marriage, in their view, cannot be illegitimate. Even the Mormons have ceased to practice multiple marriage.

Ron

Under the canons of the Fathers, still the Orthodox canons, a remarried widow/er is a bigamist.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Mickey,

Let’s take the example of the sin of murder by abortion. Suppose you are an abortionist. You don’t say, “Gee, I’m sorry for this sin God, but I’m going to go on killing unborn babies and I’m going to seek your compassion in spite of the fact because Orthodoxy recognizes my weakness and my committing murder is inevitable. So, in the name of economia, please forgive my sin, though I intend to keep doing it.”

No, God requires repentance before He forgives. Repentance requires metanoia, the intention to reform one’s behavior in the future. If one is committing adultery one doesn’t just keep on doing it and asking God to overlook it. One doesn’t have that adultery blessed in church before God’s altar. But this seems to be exactly the Orthodox practice, by your own admission and understanding.

Ron

No, with your defense of Babe Ruth, that is your own admission and understanding. We have a problem with marrying adulterers.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

This cannot stand! That was a direct quote from an Orthodox priest. Here is another:

“The Orthodox Church views marriage as a holy union between a man and a woman that is established and blessed by God. Marriage therefore is “a bond of a covenant that may not be broken,” according to the words of the sacrament. And yet the Church, for certain grave reasons, permits divorce and remarriage.”

If we cannot trust the Orthodox bishops and priests to propound true Orthodox doctrine on marriage and divorce who CAN we trust? Only you, Mickey?

I have repeatedly quoted from Bishop Athenagoras:

“Orthodox canon law can permit a second and even a third marriage “in economia”, but strictly forbids a fourth. In theory divorce is only recognized in the case of adultery, but in practise is also recognised in light of other reasons. There is a list of causes of divorce acceptable to the Orthodox Church. In practise the bishops sometimes apply “economia” in a liberal way.”

“Regarding divorce, the Orthodox follow Christ in recognizing it as a tragedy and a lack of fulfillment of marriage as the reflection of divine love in the world. The Church teaches the uniqueness of marriage, if it will be perfect, and is opposed to divorce absolutely. If, however, a marriage breaks down and collapses, the Orthodox Church does in fact allow a second marriage, without excommunication, that is, exclusion from Holy Communion, if there is repentance and a good chance that the new alliance can be Christian. More than one marriage in any case, however, is frowned upon. It is not allowed to the clergy, and the service of second marriage for laymen is a special rite different from the sacrament as originally celebrated.”
(Fr John Matusiak, OCA)

Are you calling Bishop Athenagoras and Fr Matusiak liars? Where do you get your Orthodox doctrine if Orthodox bishops and priests cannot be trusted? Or do you just make it up by going contrary to anything a Catholic states?

Hmmmm, this repudiation of Orthodox bishops by Mickey strikes me as a pretty good argument for papal primacy. Evidently individual priests and bishops cannot be trusted to rightly divide the truth, so we need a strong central authority as exists in the Catholic Church to define doctrine. Thanks, Mickey, for making my case!

Ron

You mean that pope who condemns the obvious fraud perpetuated in the US marriage tribunals, but seems unable to solve/stop it?