Orthodoxy on divorce and annulments

[Fuerza]

Mickey understands the sacrament of Holy Matrimony. But he cannot seem to wrap his mind around the retroactive erasure of said sacrament.

Again, to be clear, there is no erasure of a sacrament here. The sacrament never took place to begin with. A decree of nullity simply recognizes this fact.

 

[Mickey]

Again, to be clear, there is no erasure of a sacrament here. The sacrament never took place to begin with. A decree of nullity simply recognizes this fact.

And that is the crux of the matter. The sacrament never really happened to begin with. And so for many years they live as husband and wife raising their children. Then one day they can go through the Church to have the marriage declared to have never occurred. To me, it is erasure of the sacrament through legalistic justification.

 

[Alexios]

Mickey,

Despite you insisting that you understand the argument, you clearly do not. Simply stating otherwise does not make it true,

Let’s try it again, slowly…

(1) Catholic view: Marriages cannot be dissolved. By you saying that an annulment dissolves the marriage by declaring it never existed, you are showing yourself to be very thickheaded. I’m honestly not trying to offend, but a marriage cannot be “dissolved” if it never existed. So if you insist on saying you understand it all, then stop saying that annulments dissolve marriages, because it makes you look foolish. You obviously either don’t get it or don’t want to understand it.

(2) Eastern Orthodox view: For certain reasons (and the reasons are not what are important here), a marriage can be dissolved. Reasons: not important; the point is that a marriage can be dissolved. Now THAT is an erasing of a Sacrament if I ever saw one. This is not the Catholic view.

The fact that chaos has resulted in marriages is not the fault of the Catholic Church or her annulment process, but rather the fault of a society that does not understand marriage in the least. These problems didn’t exist years ago because society understood marriage much better. Now, individual court tribunals can abuse the annulment process, just as anyone in a position of authority within the Church can abuse his power. Newsflash: Orthodox clerics in positions of power can abuse their power and influence as well. Or maybe you should check in with ex-Jerusalem Patriarch Irenaios, or Bishop Nikolai of the OCA in Alaska or any other number of persons.

 

[Alexios]

Mickey, the Church cannot erase a marriage. In the Latin tradition, Holy Matrimony is a Sacrament conferred on each other by the spouse, in the presence in and with the blessing of the Church. It is not the Church’s to dissolve, but simply to be called in to investigate to see if it exists or not if one of the partners tries for an annulment.

 

[Mickey]

Despite you insisting that you understand the argument, you clearly do not. Simply stating otherwise does not make it true

Sigh.

Let’s try it again, slowly.

250 plus posts is slow enough. You know my position. You will not convince me otherwise. I am glad that you are at peace with the process of annulment.

you are showing yourself to be very thickheaded.

I will stop responding to you if you persist with insults.

I’m honestly not trying to offend

You just did.

it makes you look foolish.

As Ronald Reagan used to say, “There you go again”.

Newsflash: Orthodox clerics in positions of power can abuse their power and influence as well. Or maybe you should check in with ex-Jerusalem Patriarch Irenaios, or Bishop Nikolai of the OCA in Alaska or any other number of persons.

If you would like to begin a finger pointing game, go right ahead and start another thread. But I will not participate.

Prentending that a marriage never occurred (even though children are involved) is the same as dissolving or erasing the marriage under the guise of a legalistic annulment process.

Now you may not agree with me, but I do not call you names, so it is sad that you must resort to insults against me.

 

[roncriss]

Unbelievable. You complain about the Orthodox reluctantly allowing one divorce for serious reasons when your own church will annul multiple marriages on the basis of “lack of knowledge” without so much as even one act of contrition because a panel of canon lawyers declares the marriage never existed. You have yet to even acknowlege the deplorable practice of your church.

Another Gospel passage comes to my mind:

1 Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. 3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
Matthew 7:1

Though you Orthodox refuse to admit even that a marriage between brother and sister would be null and void, because it would be an admission that the Catholic Church is right in principle, an illegitimate marriage was indeed the ONLY allowance granted by our Lord. Both Our Lord and St Paul, echoing Him, stated quite clearly that there was to be no divorce from a legitimate marriage, and that if a spouse left he or she was to remain unmarried. You are quite quick to selectively quote scriptures when you think they support you, though you ignore them entirely when you want to disobey them.

Christ granted that in principle some marriages are illegitimate. The Catholic practice recognizes this fact and establishes tribunals to determine which ones these are. The practice may be inexcusably abused, but this does not make Our Lord wrong in principle as you imply.

The Orthodox disobey the direct commandments of Jesus and St Paul by ecclesiastically recognizing divorces and then marrying those who are still, according to Our Lord, married, thereby officially approving their adultery.

Luke 16
18 'Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another is guilty of adultery, and the man who marries a woman divorced by her husband commits adultery.

Its that simple. The Catholic Church follows Our Lord’s commandment. Choose this day who you will serve.

Ron

 

[roncriss]

Catholic view: Marriages cannot be dissolved. By you saying that an annulment dissolves the marriage by declaring it never existed, you are showing yourself to be very thickheaded. I’m honestly not trying to offend, but a marriage cannot be “dissolved” if it never existed. So if you insist on saying you understand it all, then stop saying that annulments dissolve marriages, because it makes you look foolish. You obviously either don’t get it or don’t want to understand it.

Alexios,

They DO get it. The fact is made clear by their refusal to answer direct questions which they realize would result in an admission. They can’t use logic or even bring themselves to agree with your very sound reasoning. They must pretend not to understand the import of very common english words. So don’t hold your breath waiting for them to admit that they comprehend your very simple and undeniable reasoning. They realize that to admit the facts would result in the necessity to do what I did: leave an Orthodox sect and come into union with the one, holy and Catholic Church.

Ron

 

[Mickey]

The Orthodox disobey the direct commandments of Jesus

It is a shame that you continue to write such scathing comments.

As with the appearance of light, darkness retreats; so, at the fragrance of humility, all anger and bitterness vanishes.
St. John Climacus****

 

[Mickey]

They realize that to admit the facts would result in the necessity to do what I did: leave an Orthodox sect and come into union with the one, holy and Catholic Church.

The fact that you use words such as “sect” to describe Holy Orthodoxy, speaks directly to your demeanor. Sad. Very sad.

 

[roncriss]

Not true. The RCC “undoes” Holy Orders when it defrocks a preist.

No, it doesn’t. He is considered to still be a priest. According to Catholic doctrine, and that of the Orthodox I believe, clothes do not make the man in this case.

Ron

 

[roncriss]

Not entirely true, I think. Their theology says he is still a priest, just forbidden to exercise it.

In the Orthodox Church, another difference. A defrocked priest is laicized. Since the priesthood is not his personal property, once he has been laicized, and ceases to act in stead of the bishop, he has no power, status or authority anymore. Rome says he still has the “power to confect the Eucharist,” but may not.

I stand corrected:

“In Eastern Orthodoxy, doctrine does not state that the priesthood confers an indelible character on the person’s soul. Laicization removes the ordained status completely. All sacred actions of a former clergyman are normally considered invalid (beginning from the time of laicization).”

“In Roman Catholicism, a laicized priest is forbidden to exercise his priestly functions, but an indelible priestly character is held to remain on his soul (or to put it simply, “once a priest, always a priest”). Consequently, any exercise of his sacramental powers is considered valid even though illegal because he has been laicized. (In fact, in the case of danger of life, a laicized priest must give the Last Rites or at least absolve the dying.)”
(Wikipedia)

So Orthodox think they can un-do holy orders like they do marriage. We disagree. Of course the Catholic Church, being guided into all truth by the Holy Spirit, with “Peter” at the helm, is right, while the many sects of Orthodoxy, being led by fallible men, are wrong. This is a perfect example of why you need the Pope and the Magisterium.

Ron

 

[roncriss]

The fact that you use words such as “sect” to describe Holy Orthodoxy, speaks directly to your demeanor. Sad. Very sad.

It is factual. There is only one Christian Church, which subsists in the Catholic Church. There are not many autonomous ethnic and nationalist churches loosely united through inter-communion. These are man-made sects. Christ did not found them. It is charitable to recognize the truth, no matter how uncomfortable you may find it. Sorry, you won’t find me abandoning Catholic doctrine to salve your feelings. Tough love.

Ron

 

[Mickey]

the many sects of Orthodoxy, being led by fallible men, are wrong.

**My children, desire to purify your hearts from envy and from anger with each other, lest death should overcome you, and you will be counted among the murderers. For whosoever hates his brother, kills a soul. **
Abba Anthony the Great.

 

[roncriss]

The fact that you use words such as “sect” to describe Holy Orthodoxy, speaks directly to your demeanor. Sad. Very sad.

I would add that there is no monolithic “Holy Orthodoxy”, just a loose and changeable conglomeration of national churches, some in communion with others and some not, which, more often than not, are so politically divided that they cannot even bring themselves to concelebrate a liturgy with those supposed in communion. It would be more accurate to say “Orthodox churches”. For example at one time the Russian Church was warring with the Russian Church Outside Russia. Now it seems they’ve made up. Before the RCOR was supposed to be a false church. There is no one Orthodox Church. It is telling that the Orthodox churches have lacked the unity required to convene an ecumenical council ever since the schism from the Catholic Church.

Ron

 

[Mickey]

Sorry, you won’t find me abandoning Catholic doctrine to salve your feelings.

Believe me, my brother in Christ. I would never ask you to abandon Catholic doctrine. Doing so would not salve my feelings. I have expressed my view on annulment vs Ecclesiatical divorce. And since you do like what I have to say, you attack Holy Orthodoxy. This one is between you and Almighty God.

 

[Mickey]

There is no one Orthodox Church.

If you would like to continue to air your bitter feelings toward Holy Orthodoxy, I would recommend that you start another thread.

 

[Alexios]

Mickey,

I apologize if I inadvertently insulted you, but can you not agree that it would be foolish to say you understand something when you’re still talking about how annulments somehow dissolve marriages?

That’s like saying you understand football, yet talk about how a touchdown gives you 8 points. It’s just foolish.

 

[roncriss]

Again, to be clear, there is no erasure of a sacrament here. The sacrament never took place to begin with. A decree of nullity simply recognizes this fact.

Mickey doesn’t WANT to understand what a 5 year old could easily grasp.

Ron

 

[roncriss]

It is a shame that you continue to write such scathing comments.

As with the appearance of light, darkness retreats; so, at the fragrance of humility, all anger and bitterness vanishes.
St. John Climacus****

It is a shame you cannot simply obey the Lord on this issue. It is scathing because true.

Ron

 

[roncriss]

**My children, desire to purify your hearts from envy and from anger with each other, lest death should overcome you, and you will be counted among the murderers. For whosoever hates his brother, kills a soul. **
Abba Anthony the Great.

What’s the matter, Mickey? Are you feeling envy and anger?

Ron