Orthodoxy on divorce and annulments

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Mickey,

I apologize if I inadvertently insulted you, but can you not agree that it would be foolish to say you understand something when you’re still talking about how annulments somehow dissolve marriages?

That’s like saying you understand football, yet talk about how a touchdown gives you 8 points. It’s just foolish.
It’s calling a spade a spade. Or as the Oxford English Dictionary records “call it a bloody shovel.”:eek:

Btw, this is also founded on another mistranslation from Greek (the NT original) and Latin: Plutarch speaks of a basin, την σκαφην σκαφην λεγοντας, but Erasmus mistranslated it ligo “shovel.”
 
The fact that chaos has resulted in marriages is not the fault of the Catholic Church or her annulment process, but rather the fault of a society … .

Now, we are in no disagreement that annulments these days are far too easy to get and oftentimes the ecclesiastical courts make a mockery of marriage. There are probably quite a few couples who are legitimately married but have nevertheless been issued a Decree of Nullity. That’s no one’s faults but the lax practice of court tribunals.
Finally… I have been waiting for this.

Catholics know darn well that what their church is doing is wrong. They too see the image of the pharisee and the publican. However, they do not put the blame where it belongs. It is not the Roman Church’s fault, it’s “society’s” fault or that “ecclesiastical courts make a mockery of marriage”. It’s like a battered wife defending her husband.

Let’s see if the shoe fits the other foot.

Roncriss was only too happy to throw this in Mickey’s face…

"Its called the “Orthodox Church”, not “Mickey’s Church”

**The bishops of the Roman Catholic including the Pope, are the ones responsible for this “mockery of marriage”!!! **They are the people in charge “ecclesiatical courts” that void the marriages of tens of thousands of marriages every year for “lack of knowledge”. Civil society has no control over the process. You call it an abuse, but the bishop’s who run your church call it diocsean policy. And the pope, who has the authority to stop these “abuses”, has watched this from the Vatican for decades and has done ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to stop it. His silence is passive approval of this “abuse”.

So I’d like to use the words of roncriss agian…

“Hmmmm, this repudiation of Orthodox bishops by Mickey strikes me as a pretty good argument for papal primacy.”

I think that your repudiation of the Catholic bishops, the pope included, strikes me as a pretty good argument against papal infallibility.
 
How about the exercise of the Petrine and Pauline “privileges”: they both dissolve a valid marriage.
Somebody is not listening. I already explained that the Pauline priveledge applies only to pagan marriages between a Christian and a non-believer. Besides they call it the “Pauline priveledge” because St Paul stated it in Scripture. Now I realize that you Orthodox have problems with Scripture, as is evident by your general inability to understand Christ’s words concerning divorce, but I suggest that if you have a problem with St Paul’s words that you will just have to bring it up with him when you see him. I just recommend you bring it up AFTER he lets you thru the heavenly gates, not before!

:angel1:

Ron
 
As has been posted so often on an erstwhile forum, we haven’t had the need to call an Ecumenical council, unlike Rome, so mired in heresies and schisms.
Isa, you are kidding me, right? No heresies in the East? Now I know you are just messing with us!
:doh2:

Ron
 
Isa, you post a lot so it’s sort of hard to keep track, but you’re right about calling a spade a spade. That’s why I called him foolish. 😉

Petrine and Pauline Privileges are about NATURAL non-Christian marriages, not supernatural ones. I’ll post a link when I have more time.
 
Finally… I have been waiting for this.

Catholics know darn well that what their church is doing is wrong. They too see the image of the pharisee and the publican. However, they do not put the blame where it belongs. It is not the Roman Church’s fault, it’s “society’s” fault or that “ecclesiastical courts make a mockery of marriage”. It’s like a battered wife defending her husband.

Let’s see if the shoe fits the other foot.

Roncriss was only too happy to throw this in Mickey’s face…

"Its called the “Orthodox Church”, not “Mickey’s Church”

**The bishops of the Roman Catholic including the Pope, are the ones responsible for this “mockery of marriage”!!! **They are the people in charge “ecclesiatical courts” that void the marriages of tens of thousands of marriages every year for “lack of knowledge”. Civil society has no control over the process. You call it an abuse, but the bishop’s who run your church call it diocsean policy. And the pope, who has the authority to stop these “abuses”, has watched this from the Vatican for decades and has done ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to stop it. His silence is passive approval of this “abuse”.

So I’d like to use the words of roncriss agian…

“Hmmmm, this repudiation of Orthodox bishops by Mickey strikes me as a pretty good argument for papal primacy.”

I think that your repudiation of the Catholic bishops, the pope included, strikes me as a pretty good argument against papal infallibility.
BULLSEYE!!! :clapping:
 
Somebody is not listening. I already explained that the Pauline priveledge applies only to pagan marriages between a Christian and a non-believer.
We’re all aware of that. Your point? Your canon law makes its own rules on such a marriage, and holds it valid. The “privilege” dissolves a valid marriage.
Besides they call it the “Pauline priveledge” because St Paul stated it in Scripture. Now I realize that you Orthodox have problems with Scripture, as is evident by your general inability to understand Christ’s words concerning divorce,
we know Corban when we see it.
but I suggest that if you have a problem with St Paul’s words that you will just have to bring it up with him when you see him. I just recommend you bring it up AFTER he lets you thru the heavenly gates, not before!
I have no problem with St. Paul, his words, or admitting that it dissolves a valid marriage.

:angel1:

Ron
 
Isa, you are kidding me, right? No heresies in the East? Now I know you are just messing with us!
:doh2:
No, they do crop up from time to time. But they can’t put down roots, so we don’t have the weeding problems of the first millenium, or the West.
 
Isa, you post a lot so it’s sort of hard to keep track, but you’re right about calling a spade a spade. That’s why I called him foolish. 😉

Petrine and Pauline Privileges are about NATURAL non-Christian marriages, not supernatural ones. I’ll post a link when I have more time.
Since Rome lets her faithful get into such marriges (I’ve been to one officiated by a priest and a rabbi), your point?

Can. 1059 Even if only one party is Catholic, the marriage of Catholics is governed not only by divine law but also by canon law, without prejudice to the competence of civil authority concerning the merely civil effects of the same marriage.

Can. 1118 §1. A marriage between Catholics or between a Catholic party and a non-Catholic baptized party is to be celebrated in a parish church. It can be celebrated in another church or oratory with the permission of the local ordinary or pastor.

§2. The local ordinary can permit a marriage to be celebrated in another suitable place.

§3. A marriage between a Catholic party and a non-baptized party can be celebrated in a church or in another suitable place.

cont…
 
Can. 1142 For a just cause, the Roman Pontiff can dissolve a non-consummated marriage between baptized persons or between a baptized party and a non-baptized party at the request of both parties or of one of them, even if the other party is unwilling.

Can. 1143 §1. A marriage entered into by two non-baptized persons **is dissolved **by means of the pauline privilege in favor of the faith of the party who has received baptism by the very fact that a new marriage is contracted by the same party, provided that the non-baptized party departs.

§2. The non-baptized party is considered to depart if he or she does not wish to cohabit with the baptized party or to cohabit peacefully without aVront to the Creator unless the baptized party, after baptism was received, has given the other a just cause for departing.

Can. 1144 §1. For the baptized party to contract a new marriage validly, the non-baptized party must always be interrogated whether:

1/ he or she also wishes to receive baptism;

2/ he or she at least wishes to cohabit peacefully with the baptized party without aVront to the Creator.

§2. This interrogation must be done after baptism. For a grave cause, however, the local ordinary can permit the interrogation to be done before baptism or can even dispense from the interrogation either before or after baptism provided that it is evident at least by a summary and extrajudicial process that it cannot be done or would be useless.

Can. 1145 §1. The interrogation is regularly to be done on the authority of the local ordinary of the converted party.

This ordinary must grant the other spouse a period of time to respond if the spouse seeks it, after having been advised, however, that his or her silence will be considered a negative response if the period passes without effect.

§2. Even an interrogation made privately by the converted party is valid and indeed licit if the form prescribed above cannot be observed.

§3. In either case, the fact that the interrogation was done and its outcome must be established legitimately in the external forum.

Can. 1146 The baptized party has the right to contract a new marriage with a Catholic party:

1/ if the other party responded negatively to the interrogation or if the interrogation had been omitted legitimately;

2/ if the non-baptized party, already interrogated or not, at first persevered in peaceful cohabitation without aVront to the Creator but then departed without a just cause, without prejudice to the prescripts of cann. ⇒ 1144 and ⇒ 1145.

Can. 1147 For a grave cause, however, the local ordinary can allow a baptized party who uses the pauline privilege to contract marriage with a non-Catholic party, whether baptized or not baptized; the prescripts of the canons about mixed marriages are also to be observed.

Can. 1148 §1. When he receives baptism in the Catholic Church, a non-baptized man who has several non-baptized wives at the same time can retain one of them after the others have been dismissed, if it is hard for him to remain with the first one. The same is valid for a non-baptized woman who has several non-baptized husbands at the same time.

§2. In the cases mentioned in §1, marriage must be contracted in legitimate form after baptism has been received, and the prescripts about mixed marriages, if necessary, and other matters required by the law are to be observed.

§3. Keeping in mind the moral, social, and economic conditions of places and of persons, the local ordinary is to take care that the needs of the first wife and the others dismissed are sufficiently provided for according to the norms of justice, Christian charity, and natural equity.

Can. 1149 A non-baptized person who, after having received baptism in the Catholic Church, cannot restore cohabitation with a non-baptized spouse by reason of captivity or persecution can contract another marriage even if the other party has received baptism in the meantime, without prejudice to the prescript of ⇒ can. 1141.

Can. 1150 In a doubtful matter the privilege of faith possesses the favor of the law.

While getting this, I came across this:

Can. 1090 §1. Anyone who with a view to entering marriage with a certain person has brought about the death of that person’s spouse or of one’s own spouse invalidly attempts this marriage.

§2. Those who have brought about the death of a spouse by mutual physical or moral cooperation also invalidly attempt a marriage together.

What’s the problem? Back to my Babe Ruth example (not that he killed his wife, just the laid back acceptance of his “legitimizing” his adultery).

And this:

Can. 1085 §1. A person bound by the bond of a prior marriage, even if it was not consummated, invalidly attempts marriage.

§2. Even if the prior marriage is invalid or dissolved for any reason, it is not on that account permitted to contract another before the nullity or dissolution of the prior marriage is established legitimately and certainly.

What if someone has marriage A. Gets divorced, remarries B. Gets divorced and wants to remarry C, and goes to get B anulled. B gets anulled because of marriage A not being anulled. So said someone goes on to get A anulled. Well, how does that not now create an impediment for C on the basis of B?

on the ancient canon on remarriage after adultery:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=3160345
 
That’s why I called him foolish. 😉
Hmmm? You apologize for insulting me. And then you insult me again!

I am deeply moved regarding Holy Orthodoxy and Her pastoral care, love, mercy, compassion, and forgiveness. On the other hand, I am saddened by the RC practice of annulment (Corban) and the proclamation of non-existent marriages.

You may continue to insult me. But I refuse to respond in kind.
 
Ok I looked up “Corban” online to see what you, Isa, etc, mean by it (I had never heard of it 😊 ) ,but it said it means the sacrifices in the Jewish religion…how are you using it in the (extremely long, drawn out, circular, yet somehow inescapeable) context of this thread? In other words, what do you mean when you are saying “we recognize corban when we see it?”

P.S. I am at home on dissablity for right now, it’s none of my business really, but what’s your guys’ excuse? Are you getting paid for this? 😛
 
I have no problem with St. Paul, his words, or admitting that it dissolves a valid marriage.

:angel1:
Isa,

Ah, I see the difference now. Catholics believe that Christian marriage is a sacrament. You consider the marriage by a justice of the peace between pagans to be a equal to a Christian marriage. Here is something else we agree with Paul on, but disagree with Orthodox development.

I was married in a Shinto temple, my wife and I agnostics, and it was blessed by a Buddhist priest. Come to think of it, when I was Orthodox there was no suggestion that we have a Christian marriage. But when we joined the Catholic Church we had to regularize our marriage with a Christian ceremony at the same time we made a profession of faith.

Here is another example of where the Orthodox are not in accord with Scripture apparently. Thanks for pointing this out.

Ron
 
Since Rome lets her faithful get into such marriges (I’ve been to one officiated by a priest and a rabbi), your point?

Can. 1059 Even if only one party is Catholic, the marriage of Catholics is governed not only by divine law but also by canon law, without prejudice to the competence of civil authority concerning the merely civil effects of the same marriage.

Can. 1118 §1. A marriage between Catholics or between a Catholic party and a non-Catholic baptized party is to be celebrated in a parish church. It can be celebrated in another church or oratory with the permission of the local ordinary or pastor.

§2. The local ordinary can permit a marriage to be celebrated in another suitable place.

§3. A marriage between a Catholic party and a non-baptized party can be celebrated in a church or in another suitable place.

cont…
You answered your own question. It was officiated by a priest. Therfore it was a Christian ceremony, a sacrament.

Ron
 
Why wait till one of the parties wants one? The church is an interested third party, why should it wait?
I would like to expand on your point because I think it was an important point in demonstrating the hypocracy of the RCC.

In 2006, the Catholic Church invalidated the marraiges of over 57,000 couples in the U.S. alone. You catholics know that these marraiges aren’t incestious or shotgun weddings. Rather, these are people who weren’t happy with their marriages and they went to the Catholic church to find a way out. The Church gave them a way out in its annulment tribunals. They searched and searched to find a reason to invalidate these marriages and usually end up with the excuse of “lack of knowlege”. So PRESTO. The whole marriage was a fraud, they were objectively living in fornication, and their children are bastardized.

So back to Isa’s point. Of the 57,000 annulments granted in 2006, how may do you think were granted against the protests of both spouses? Not One. The annulment tribunal is an On-Demand marriage nullifier. Can you imagine just for a moment, what would happen if the RCC applied the standards of the annulment tribunal to every marriage in the U.S. The vast majority of the marriages in the U.S. would be invalidated. But the RCC only applies those standards when one or both of the parties desires to end the marriage. This is called their “pastoral approach”.

Let me bring it to real life. I know a couple who was married in the catholic church. Before they got married, they had to answer a 200 question survey of very private issues required by the diocese. The preist is supposed to look at the survey and counsel the couple based on the answers. But the preist lost this couple’s survey so just skipped that part. After a few years, the husband mentioned this to another preist, who just happened to be training to become a canon lawyer in that diocese. The preist said that his marriage could be annulled on the basis of lack of knowledge because there had not been an opportunity to discuss all of those personal issues disclosed in the pre-marriage interviews. Concerned about the validity of his marriage, he asked what he should do. The preist told him not to worry about it because the couple loved one another. That sort of thing is only an issue if somebody wants “out”.

The annulment is a legal fiction. They want to save face on the one hand by claiming that they proclaim that do not allow divorce. On the other hand, they want to provide their members a way out of marriage for pastoral reasons (The very same reason that the Orthodox allow divorce and remarriage). So they use the On-Demand annulment tribunal to have their cake and eat it too. And the worst part about it all is that they wag their fingers in shame at the orthodox while they perpetrate this fraud with their heads held high. But they are not fooling anybody…

"In the meantime, when so many thousands of the people had gathered together that they were trampling one another, he began to say to his disciples first, "Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. Nothing is covered up that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known. "

Luke 12
 
Isa, you’re still not making a dent in the Catholic argument. For a marriage to be valid it the parties not only have to give and receive consent but have to consummate the marriage. Thus the “dissolving” of a “marriage” between two baptized persons who have not consummated a marriage. Supernatural marriages (marriages between baptized Christians) can never be dissolved, just as we have been stating. An unconsummated marriage is not valid.

What are you confused about?
 
Hey, do any of you know what these folks mean by “Corban” in this thread? …and I agree with Alexios (?) Isa has not made a point invalidating annulments as far as saying that they are IN FACT the same as a divorce, because an annulment is not the same as a divorce :tsktsk: , HOWEVER, Varc and Isa and the rest ARE totally on base in that the annulment institution as it functions in todays day and age at least, is TOTALLY the same in effect as divorce 😊, it is a loophole for divorce except for the most rare of circumstances …sooo…it is in and of itself NOT the same as a divorce…but in REALITY it is totally used for a way for us catholics to divorce and not have to arrange for our ex to have an unfortuneate “accident” to allow us to move on…😛
That is all there is too it!
YES, my separated Orthodox brethern, the annulment process as it is used probably 99% of the time is a total joke and hypocritical and a load of STUFF :ouch: , but having said that HOW does your church reconcile divorce and remarrige with the very clear words of scripture ??? 🤷 Oh, I agree it would be more merciful and compassionate to allow for this, BUT the bible seems to take a less merciful and compassionate standpoint; PLEASE, 2 things: answer the ? re: how can you allow divorce and remarrige in the face of scripture, and WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY CORBAN? :banghead:
🤷
 
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