Orthodoxy on divorce and annulments

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Divorce in the Orthodox Church an Orthodox Innovation.
Sorry my friend. Holy Orthodoxy recognizes our human failings. When pastoral counseling fails, the Church practices mercy, love, compassion, and forgiveness. The innovation comes when the RCC goes back in time to claim that a marriage never occurred freeing the couple to re-marry with a clear conscience while confusing the children.

Now if you would like to talk about innovations. Perhaps you could start threads on: infallibility, purgatory, indulgences, IC, filioque, etc…
 
Could not disagree more.
RCC changed the Creed. Innovation.
RCC forced to define Real Presence due to protestantism.
Bishop of Rome always had a primacy of honor–not supreme papal infallibility–this was innovated in 1870.

I have decided to take the side of mercy, love, compassion and forgiveness over the pharisaical and legalistic structures of an RC tribunal system.
Do not be delusional. I have seen the true faith–and it resides in the Holy Orthodox Church.
Mickey,

I expect no admissions from you. Just like I expect no citations from the Fathers to substantiate any of Orthodoxy’s deviations. Just a quote from Fr Meyendorf expressing the Orthodox deviation. As usual only I quote pertinent source citations. All you have is your own personal insistence. Mickey has spoken! But that’s not enough for true sons of the Church. Sorry. I suspect in fact that what you are doing in this Catholic forum is trying to convince yourself that your apostasy is defensible:

“For the extremities of the earth, and all in every part of it who purely and rightly confess the Lord, look directly towards the most holy Roman Church and its confession and faith, as it were a sun of unfailing light, awaiting from it the bright radiance of our fathers, according to what the six inspired and holy Councils have purely and piously decreed, declaring most expressly the symbol of faith. For from the coming down of the Incarnate Word among us, all the churches in every part of the world have possessed that greatest church alone as their base and foundation, seeing that, according to the promise of Christ Our Savior, the gates of hell do never prevail against it, that it possesses the Keys of right confession and faith in Him, that it opens the true and only religion to such as approach with piety, and shuts up and locks every heretical mouth that speaks injustice against the Most High”
Maximus the Confessor,Opuscula theologica et polemica(A.D. 650),in PG(91:137-144)

Ron
 
Sorry my friend. Holy Orthodoxy recognizes our human failings. When pastoral counseling fails, the Church practices mercy, love, compassion, and forgiveness. The innovation comes when the RCC goes back in time to claim that a marriage never occurred freeing the couple to re-marry with a clear conscience while confusing the children.

Now if you would like to talk about innovations. Perhaps you could start threads on: infallibility, purgatory, indulgences, IC, filioque, etc…
Mickey,

As usual you are being illogical. It is not compassion to approve sin and participate in it, in effect to bless adultery. God forgives only after repentance. He doesn’t bless sin while you do it.

Do you really even believe your own nonsense? What if the Orthodox Church, showed “mercy, love, compassion, and forgiveness” for homosexuals and blessed their marriage? Would you think such marriages merciful and valid? Or would they be null?

[Alert: expect an evasion of this direct question by Mickey!]

Ron
 
I expect no admissions from you.
You are a funny man. I have nothing to admit to you. :confused:
Just like I expect no citations from the Fathers to substantiate any of Orthodoxy’s deviations.
Holy Orthodoxy has not deviated. But the RCC had many innovations.
Mickey has spoken!
I see that you can resist the urge to be rude. 😦
I suspect in fact that what you are doing in this Catholic forum is trying to convince yourself that your apostasy is defensible:
You suspect! You suspect? You are not a heart reader. I am here defending my faith–just as you attempt to do. I am permitted on this forum just as you are. I have no apostacy. On the contrary, I feel I have finally come home to the true, correct, Orthodox faith.
“For the extremities of the earth, and all in every part of it who purely and rightly confess the Lord, look directly towards the most holy Roman Church and its confession and faith, as it were a sun of unfailing light, awaiting from it the bright radiance of our fathers, according to what the six inspired and holy Councils have purely and piously decreed, declaring most expressly the symbol of faith. For from the coming down of the Incarnate Word among us, all the churches in every part of the world have possessed that greatest church alone as their base and foundation, seeing that, according to the promise of Christ Our Savior, the gates of hell do never prevail against it, that it possesses the Keys of right confession and faith in Him, that it opens the true and only religion to such as approach with piety, and shuts up and locks every heretical mouth that speaks injustice against the Most High”
Maximus the Confessor,Opuscula theologica et polemica(A.D. 650),in PG(91:137-144)
I love St Maximus. He is a great Orthodox Father! He surely never claimed that the bishop of Rome was the supreme infallible pontiff.

And I tell you…‘You are Peter, Rocky, and on this rock I shall build my Church, and the gates of the underworld will not conquer her. To you shall I give the keys of the kingdom. Whatever you bind on earth shall also be bound in heaven; whatever you loose on earth shall also be loosed in heaven’ (Mt 16:15-19). In Peter, Rocky, we see our attention drawn to the rock. Now the apostle Paul says about the former people, ‘They drank from the spiritual rock that was following them; but the rock was Christ’ (1 Cor 10:4). So this disciple is called Rocky from the rock, like Christian from Christ…Why have I wanted to make this little introduction? In order to suggest to you that in Peter the Church is to be recognized. Christ, you see, built his Church not on a man but on Peter’s confession. What is Peter’s confession? ‘You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ There’s the rock for you, there’s the foundation, there’s where the Church has been built, which the gates of the underworld cannot conquer.

St Augustine
 
God forgives only after repentance.
Amen.
Do you really even believe your own nonsense?
More insults.
What if the Orthodox Church, showed “mercy, love, compassion, and forgiveness” for homosexuals and blessed their marriage?
They do not bless homosexual marriages–but they love homosexuals and will minister to them.
Would you think such marriages merciful and valid? Or would they be null?
But they don’t bless homosexual marriages. You know what they say about inventing scenarios using the phrase “what if”?
[Alert: expect an evasion of this direct question by Mickey!]
Alert: expect continued insults to spew from the keyboard of Ron.
 
Sorry my friend. Holy Orthodoxy recognizes our human failings. When pastoral counseling fails, the Church practices mercy, love, compassion, and forgiveness. The innovation comes when the RCC goes back in time to claim that a marriage never occurred freeing the couple to re-marry with a clear conscience while confusing the children.

Now if you would like to talk about innovations. Perhaps you could start threads on: infallibility, purgatory, indulgences, IC, filioque, etc…
Allowing some use of Birth Control is another Orthodox innovation.
 
Now if you would like to talk about innovations. Perhaps you could start threads on: infallibility, purgatory, indulgences, IC, filioque, etc…
I think it was a Orthodox innovation to reject infallibility, purgatory, indulgences, IC, filiioque.
 
Mick,
Anything comment on this:

"We read in Hermas (about the year 150), “Pastor”, mand. IV, I, 6: "Let him put her (the adulterous wife) away and let the husband abide alone; but if after putting away his wife he shall marry another, he likewise committeth adultery (ed. Funk, 1901). The expression in verse 8, “For the sake of her repentance, therefore, the husband ought not to marry”, does not weaken the absolute command, but it gives the supposed reason of this great command. St. Justine Martyr (d. 176) says (Apolog., I, xv, P.G., VI, 349), plainly and without exception: “He that marrieth her that has been put away by another man committeth adultery.” In like manner Athenagoras (about 177) in his “Legatio pro christ.”, xxxiii (P.G., VI, 965): “For whosoever shall put away his wife and shall marry another, committed adultery”; Tertullian (d. 247), “De monogamiâ”, c, ix (P.L., II, 991): “They enter into adulterous unions even when they do not put away their wives, we are not allowed to even marry although we put our wives away”; Clement of Alexandria (d. 217), “Strom.”, II, xxiii (P.G., VIII, 1096), mentions the ordinance of Holy Scripture in the following words; “You shall not put away your wife except for fornication, and [Holy Scripture] considers as adultery a remarriage while the other of the separated persons survives.” Similar expressions are found in the course of the following centuries both in the Latin and in the Greek Fathers, e.g. St. Basil of Cæsarea, “Epist. can.”, ii, “Ad Amphilochium”, can. xlviii (P.G., XXXII, 732); St. John Chrysostom, “De libello repud.” (P.G., LI, 218); Theodoretus, on I Cor., vii, 39, 40 (P.G., LXXXII, 275); St. Ambrose, “in Luc.”, VIII, v, 18 sqq. (P.L., XV, 1855); St. Jerome, Epist, lx (ad Amand.), n. 3 (P.L., XXII, 562); St. Augustine, “De adulterinis conjugiis”, II, iv (P.L., XL, 473), etc., etc. The occurrences of passages in some Fathers, even among those just quoted, which treat the husband more mildly in case of adultery, or seem to allow him a new marriage after the infidelity of his spouse, does not prove that these expressions are to be understood of the permissibility of a new marriage, but of the lesser canonical penance and of exemption from punishment by civil law. Or if they refer to a command on the part of the Church, the new marriage is supposed to take place after the death of the wife who was dismissed. This permission was mentioned, not without reason, as a concession for the innocent party, because at some periods the Church’s laws in regard to the guilty party forbade forever any further marriage (cf. can. vii of the Council of Compiègne, 757). It is well known that the civil law, even of the Christian emperors, permitted in several cases a new marriage after the separation of the wife. Hence, without contradicting himself, St. Basil could say of the husband, “He is not condemned”, and “He is considered excusable” (ep. clxxxviii, can. ix, and Ep. cxcix, can. xxi, in P.G., XXXII, 678, 721), because he is speaking distinctly of the milder treatment of the husband than of the wife with regard to the canonical penance imposed for adultery. St. Epiphanius, who is especially reproached with teaching that the husband who had put away his wife because of adultery or another crime was allowed by Divine law to marry another (Hæres, lix, 4, in P.G., XLI, 1024), is speaking in reality of a second marriage after the death of the divorced wife, and whilst he declares in general that such a second marriage is allowed, but is less honourable, still he makes the exception in regard to this last part in favour of one who had long been separate from his first wife. The other Fathers of the following centuries, in whose works ambiguous or obscure expressions may be found, are to be explained in like manner.

The practice of the faithful was not indeed always in perfect accord"
 
Mick,
Here is some information that mentions some of the history of annulments.
…That separation and remarriage of the separated parties may not take place merely on account of private convictions of the invalidity of a supposed marriage, but only in consequence of an ecclesiastical judgement was taught by Alexander III and Innocent III in IV Decretal., xix, 3 and II Decretal., xiii, 13. In earlier centuries the summary decision of the bishops sufficed; at present the Constitution of Benedict XIV, “Dei miseratione”, 3 November, 1741, must be followed. This prescribes that in matrimonial cases a “defender of the matrimonial tie” (defensor matrimonii) must be appointed. If the decision is for the validity of the marriage, there need be no appeal in the second instance. The parties can be satisfied with the first decision and continued in married life. If the decision is for the invalidity of the marriage, an appeal must be entered, and sometimes even a second appeal to the court of third instance, so that it is only after two concordant decisions on the invalidity of marriage in question that itcan be regarded as invalid, and the parties are allowed to proceed to another marriage. (Cf. III Conc. plen. Baltim., App. 262 sqq.; Conc. Americ. latin., II, n. 16; Laurentius, “Instit. iuris eccl.”, 2nd ed., n. 696 sqq.; Wernz, “Jusdecretal.”, IV, n. 744 sqq.) Sometimes, however, in missionary countries, Apostolic prefects are permitted to give summary decision of cases in which two concordant opinions of approved theologians or canonists pronounce the invalidity of the marriage to be beyond doubt. Moreover, in cases of evident nullity, because of a manifest impediment of blood-relationship or affinity, of previous marriage, of the absence of form, of lack of baptism on the part of one party, a second sentence of nullity is no longer demanded (Decr. of the Holy Office, 5 June, 1889, and 16 June, 1894. Cf. Acta S. Sedis, XXVII, 141; also Decr. of the Holy Office, 27 March, 1901, Acta S. Sedis, XXXIII, 765). The court of first instance in the process of nullication is the episcopal court of the diocese, of second instance the metropolitan court, of third instance the Roman See. Sometimes, however, Rome designates for the third instance a metropolitan see of the country in question (Laurentius, above, 697, not. 6). No one, however, is prohibited from immediate application in the first instance to the Holy See. Custom reserves to the Holy See matrimonial cases of reigning princes.

In the Decretals the declaration of nullity is treated under the title “De Divortiis”. But it is important that these matters should be carefully distinguished from one another. The lack of exact distinction between the expressions “declaration of invalidity” and “divorce”, and the different treatment of invalid marriages at different periods, may lead to incorrect judgements of ecclesiastical decisions. Decisions of particular Churches are too easily regarded as dissolutions of valid marriages, where in fact they were only declarations of nullity; and even papal decisions, like those of Gregory II communicated to St. Boniface "( martyred 5 June, 755)" and of Alexander III to Bishop of Amiens, are looked on by some writers as permissions granted by the popes to Frankish Churches to dissolve a valid marriage in certain cases. The decision of Gregory II, in the year 726, was embodied in the collection of Gratian (C. xxxii, Q. vii, c. xviii), and is printed in “Mon. Germ. Hist.”, III: Epist. (Epist. Merovingici et Karolini ævi I), p. 276; the decision of Alexander III is given in the Decretals as pars decisa, i.e., a part of the papal letter (IV Decretal., xv, 2) left out in the Decretal itself. In both cases there was question of a declaration of the invalidity of a marriage which was invalid from the very beginning because of antecedent impotence. A certain concession to Frankish Churches was, however, made in these cases. Accoding to Roman custom such supposed husband and wife were not separated, but were bound to live together as brother and sister. In Frankish Churches, however, a separation was pronouced and permission to contract another marriage was allowed to the one not afflicted with absolute impotence. This custom Alexander III granted to the Frankish Churches for the future. If therefore, the union in question is spoken of a legitima conjunctio, or even as a legitimum matrimonium, this is done only on account of the external form of the marriage contract. That in such cases a diriment impediment according to the natural law was present, and an actual marriage was impossible, was well understod by the pope. He says this expressly in the part of his letter that has been embodied in the Decretals (IV Decretal., xv, 2. Cf. Sägmüller, “Die Ehe Heinrichs II” in the Tübingen “Theol. Quartalschr.”, LXXXVII, 1905, 84 sqq.). That in similar cases decision has been given sometimes for separation and sometimes against it, need excite no surprise, for even at the present day the ecclesiastical idea of impotence on the part of the woman is not fully settled (cf. controversy in “The American Eccl. Review”, XXVIII, 51 sqq.).
From the Catholic Encyelopedia 1907
newadvent.org
 
I cannot seem to find any comments from the ECF’s that recommend setting up tribunal systems to nullify the sacrament while telling the children they are legitimate. 🤷
Do you know of any teaching by the early Catholic Church that supports divorce?
 
Do you know of any teaching by the early Catholic Church that supports divorce?
Again, you do not understand. The Holy Orthodox Church does not support divorce–this has been stated so many times–but you will not hear. The Church takes every measure to save the marriage. If the couple cannot stay together out of human weakness, and the marriage fails, the Church with sorrow recognizes that the marriage has failed and that God’s creation has been dissolved.

**“It is not a writ of divorce that dissolves marriage before God, but bad actions.” **
**St Cyril of **Alexandria

It reluctantly accepts this reality, calling the two broken people to repentance. Divorced persons must confess and be absolved before being readmitted to the sacraments of the Church, and they are often given a penance as spiritual medicine. The Church shows love, mercy, compassion, and forgiveness.

The RCC takes it to a legalistic tribunal (for a fee) and declares the sacrament null and void. The children are told that their parents were never married, but they are not illegitimate. :eek:


 
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