Orthodoxy on divorce and annulments

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Sword_Brethren said:
“That separation and remarriage of the separated parties may not take place merely on account of private convictions of the invalidity of a supposed marriage, but only in consequence of an ecclesiastical judgement was taught by Alexander III and Innocent III in IV Decretal., xix, 3 and II Decretal., xiii, 13. In earlier centuries the summary decision of the bishops sufficed.”
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Well, I must say that this sounds like the Orthodox praxis. However, I usually do not comment on newadvent articles because I have found many inaccuracies over the years. Perhaps someone else can comment.
 
Mickey said:
I cannot seem to find any comments from the ECF’s that recommend setting up tribunal systems to nullify the sacrament while telling the children they are legitimate. 🤷
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Mickey,

I know, we’ve been debating this for days and already I’m bringing logic into it. Sorry. But Jesus offered that the only case where a marriage could be anulled was if it was illegitimate. Therefore, logically, there must be some process to determine which marriages were illegit. I know, that logic stuff sure is pesky. But bear with us Catholics. We dig it.

Ron
 
Mickey said:
and then it would be up to the bishop to grant an Ecclesiastical divorce. .
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An Orthodox bishop can choose to give an Ecclesiastical divorce? If the bishop gives an Ecclesiastical divorce, is that not called a divorce?
So the Orthodox Church opposes divorce but at the same time a bishop can give an Ecclesiastical divorce and a divorce person can remarry in the Orthodox Church. I know because man is weak.
 
roncriss said:
Just as there was a point in time when our Eastern brethren decided to no longer follow Christ’s commandments on divorce I can envision some future day when the Orthodox bless homosexual marriages in the name of compassion. Why not? If one can bless adultery as marriage in the name of compassion, why not the same with the sin of homosexual acts? There is no reason not to according to our Orthodox friends.
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You seem to be preoccupied with homosexual issues. :hmmm:

As usual your posts are riddled with insults and uncharitable language. Your animosity toward the Holy Orthodox Church is second to none on these forums. I will pray that you may find peace.

However, I cannot respond to insults and calumny so I will let others correspond with you if they feel so inclined.

May you have a blessed Lent.
 
Mickey said:
Again, you do not understand. The Holy Orthodox Church does not support divorce–this has been stated so many times–but you will not hear. The Church takes every measure to save the marriage. If the couple cannot stay together out of human weakness, and the marriage fails, the Church with sorrow recognizes that the marriage has failed and that God’s creation has been dissolved.
**“It is not a writ of divorce that dissolves marriage before God, but bad actions.” **
**St Cyril of **Alexandria

It reluctantly accepts this reality, calling the two broken people to repentance. Divorced persons must confess and be absolved before being readmitted to the sacraments of the Church, and they are often given a penance as spiritual medicine. The Church shows love, mercy, compassion, and forgiveness.
The RCC takes it to a legalistic tribunal (for a fee) and declares the sacrament null and void. The children are told that their parents were never married, but they are not illegitimate. :eek:
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Does not support divorce??? LOL! They just bless adulterous marriages then. :rotfl: But in fact in order to be multiply-married in Orthodox church one must first get the divorce ecclesiastically approved. :hypno:

The last is a flat out lie. Catholics do not call the children of annulled marriages illegitimate. You have been told this many times. Is the sin of false witness also excused by economia in the Orthodox churches? :tsktsk: Start a new thread!

Ron
 
Sword_Brethren said:
An Orthodox bishop can choose to give an Ecclesiastical divorce? If the bishop gives an Ecclesiastical divorce, is that not called a divorce?
So the Orthodox Church opposes divorce but at the same time a bishop can give an Ecclesiastical divorce and a divorce person can remarry in the Orthodox Church. I know because man is weak.
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Man is indeed fallen and weak.

I will post it only one more time because we are travelling in circles. If after intensive pastoral counseling, the couple decides that they cannot remain married and they file for civil divorce—they can bring it to the bishop. If the bishop decides that there are grounds to grant an Ecclesiastical divorce, he may do so. After repentance and pennance one of the parties could remarry in the Orthodox Church (a penitential service). The Holy Orthodox Church shows love, mercy, compassion, and forgiveness for Her injured children. The Lord will be the ultimate judge. Now you may not like this–but I think it is much more compassionate than a legalistic tribunal that grants divorces (but they call them annulments) by retroactively making the sacrament as if it never occurred.

My brother in Christ:

I know that we will not agree on this issue. And the thread has gone full circle. I appreciate your charity during our discussion.

May you grow deeper and faith and closer to Christ during this season of lent.

Mickey
 
Sword_Brethren said:
Mickey;3282329:
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**“It is not a writ of divorce that dissolves marriage before God, but bad actions.” **
**St Cyril of **Alexandria

You need to give more than one quote.

I suspect that even this is taken badly out of context or distorted. Let’s see if Mickey can even tell us the source.

Ron
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Sword_Brethren said:
Okay, an Orthodox married couple could get a civil divorce and the one of them could go to the Orthodox Church and get married in the Orthodox Church to another mate, right. I think I am being to understand this but I do not agree with it.
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You missed the examination of the cause of the divorce part, not to mention the penance part.
 
Mickey said:
I’ll tell you what—these questions have been answered approximately 200-300 times in this thread. Read the thread. I have become weary of answering the same questions over and over again. If you have a new question after you read the thread–then ask it. Otherwise, enjoy the thread. 👍
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No, Mickey, you have not answered. You have evaded direct questions because you don’t like the implications of your own answers. Unfortunately for you we have all been here and witnessed your evasions. This is only the latest. :tsktsk:

Ron
 
Sword_Brethren said:
Please Mickey or any Orthodox person comment on this. Is seems from this information that declarations of nullity were going on before the break in the Church.
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Maybe in the West. In the East, most of the discussion was on remarriage of widow(er)s, with even the emperors being held to the standard.
 
Mickey said:
Yeah. I am trembling. Look it up.

At this point I can no longer respond (once the discussion resorts to personal insults).

Good day.
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Translation: I cannot answer your direct question because it would result in an admission that Orthodoxy either a) recognizes divorce or b) approves of adulterous multiple marriages.

Asking questions is not an insult. Mickey has just been check-mated by Sword! 👍

Ron
 
roncriss said:
As usual my direct questions were, as predicted, evaded. So why don’tyou just talk at us since you don’t want to discuss. I know you got my point simply because you buthcered my posts to remove the things you can’t address without conceding my point and then evaded answering. Typical and utterly predictable.

We can only assume, since you lost the opportunity to refute it and do not deny it, that you concede an Orthodox priest might use the same logic whereby they bless adulterous marriages and approve homosexual marriages in the name of “economia”.

Similarly, since Orthodox do not (acording to those on this board) accept that any marriages could be null, even that of brother and sister (as conceded by the Orthodox here) that a homosexual marriage too would be considered by them equally as valid. To admit otherwise would be to admit that there are indeed some marriages which are illegitimate as Catholics insist. Just as there was a point in time when our Eastern brethren decided to no longer follow Christ’s commandments on divorce I can envision some future day when the Orthodox bless homosexual marriages in the name of compassion. Why not? If one can bless adultery as marriage in the name of compassion, why not the same with the sin of homosexual acts? There is no reason not to according to our Orthodox friends.

Ron
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No.

A divorcees remarriage can take place, as could a marriage of a widow. Circumstances alone determining what could stand in the way.

A homosexual union, under no circumstances could take place for obvious reasons. From our viewpoint, it would be like saying there were two Fathers in the Holy Trinity.

As for sister and brother: a sister and brother could not present themselves for marriage, although your (?) previous quote of St. Clement only forbids it when they share the same mother:eek: . Your example of one where they didn’t know their blood relationship is another matter entirely, requiring unique pastoring.

In our mind, remarrying an adulterous couple just because the spouse died is blessing adultery without penance. Yet you seem fine with it.

Direct enough?
 
Mickey said:
Well, I must say that this sounds like the Orthodox praxis. However, I usually do not comment on newadvent articles because I have found many inaccuracies over the years. Perhaps someone else can comment.
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Sounds like binding and losening to me.
 
roncriss said:
Mickey,

I know, we’ve been debating this for days and already I’m bringing logic into it. Sorry. But Jesus offered that the only case where a marriage could be anulled was if it was illegitimate. Therefore, logically, there must be some process to determine which marriages were illegit. I know, that logic stuff sure is pesky. But bear with us Catholics. We dig it.

Ron
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Jesus didn’t speak of anullments at all. So he didn’t offer any cases. Your retranslation of the term porneia doesn’t change that.
 
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