Orthodoxy to Catholicism

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Thanks for that little jab.

Actually, the concept of infallibility as posited in many Catholic and Protestant circles is foreign to Orthodoxy. You can keep it.

And since you’ve got your infallibility so neatly hammered down, would you can to tell me how many dogmatically binding ex-cathedra statements that the Papal office had issued? Your theologians can’t even agree on that. So please keep your completely unearned triumphalism to yourself. Pax.
I don’t know why everyone jumps to the papacy when the question of infallibility comes up. The Church is infallible, by virtue of Christ’s promise that the gates of Hades will not prevail. This simply means that the Holy Spirit will never allow the Church to completely lose sight of her Sacred Tradition (even if large numbers of faithful and even bishops do at times) nor will He ever allow the Church to promulgate a binding heretical dogma. Infallibility is in no sense the same as inspiration. What Protestants believe the Church is infallible? I have never come across that.

We all agree that the popes have rarely exercised the Church’s infallibility. The vast majority of binding dogmas were promulgated by ecumenical councils, so any fruitful discussion of infallibility needs to start with councils not the popes. Furthermore, we believe that the ordinary magisterium - that is, the consistent witness of all the bishops down through history - is infallible. For example, women’s ordination. No dogma has ever been promulgated condemning women’s ordination, but we are bound to reject it for as Pope St John Paul reminded us, the Church has consistently, everywhere and always, taught that she has no authority to confer ordination upon women. It doesn’t matter how many times the pope has exercised infallibility…we as Catholics are bound by all that the Church teaches, which is not limited to dogmas. Orthodoxy recognizes the dogmas of the first 7 councils, but your faith is not limited to those dogmas. It is the same in Catholicism.
 
I don’t know why everyone jumps to the papacy when the question of infallibility comes up. The Church is infallible, by virtue of Christ’s promise that the gates of Hades will not prevail. This simply means that the Holy Spirit will never allow the Church to completely lose sight of her Sacred Tradition (even if large numbers of faithful and even bishops do at times) nor will He ever allow the Church to promulgate a binding heretical dogma. Infallibility is in no sense the same as inspiration. What Protestants believe the Church is infallible? I have never come across that.

We all agree that the popes have rarely exercised the Church’s infallibility. The vast majority of binding dogmas were promulgated by ecumenical councils, so any fruitful discussion of infallibility needs to start with councils not the popes. Furthermore, we believe that the ordinary magisterium - that is, the consistent witness of all the bishops down through history - is infallible. For example, women’s ordination. No dogma has ever been promulgated condemning women’s ordination, but we are bound to reject it for as Pope St John Paul reminded us, the Church has consistently, everywhere and always, taught that she has no authority to confer ordination upon women. It doesn’t matter how many times the pope has exercised infallibility…we as Catholics are bound by all that the Church teaches, which is not limited to dogmas. Orthodoxy recognizes the dogmas of the first 7 councils, but your faith is not limited to those dogmas. It is the same in Catholicism.
Bishop Vincent Ferrer Gasser, in his relatio at Vatican I said:
030. But some will persist and say: there remains, therefore, the duty of the Pontiff - indeed most grave in its kind – of adhering to the means apt for discerning the truth, and, although this matter is not strictly dogmatic, it is, nevertheless, intimately connected with dogma. For we define: the dogmatic judgments of the Roman Pontiff are infallible. Therefore let us also define the form to be used by the Pontiff in such a judgment. It seems to me that this was the mind of some of the most reverend fathers as they spoke from this podium. But, most eminent and reverend fathers, this proposal simply cannot be accepted because we are not dealing with something new here. Already thousands and thousands of dogmatic judgments have gone forth from the Apostolic See; where is the law which prescribed the form to be observed in such judgments?

sites.google.com/site/thetaboriclight/official_relatio
 
Because at least Catholicism the priests do not encourage the faithful to spit on and beat people for it.
Are you sure about that? Who is encouraging people to beat homosexuals? I’ve heard many Catholics praise Russia for it’s defense of traditional values, which is all too lacking in modern American society. In fact the Russian Orthodox Church is so clear in promoting traditional values that it makes many Americans uneasy. I think you should closely study the teachings of both Churches and make your decision based on that.
 
Fun thing about Catholicism, it’s universal. I have a huge family all over the world anywhere I go. As you know there are sinners all around, but the seat of Peter is irreplaceable. It’s unfortunate that people in other Christian Churches cannot appreciate the influence and love that pours out from people like Pope Francis or Pope John Paul II. 👍
 
I don’t know why everyone jumps to the papacy when the question of infallibility comes up. The Church is infallible, by virtue of Christ’s promise that the gates of Hades will not prevail. This simply means that the Holy Spirit will never allow the Church to completely lose sight of her Sacred Tradition (even if large numbers of faithful and even bishops do at times) nor will He ever allow the Church to promulgate a binding heretical dogma. Infallibility is in no sense the same as inspiration. What Protestants believe the Church is infallible? I have never come across that.

We all agree that the popes have rarely exercised the Church’s infallibility. The vast majority of binding dogmas were promulgated by ecumenical councils, so any fruitful discussion of infallibility needs to start with councils not the popes. Furthermore, we believe that the ordinary magisterium - that is, the consistent witness of all the bishops down through history - is infallible. For example, women’s ordination. No dogma has ever been promulgated condemning women’s ordination, but we are bound to reject it for as Pope St John Paul reminded us, the Church has consistently, everywhere and always, taught that she has no authority to confer ordination upon women. It doesn’t matter how many times the pope has exercised infallibility…we as Catholics are bound by all that the Church teaches, which is not limited to dogmas. Orthodoxy recognizes the dogmas of the first 7 councils, but your faith is not limited to those dogmas. It is the same in Catholicism.
I hate to contradict you, but Pope St.John Paul II was speaking infallibly when he said

Ordinatio Sacerdotalis said:
4. Although the teaching that priestly ordination is to be reserved to men alone has been preserved by the constant and universal Tradition of the Church and firmly taught by the Magisterium in its more recent documents, at the present time in some places it is nonetheless considered still open to debate, or the Church’s judgment that women are not to be admitted to ordination is considered to have a merely disciplinary force.
Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful.
Invoking an abundance of divine assistance upon you, venerable brothers, and upon all the faithful, I impart my apostolic blessing.

The Popes have certainly spoken infallibly more frequently than you suggest. Even Canonizations are infallible declarations of the dogmatic fact that the person in question is in heaven.
 
Hi everyone,

I am in the process of exploring becoming Catholic. I was originally Anglican but became Orthodox shortly after I turned 18. A raft of problems led to me leaving the church in my early 20s but I am now looking to come back. While a lot of Orthodoxy still speaks to me I find myself dissatisfied with the nationalism and politics rife within the church as well as the open hatred towards LGBT people in Russia.

I am at a point in my life where I am very aware of my need for God and the limitations of my own insights into the world. I am prepared, as an LGBT person to submit my life to God and the Church in order to be within it. This is not easy and scares me but I want and need to be part of a sacramental church again.
Dear madam,

I usually don’t post to much here, but your message has certainly put me into a great deal of distress. While I am certainly not going to try to convince you to stick with Orthodox Christianity over Catholicism as that is not my place, I do feel rather compelled to tell you that your message is rife with a great deal of inaccuracies.

The whole “Orthodox are too tribal and primitive, Catholicism truly is the only universal church” is a rather old canard. What you’re seeing now is a Catholicism that has become deeply entrenched within the culture of the Anglosphere so that it seems universal with no particular culture attached to it. Do you not think that fifty years and onwards that Catholicism was not seen as a tribal and primitive Christianity? Even now in the year 2014 different ethnicities might be the majority in one Catholic parish and be perceived as controlling it. Why, my own Irish Catholic Grandmother and her family fought bitterly to keep their parish named “Saint Clare” instead of letting the newcomer Hispanic congregants change the name to “Our Lady of Guadalupe.” Likewise, in countries where neither Catholicism nor Orthodoxy are deeply entrenched within society, such as Sweden, Denmark, or Finland, Catholicism is just as nationalistic and unwelcoming as Orthodoxy might be perceived to be. A native Swede, a Chaldean, or a Croat might not feel so welcome at a predominantly Polish congregation where the liturgy is celebrated not in Swedish, but in Polish. And how does any parish anywhere separate itself from one culture? Do you think that a predominantly white, Anglo-Saxon New Zealander parish is somehow beyond nationalism and a clash of cultures? Far from it!

The same goes for politics. The Orthodox Church has a multitude of problems on every given day, but if you think that running away from these problems of any nature into the arms of another Church is going to do you any good, then you are surely mistaken. The Catholic Church has just as many problems as my own Church, if not more due to its sheer size. These problems that we face are terrifying, literally terrifying, and they can shake even the strongest of peoples’ faiths. Myself, a humble sinner who makes dozens of mistakes a day was brought to tears when a group of people on the Internet formally wrote down every problem my own Church was facing, and I too felt the need to run to flee what I saw as wreckage to the Oriental Orthodox Church.

But a very wise woman who is an English convert to Coptic Orthodoxy told me what I am telling you now: running from a problem will do you no good, and that you need to trust in the Lord to see you and your fellow Man through it. Every Church has its own problems on a day-to-day basis: if you want to join a Church that’s not plagued with worldly ills, then you better make your own church where you sit at home alone every given Sunday because you sitting on a couch alone is the only place you’ll find a Church without issue.

Finally, my last point is this: do you honestly think that Putin’s Russia is somehow the bastion of Orthodoxy and our leader of example on the world stage? I laugh at that very notion! If not even One Bishop to Rule Them All can guarantee that all his followers will be upstart moral-figures, then how do you think our Church with its hundreds of equal bishops could possibly hope to do the same? For every Orthodox Christian spitting on a defenseless person there is an Orthodox Christian in a soup kitchen or far from home in a land not their own preaching the word of God. If you want to only see the bad in one country and not the good in all country, then I think you’re either mislead, headstrong, or scared. I myself am all three of those things, but I absolutely refuse to give in to the temptation of despair. You might be pleased to know that there is a group called Axios out there, founded by LGBT Orthodox Christians, who has taken it upon themselves to be the Church’s emissaries to the gay community, and that there are most definitely gay Orthodox Christians out there who fight for their own salvation as the Church militant just like we all do. You can read about their DC chapter here: axiosdconline.tripod.com/ If you somehow think that Catholicism will be any different, then I admire your optimism.

You seem to have made up your mind about joining Catholicism, and so be it. This will be the last I say of it to you. But if you somehow think that we Orthodox Christians are all tribalistic homophobes and that running away from us you’ll find your salvation, then I want to tell you that you are gravely mistaken. If you never want to speak to me again, that’s no problem at all; but if you still feel like you have a word to say to me about all of this and how you feel, then I’d love to speak with you about it at constantinecesak@gmail.com.

Thank you, and God bless. I will pray for you and I ask that you will pray for me, a sinner trying to find his way in the world.
 
I’ve always found this a little confusing. Wouldn’t her original Anglican baptism take precedence over her Orthodox chrismation as far as entering the Catholic Church is concerned? If that were the case, she would be assigned canonically to the Roman Catholic Church, no? Where are Vico and Aramis when you need them? :)🙂

In Christ,
MinM
The canons specify that Ritual Church attaches at valid baptism. Canonically, the OP probably is ascribed to the Roman Church, as the Anglican Church is still Roman Rite, and of Anglican Use, but not in communion and lacking valid clergy.

The Orthodox Chrismation is valid even if the Anglican baptism isn’t, so it’s just a matter of confession, profession of the faith, and acceptance of the Magisterium, and a bit of paperwork.

You should get in touch with a canon lawyer, tho’, to get the details right.
 
I’ve always found this a little confusing. Wouldn’t her original Anglican baptism take precedence over her Orthodox chrismation as far as entering the Catholic Church is concerned? If that were the case, she would be assigned canonically to the Roman Catholic Church, no? Where are Vico and Aramis when you need them? :)🙂

In Christ,
MinM
See Post #17. The Christian church or ecclesial community is determined by baptism. The Catholic Church sui iuris by baptism and the guardian (for an infant) or by choice when baptised 14 or older.
 
Hi everyone,

I am in the process of exploring becoming Catholic. I was originally Anglican but became Orthodox shortly after I turned 18. A raft of problems led to me leaving the church in my early 20s but I am now looking to come back. While a lot of Orthodoxy still speaks to me I find myself dissatisfied with the nationalism and politics rife within the church as well as the open hatred towards LGBT people in Russia.

I am at a point in my life where I am very aware of my need for God and the limitations of my own insights into the world. I am prepared, as an LGBT person to submit my life to God and the Church in order to be within it. This is not easy and scares me but I want and need to be part of a sacramental church again.

So I have got as far as talking to a priest and explaining my story. Hopefully I will begin RCIA soon. I already have a good understanding of theology and praxis but feel that having been away a number of years this would be of benefit. The priest I spoke to wasn’t entirely sure of HOW I would join though. My understanding is that if I have been confirmed into the Orthodox church I do not need to be reconfirmed as Orthodox sacraments are valid but do need to make a statement of faith. Is this right?
I"m not sure I understand the reasoning involved here. Egypt is a much, much harder place to be gay than Russia, but does that say anything about its native church? Ethiopia is probably not the most gay-friendly place on the planet, but can we say anything about the Orthodox Tewahedo faith as a result? Probably for you as an LGBT person these issues are especially sensitive, and of course your local church (to the extent that any such matter were to come up between you and your confessor, which is nobody else’s business) should likewise be sensitive to you in your struggles, but I do find it odd that someone who has stated that they are turned off by the nationalism and politics found in Eastern Orthodoxy is looking into Catholicism as an antidote to those problems. Do you expect the Roman communion to be less involved in politics, and in what wider society sees as “anti-gay” politics at that (i.e., opposing gay marriage, gay adoption, and the normalization of homosexual behavior as a legitimate alternative to God-ordained heterosexual marriage and reproduction)? I’m not going to speak for Catholics here, but I am afraid that you may find yourself dissatisfied again, as this is likely a case of “the grass is always greener”, rather than having solid doctrinal reasons for abandoning your current faith in favor of another.

Politically speaking, I am probably closer to the mainstream liberal (or at least left of center) positions of many Roman Catholics (here I am speaking of my own country, the United States; I do not know how it is in your country), rather than my own Coptic Orthodox Church. That is not any kind of reason to leave it. The only reasons to reconsider or abandon one’s current membership in a given church is because of irresolvable disagreement with core, unchangeable doctrines of your current confession. Everything else is just window dressing and personal preference. Sorry if this comes off as harsh or dismissive, but there are enough churches out there already (or organizations playing church) that exist at the leisure of their members and shifting political opinion and hence are not fit arks of salvation, as Christ’s Church most certainly is. I’m not sure that you’re giving the Eastern Orthodox Church or the Roman Catholic Church their fair shake by approaching the matter in the way that your posts suggest you are.
 
I am at a point in my life where I am very aware of my need for God and the limitations of my own insights into the world. I am prepared, as an LGBT person to submit my life to God and the Church in order to be within it. This is not easy and scares me but I want and need to be part of a sacramental church again.
My prayers are with you. :gopray:
 
Picking a church to attend isn’t something to take lightly. It isn’t about what YOU want, but it is about who holds the correct position. Worldly desires are the least of our concerns - our salvation is at stake.

And remember, there will be people who do not uphold the teachings of their church and who will make you feel unwelcome. Just pray for them, as hard as that may be. If you are deciding between Orthodox and Catholic, your best bet would be to research the Great Schism and the corresponding accusations of heresy, and decide whose dogma is more sound, rather than simply looking at how Vladimir Putin treats homosexuals.
 
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