Osas 1Jn2:19 how do I defend aginst this verse

[Odell]

I know how to defend aginst once saved always saved. but how do I explaine (1Jn2:19) “they went out from us, but they were not really of our number; if they had been, they would have remained with us.”

this verse seem to sugest that if someone seems to have falling they must not of ever been saved in the fist place

how do I defen this verse?

 

[Thal59]

I know how to defend aginst once saved always saved. but how do I explaine (1Jn2:19) “they went out from us, but they were not really of our number; if they had been, they would have remained with us.”

this verse seem to sugest that if someone seems to have falling they must not of ever been saved in the fist place

how do I defen this verse?

John is speaking of false teachers who apparently tried to seperate the father and son; possibly the way the Jehovah’s Witnesses do today. Notice verse 23. “No one who disowns the son has the father. He who confesses the son has the father also.”

When their personal or private interpretations chaffed with what the apostles taught, they decided to leave the flock - probably to promote their personal interpretations elsewhere as the truth.

John is saying that if they had been one with us… i.e. possessed the spirit of truth, they would still be one with us rather than departing to follow their errant philosophy. Therefore…

“As for you, let that which you heard from the beginning abide in you.” portion of verse 24.

These false teachers do not have the spirit, do not fully understand the teaching of the Gospels, and because they do not have the spirit of unity - they depart. Those who are of the body will have the spirit and understand the teachings which was handed down from the beginning.

Thal59

 

[Odell]

John is saying that if they had been one with us… i.e. possessed the spirit of truth, they would still be one with us rather than departing to follow their errant philosophy. Therefore…
Thal59

but isnt this still sugesting that once you are saved you are always saved.

I dont beleive in osas. this is a verse that I came accros though that I have troble with.

 

[NotWorthy]

Then you’d have to explain St. Paul’s numerous exhortations to Christians to strive to hold onto the truth which “we have taught you”.

Why strive to hold on if you’re OSAS’d?

 

[Odell]

Then you’d have to explain St. Paul’s numerous exhortations to Christians to strive to hold onto the truth which “we have taught you”.

yes I know but I cant explain this one passage. it has to be interprited wrong but how are we to interprit this verse.

 

[DCD]

It seems that St. John is teaching that these false teachers were once members of The Church. They are now in error because they are outside The Church. Verse 20 is the key “you have been annointed by the Holy One and you all know.” Verse 19 is twisted into OSAS by well meaning christians who are not in full communion with the Body of Christ and do not have the benfit of the Fullness of Divinely Revealed Truth.

Peace,
DCD

 

[But_for_Grace]

ironically, this verse warns against those who are trying to use it for their own purposes.

 

[APigeon]

I know how to defend aginst once saved always saved. but how do I explaine (1Jn2:19) “they went out from us, but they were not really of our number; if they had been, they would have remained with us.”

this verse seem to sugest that if someone seems to have falling they must not of ever been saved in the fist place

how do I defen this verse?

Why defend against what the Word of God says?
Once someone is saved by accepting Christ as their Savior, it is irrreversible because, “I gave them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.” John 10:28
When Paul speaks of hanging on to the end, he is referring to rewards in Heaven beyond salvation that are based on good works. Salvation itself has already been secured at the cross of Christ for those who believe. Jesus has gauranteed this.

 

[Sabda]

Do you believe in osas?

If our salvation is guaranteed then why are they so many verses talking about persevering to the end? Why does St. Paul talk about working out our salvation in “fear and trembling”. If our salvation is a guaranteed then why do we need to work at all? Why not just kick back and relax?

“I gave them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.”

Nothing in that verse says that they can not walk away of their own free will.

When Paul speaks of hanging on to the end, he is referring to rewards in Heaven beyond salvation that are based on good works.

I’m sorry but that is not making any sense to me, care to elaborate?

 

[Catholic_Dude]

I know how to defend aginst once saved always saved. but how do I explaine (1Jn2:19) “they went out from us, but they were not really of our number; if they had been, they would have remained with us.”

this verse seem to sugest that if someone seems to have falling they must not of ever been saved in the fist place

how do I defen this verse?

First some context:
18 Children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come; therefore we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us. 20 But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all know. 21 I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and know that no lie is of the truth. 22 Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son has the Father. He who confesses the Son has the Father also.
The “THEY” in v19 is talking about “anti-Christs” that is defined in v22 as those who reject Jesus yet pretend to be part of the group. Context is very clear and helpful here. Now look at the start of this chapter:
1 My little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and he is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. 3 And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He who says “I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly love for God is perfected. **By this we may be sure that we are in him: **6 he who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.
Note this is talking about the actions of individuals, they must keep His Commandments, you know you are in good standing as long as you keep them. Note John doesnt accuse them of being an anti-christ if they dont keep the commandments. A person can be a member of the church his whole life and later sin and be sent to hell. John mentions the need for us to “keep His commandments” over and over again in this letter.

 

[DCD]

“he who eats the flesh of the Son of man and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

Peace,
DCD

 

[Liberian]

Odell,

Hello and welcome to the Catholic Answers Forums. Or if you’re a victim of the Great Crash of '06, welcome back!

The verse you cite, while it may appear to defend once-saved-always-saved, actually cuts the heart out of any application the believers in that doctrine might have. If you can appear by all evidences to be saved, and feel in your heart that you are saved, and then find out later that you were never really saved, then you have no assurance of salvation at all. They may quibble about whether or not one was “saved”–and the word itself can mean three or four different things–they have lost any reason to believe the doctrine.

• Liberian

 

[Lillith]

Passage 2 Timothy 2:11-13:

11Here is a trustworthy saying:

If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
13if we are faithless,
he will remain faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.

 

[Church_Militant]

I know how to defend aginst once saved always saved. but how do I explaine (1Jn2:19) “they went out from us, but they were not really of our number; if they had been, they would have remained with us.”

this verse seem to sugest that if someone seems to have falling they must not of ever been saved in the fist place

how do I defen this verse?

Did you hear the CA Live radio program from Monday where Matt Slick (from CARM. ) called in and tried to assert this with Teresa Tomeo and John Martignoni? It’s on this past Monday’s show.) They showed that it’s just one verse out of the context of great many verses in the New Testament and that understood in the total context of the New Testament this verse isn’t inconsistent with what we believe. In fact…OSAS really doesn’t wash in context.

I suggest that you download and listen to John Martignoni’s MP3 Bible study called Once Saved, Always Saved and print out the Bible study notes that you’ll find HERE.
That should pretty well clear it and and set you up to be able to respond to this unscriptural doctrine. CA alos has a good article on this in the salvation section of its online library called Assurance of Salvation.
Pax tecum,

 

[Thal59]

but isnt this still sugesting that once you are saved you are always saved.

I dont beleive in osas. this is a verse that I came accros though that I have troble with.

In essence, the passage has nothing to do with being saved. It speaks of false teachers who can be identified by the fact that they leave the body because they are adhering to personal teachings that do not jive with what the apostles taught.

The problem with OSAS is that it is technically true. Once you have died, been judged, purged if necessary, and your name is read from the book of life, yes, you are saved and it can never be taken away. Once you are saved, you are always saved.

The problem is that Protestants who promote the OSAS theory try to claim that saved status now; regardless of any future sins or even outright apostasy. The danger with this delusion is that if you believe you are irrevocably saved, and it should just so happen that you are not saved, then you will never “work out your salvation in fear and trembling” as St. Paul warns us to do because you would never deem it necessary to work out what you already think you have and cannot lose.

Thal59

 

[Odell]

First some context:
18 Children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come; therefore we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us. 20 But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all know. 21 I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and know that no lie is of the truth. 22 Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son has the Father. He who confesses the Son has the Father also.
The “THEY” in v19 is talking about “anti-Christs” that is defined in v22 as those who reject Jesus yet pretend to be part of the group. Context is very clear and helpful here. Now look at the start of this chapter:
1 My little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and he is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. 3 And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He who says “I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly love for God is perfected. **By this we may be sure that we are in him: **6 he who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.
Note this is talking about the actions of individuals, they must keep His Commandments, you know you are in good standing as long as you keep them. Note John doesnt accuse them of being an anti-christ if they dont keep the commandments. A person can be a member of the church his whole life and later sin and be sent to hell. John mentions the need for us to “keep His commandments” over and over again in this letter.

this is what I was looking for. I knew the verse was interprited wrong.

I did listen to that show on monday and John didnt do much justice on this verse. I love John, i recon he was put on the spot. what I wanted him to do was explain how he took the verse out of context instead of just throwing other verses out at the other guy.

now I know how to deffend aginst this verse and I want ever be put on the spot.

YOU JUST CANT EXPLAIN OSAS! YOU MUST TAKE THE BIBLE AS A HOLE1 AND NOT INDIVIDUAL VERSE TO MAKE THEM FIT YOUR OWN DOCTRINE.

 

[Philthy]

I know how to defend aginst once saved always saved. but how do I explaine (1Jn2:19) “they went out from us, but they were not really of our number; if they had been, they would have remained with us.”

this verse seem to sugest that if someone seems to have falling they must not of ever been saved in the fist place

how do I defen this verse?

The way you “defend” is to state the obvious: this verse does not explicitly say that once you are saved you are forever saved - that is simply one interpretation and it is a wrong interpretation. We know it to be wrong because it contradicts the many other verses
which speak of believers who fell, the many verses which include admonitions to believers to avoid sin “I urge you beloved, to keep away from worldly desires which wage war against the soul” , the very direct statement by Christ in Matt 6:15 that “if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your father forgive you yours”(this must continue throughout life and is never finished until you die). Its very simple: the verse does not explicitly state what you wish it to state, and what you wish it state directly contradicts other clear teachings in Scripture. Period. The reason you have trouble accepting that truth is because you have other beliefs upon which OSAS is predicated which are also false, BTW.