OSAS - a new perspective

[Pitcharan]

Dear Friends,
I have been reading and responding to the stream of posts that flow every week on this hotly being debated subject. I find that most of us tend to digress into a pro- and anti-calvinist debate. Can’t we set aside Calvinism and focus purely on merit, and seek the truth concerning these beliefs:

• Salvation is pre-destined
• Saved ones can be damned later
• Warnings against spiritual complacency imply chances of damnation
• Warnings against complacency imply only avoidable tribulation
• Purgatory has to be true if OSAS is true
• OSAS has to be true if purgatory is true

 

[Newbie2]

Well, Calvinism is the leading protestant proponent of predestination, no?

**Salvation is pre-destined **

Not from a Catholic viewpoint. Predestination negates free-will. The foreknowledge of the Almighty is not equivalent of him predestining one to salvation or not

**Saved ones can be damned later **

This would seem to be an oxymornic statement. If one is saved, by definition one cannot be damned later. From a Catholic perspective, one is not damned, they damn themselves by rejecting Christ and his Gospel, and they are not saved, they are being saved.

**Warnings against spiritual complacency imply chances of damnation **

…are evidence that OSAS in it’s strictest interpretation is a non sequitur.

**Warnings against complacency imply only avoidable tribulation **

If OSAS is valid, there should be no warnings against complacency whatsoever, regardless of the stated consequences.

**Purgatory has to be true if OSAS is true **

Does OSAS imply the need for purification, i.e. does “saved” mean one is spared from the possible suffering in the process of purification?

**OSAS has to be true if purgatory is true **

Non Sequitur. Purgatory if true has no bearing on the concept of OSAS as a truth.

 

[JRKH]

Dear Friends,
I have been reading and responding to the stream of posts that flow every week on this hotly being debated subject. I find that most of us tend to digress into a pro- and anti-calvinist debate. Can’t we set aside Calvinism and focus purely on merit, and seek the truth concerning these beliefs:

• Salvation is pre-destined
• Saved ones can be damned later
• Warnings against spiritual complacency imply chances of damnation
• Warnings against complacency imply only avoidable tribulation
• Purgatory has to be true if OSAS is true
• OSAS has to be true if purgatory is true

this is interesting, but I have determined an even easier Truth concerning OSAS.

We humans cannot know if another is predestined to be saved.
Further, We humans cannot even know that WE are destined to be saved.
Therefore OSAS and “Predestination” makes for interesting “discussion” it has no bearing on our daily faith walk. - None whatsoever.

We DO know what Christ has commanded us.
We must do this to the best of our ability and then hope in God’s mercy.
This DOES effect our daily faith walk.

Peace
James

 

[Pitcharan]

Well, Calvinism is the leading protestant proponent of predestination, no?

Let us not discuss calvinism please.

**Salvation is pre-destined **

Not from a Catholic viewpoint. Predestination negates free-will. The foreknowledge of the Almighty is not equivalent of him predestining one to salvation or not

Let us seek truth without pre-conceived ideas.

• Salvation makes sense only if there has been a loss.
• There can be a loss only from what was owned.
• Now we can say with confidence in simple words that GOD’S OWN WERE LOST AWHILE AND HE IS GATHERING THEM AGAIN.
• If they were God’s own, then undoubtedly the term pre-destined does make sense.

**Saved ones can be damned later **

This would seem to be an oxymornic statement. If one is saved, by definition one cannot be damned later.

For understanding sake let us consider a temporal parallel. Your son took to crime and landed behind bars. You rescued him, rehabilitated him and restored him to the normal state before he took to crime. You also hoped that he would have learnt his lesson. He being an adult and free to live his own life, can you ensure that he doesn’t go back to crime?

From a Catholic perspective, one is not damned, they damn themselves by rejecting Christ and his Gospel, and they are not saved, they are being saved.

This is obviously true in the temporal world. If our children choose to damn themselves, we cannot stop them, though we will do our very best by counseling, taking the help of psycharists etc. Then when all hope is lost we turn to God, the help of the helpless (besaharon ka sahara in urdu). Our religion taught us to trust God for whom nothing is impossible.

**Warnings against spiritual complacency imply chances of damnation **

…are evidence that OSAS in it’s strictest interpretation is a non sequitur.

Shall we take a walk down memory lane and remember the God of our ancestors, who is slow to anger and rich in mercy. Has He not affirmed that His capacity to forgive is infinite (as far as the East is from the West)? Has He not categorically stated that His thoughts are infinitely higher than ours (as high as the heavens are above the earth)?

Now, shall we recall from recent memory, when His Son was with us to tell us more clearly about the Father and teach us how to seek Him. Didn’t our Lord assert that none of His can be lost? Did He not assure us that His Father will not let anyone snatch away from His hands, those He gave the Son to be His own?

Can we now say with confidence that there is no question of being damned. Is it not what St. Paul already told us: There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus

**Warnings against complacency imply only avoidable tribulation **

Sounds very true; tribulation - yes; damnation NO.

If OSAS is valid, there should be no warnings against complacency whatsoever, regardless of the stated consequences

Why not? We were told at the very outset, we are saved, we belong to Him and of all the peoples we will be the apple of His eye provided we abide. And if we don’t. then woe to us. This was made crystal clear right in the very beginning. The whole of salvation history is all about tribulations of the disobedient and stiff-necked.

**Purgatory has to be true if OSAS is true **

Have we forgotten what our Scriptures taught. That our destination is God’s house, but before we get there we will be refined like silver and tested like gold? Does this always happen during our lifetime? Do we see all believers getting refined like silver before breathing their last? If not, how is the purification going to be completed. The only answer is purgatory.

Does OSAS imply the need for purification, i.e. does “saved” mean one is spared from the possible suffering in the process of purification?

We never heard of such a thing. Recall what happened to one of God’s most favorite ones - David. He wept and repented for his sin and God forgave him. But the suffering for the sin had to be borne exactly as God decreedThe sword will not depart from your house. Whatever you did will happen to you, and that too by a member of your own household. What you did in secret will be done in broad daylight.

Now that “saved” ones cannot be lost and if they are unfit to go near God as they are not “dazzling white” which is necessary, what then is the answer. Only one thing comes to our mind - suffering. Recall what St. Paul taught: You must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God

**OSAS has to be true if purgatory is true **

Seems like, let’s see.

Non Sequitur. Purgatory if true has no bearing on the concept of OSAS as a truth.

NO sir! why should we be purged at all. We can be thrown into Hell as damned.

But if purgatory is true, there has to be a purpose - to cleanse us sufficiently to live eternally with God. Therefore, if there is a purgatory, it is there because we have been saved and bound to go to God and we cannot go there unless we are “dazzling white”

 

[RoryMcKenzie56]

Hi pitcharan,

I am Catholic now and a former adherent to the teaching of eternal security of the believer/once saved always saved. I have made the same observation as you in regards to their necessary belief in a form of purgatory. Those who believe in eternal security affirm that we will be sinless and completely sanctified in heaven. They also affirm that we are sinful and our sanctification is usually incomplete on earth. They don’t believe in the same purgatory as us, but they have to believe in the concept. God cleanses them during some process between death and the receiving of their rewards. How much time does it take? Is it painful? These questions are left unanswered, but assuredly, it is accurate to note that they believe in purgatory too.

If we are speaking with an Evangelical, I think it can be helpful for them to see from where our concept comes. The difference between us is less than they usually imagine. They are dimly aware that we Catholics have a developed, systematic view of the matter that usually seems strange. It will be less strange if we explain it to them from their own point of view, which also admits, no demands, a post-mortal cleansing which they do not have to call purgatory.

Rory

 

[Pitcharan]

Hi pitcharan,

I am Catholic now and a former adherent to the teaching of eternal security of the believer/once saved always saved. I have made the same observation as you in regards to their necessary belief in a form of purgatory. Those who believe in eternal security affirm that we will be sinless and completely sanctified in heaven. They also affirm that we are sinful and our sanctification is usually incomplete on earth. They don’t believe in the same purgatory as us, but they have to believe in the concept. God cleanses them during some process between death and the receiving of their rewards. How much time does it take? Is it painful? These questions are left unanswered, but assuredly, it is accurate to note that they believe in purgatory too.

If we are speaking with an Evangelical, I think it can be helpful for them to see from where our concept comes. The difference between us is less than they usually imagine. They are dimly aware that we Catholics have a developed, systematic view of the matter that usually seems strange. It will be less strange if we explain it to them from their own point of view, which also admits, no demands, a post-mortal cleansing which they do not have to call purgatory.

Rory

Thanks Rory. Your’e right. The need of the hour is unifiying all believers by finding the way forward for convergence. I think CAF offers an excellent platform and pray to the HS to lead all of us to the undisputable truth and prepare us to receive Jesus when He comes again.
Regards
Pitcharan

 

[JRKH]

Hi pitcharan,

I am Catholic now and a former adherent to the teaching of eternal security of the believer/once saved always saved. I have made the same observation as you in regards to their necessary belief in a form of purgatory. Those who believe in eternal security affirm that we will be sinless and completely sanctified in heaven. They also affirm that we are sinful and our sanctification is usually incomplete on earth. They don’t believe in the same purgatory as us, but they have to believe in the concept. God cleanses them during some process between death and the receiving of their rewards. How much time does it take? Is it painful? These questions are left unanswered, but assuredly, it is accurate to note that they believe in purgatory too.

If we are speaking with an Evangelical, I think it can be helpful for them to see from where our concept comes. The difference between us is less than they usually imagine. They are dimly aware that we Catholics have a developed, systematic view of the matter that usually seems strange. It will be less strange if we explain it to them from their own point of view, which also admits, no demands, a post-mortal cleansing which they do not have to call purgatory.

Rory

Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that they believe in “purgation” (the act) rather than “purgatory” (a place).
The evangelical might say, “Yes we are purified, but it is instantanious and there is no need for an “intermediary stop” in some ‘non-biblical’, purification place called purgatory.”

Peace
James

 

[IHeartAquinas]

The difference between the Protestant view of OSAS and the Catholic view of ongoing salvation can be utilized with a metaphor of a hole:

You are walking along and you see a sign warning of a hole ahead. You continue walking with knowledge of this hole. When you approach it, circumstances make it so you cannot avoid falling in.

OSAS: If OSAS is true, then you fall into the hole and someone pulls you out, putting you on the other side. No more holes, no more falling.

Non-OSAS: If OSAS is not true, then you fall into the hole and someone pulls you out, but then before you can get to the other side, you fall in again, and again, and again, and again. But that someone is always there to help you.

If the sign is baptism, the hole is sin, and the helper is Jesus, the latter makes more sense. A person who has been “saved” in the Protestant sense should not be allowed to sin again, meaning they no longer need Jesus to help them out anymore. But we all know this to be absolutely false. We are sinful by nature and redeemed in Christ. My sixteen year old niece should not be able to say the sinner’s prayer and expect to go until she’s ninety without sinning. Obviously there are more holes in the road and obviously we need Christ.

I’ve actually been having this discussion with a friend of mine who believes in OSAS. I asked him: if you are guaranteed heaven, and I mean absolutely guaranteed heaven by being saved, why did Christ explicitly command us to “confess [our] sins to one another”? Does it not make sense that if you are absolutely guaranteed heaven by being “saved” that confession is pointless? There would be absolutely no need for that passage to be written. But it was. And it is important because salvation is not a one time static thing.

 

[Newbie2]

NO sir! why should we be purged at all. We can be thrown into Hell as damned.

That’s the point, isn’t it?

As I said, in the extreme sense OSAS defines “saved” as no further need for purification. We/they are “saved” from damnation and punishment. Note that such is the extreme position; I’m not certain how many subscribe to this POV.

Not to mention that it certainly isn’t a Catholic position.

 

[elvisman]

Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that they believe in “purgation” (the act) rather than “purgatory” (a place).
The evangelical might say, “Yes we are purified, but it is instantanious and there is no need for an “intermediary stop” in some ‘non-biblical’, purification place called purgatory.”

Peace
James

Then they would agree (partly) with the Catholic Church, which teaches that Purgatory is not necessarily a place, but a state of purgation.

**I, personally, don’t know a single Evangelical who believes in Purgatory - even as defined in this manner. Most would say that they enter Heaven covered by Christ’s righteousness, whereas we Catholics believe that Christ makes us righteous before entering heaven. **
Rev. 21:27 says that nothing unclean shall enter heaven - not even a snow-covered dunghill . . .

 

[Pitcharan]

That’s the point, isn’t it?

As I said, in the extreme sense OSAS defines “saved” as no further need for purification. We/they are “saved” from damnation and punishment. Note that such is the extreme position; I’m not certain how many subscribe to this POV.

Not to mention that it certainly isn’t a Catholic position.

As I mentioned at the very outset when I started the thread, the purpose was to discuss what to make out of the true meaning of OSAS by starting from scratch; i.e., without any reference to either the catholic view point or any other extreme view or Calvinistic doctrine.

Recall how our Lord approached a similar situation: The jews worshipped God in the Holy Temple in Jerusalem while the samaritans worshipped on the mountain.. Our Lord gently told the Samaritan woman: We jews worship what we know while you (samaritans) worship what you do not know; for salvation is from the jews. And then He added this to suggest that the truth was different from what either percieved: The day is coming, when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth. These are the kind of worshippers that the Father seeks

Our Lord’s example only tells me that I should strictly avoid a “holier than thou” approach while dealing with my brethren from other denominations, even if I am sure that my understanding is more accurate. Which means, I should temporarily set aside my convictions (without disowning it) as well as theirs and then journey together with them and find the truth jointly.

For every bibilical truth we will find misinterpretations, distortions and perversions. Even the devil quotes the scriptures for its own evil purpose. But that doesn’t mean a true believer should deny a bibilical truth even if it is the most misquoted and distorted one. Rather it is our responsibility to propagate the truth alongwith its true purpose