OSAS Again! Weeee!

[petra]

Curious:

Do you that don’t subscribe to OSAS or at least some kind of ‘security’ walk around in fear and terror all the time? I have to admit that I"ve often wondered what kind of misery it must be to have to live knowing that you’ll never know if you’ll make it. That you’ve done the best you could and still have to say “I don’t know” if ever asked “where do you think you’ll go if you die.” To have a lifetime of service to God “erased” by one, or even a series, of some sin and die in that state…and go to hell?

What I want is for the non OSAS people to comment on if they’re ever scared to go to hell. What sin (mortal sin?) makes you scared? I’m looking forward to good Catholic reponses but all who don’t subscribe to it feel free to reply. You know? Do you sleep well at night just not knowing? . . . Do you know where you’ll go if you die RIGHT NOW???" . . . I’m really wanting to know how you guys deal with it, or if it’s even a problem for you.

This is a very interesting thread and a valid question. After all, perfect love casts out all fear. But, on the other hand, we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

I used to be a Calvinist, and coming to terms with the Biblically-supported fact that we may fall from grace was difficult. But, ironically, it is now an issue that I feel a great passion for defending and explaining to others.

As others have pointed out, OSAS security is really not very secure. When I was a Calvinist, my explanation of someone’s grossly sinful behavior after “accepting Christ” was that they were never actually saved in the first place. Maybe they weren’t really sincere (or sincere enough), when they prayed the sinner’s prayer. Or maybe a key part of the sinner’s prayer was omitted. (I tended to regard the sinner’s prayer as a prescriptive formula. If it didn’t cover all the bases as described in the 4 Spiritual Laws tract, maybe it wasn’t efficacious.)

So how does one know that salvation really “took?” When you say the sinner’s prayer, how do you know you’re really sincere enough or that it was prayed according to the right formula? We all encounter dry times and doubts. And sometimes we fall hard. What is a OSAS person supposed to make of that? It can create crippling doubts about one’s ability to get saved in the first place.

On the other hand, a Biblical understanding of salvation and forgiveness can create a great deal of security. John, in his first epistle, describes the basis for that security. 1 John 5:13 says, “These thing I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.” OSAS Christians take this out of context and interpret it to mean that “if you believe in the name of the Son of God, you may know that you have eternal life.” That is not what it is saying. “These things” are how we may know we have eternal life. John is simply identifying who is audience is: those who believe in the name of the Son of God.

So what are “these things?” A Biblical understanding of our assurance resides in our fruit. Everything in 1 John that proceeds the above verse describes what a saved person and an unsaved person looks like. He wrote this to help us self-diagnose our spiritual condition. I used to think he was contrasting eternally secure Christians with people who had never been saved. But he is actually warning about Christians falling away and being lost forever. If your Bible version uses the word “abide” throughout this epistle, go to Webster’s and look up what the word means. It means “remain.” Why would he be warning people to remain in Christ if they were never in Christ to begin with? No, John is talking to Christians. It is possible to fall from grace and be in danger of hell, and he provides information to help us assess whether our faith is still producing fruit. As James says, “faith without works is dead.” We are not saved BY our works, but saving faith always produces fruit.

You ask how a lifetime of service to God can be “erased” by one, or even a series of sins with the effect that one would go to hell? My answer to that is that a lifetime of service does not save us—we are not saved by works. We are saved as a result of the spiritual state that we are in when we die. Are we in grace or not? Are we in a condition in which the perfect and complete sacrifice of Christ can be applied? Are we in or out?

[continued…]

 

[petra]

Anyway, here is my comment to your questions . . . No, I don’t walk around in fear and terror all the time, and I sleep well at night. I also don’t walk around in fear or lose sleep that my husband will leave me or my parents will disown me either. But I recognize that even those relationships are not bulletproof. Given serious enough sins or betrayals, it is within my ability to destroy those relationships. Knowing this does not produce fear, but a tender heart to cultivate and nurture all my relationships. The same holds true with God. He is slow to anger and realizes my frailties. He is patient and loving. But it is theoretically possible for me to walk away from Him or deliberately disregard the grace that the Holy Spirit gives me to resist serious sin. Doing so would cause me to fall from grace. But God provides for reconciliation for all sins, no matter how severe. The only unforgivable sin is unrepentance.

Admittedly, an issue that I have struggled with in my Catholic faith is the seemingly relative ease which one may fall from grace. When I was investigating the Catholic Church prior to converting, I email-corresponded with Catholic author Mark Shea several times. I posed this question to him: How easy is it to actually fall from grace? He said it depends who you talk to or how you interpret Catholic teachings.

The 3 ingredients necessary for mortal sin are grave matter, full knowledge of the sin, and full consent. Nobody really knows what it means to have full knowledge or full consent, except God—especially for a specific individual and a specific situation. Given this, in combination with the nature of earthly models of His relationship with us—marriage and parenthood, I personally believe that it difficult and rare for a sincere Christian to fall from grace. We don’t normally see parents and children toggling between a close relationship and none at all. We don’t see a married couple toggling between marriage and divorce on a weekly basis. These relationships can be broken, but I believe God wants us to have the same level of safety, on the one hand, and the same level of concern, on the other hand, as we do with Him.

 

[John_Henry]

petra:

fantastic post deleted for length’s sake

Petra,
ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC ANSWER!

 

[chb03c]

michaelgazin:

Once Saved Always Saved…eternal security…once you accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior, you are destined to Heaven and there is nothing you can do to change that. You can rest assured that you are going to heaven, no matter how grave of a sin you commit, and no matter how many times it is committed, you got a one way ticket to Heaven

Oh ok thank you very much. I just didn’t understand what OSAS stood for. Now I get it.

God Bless

 

[Matt16_18]

petra:

When I was investigating the Catholic Church prior to converting, I email-corresponded with Catholic author Mark Shea several times. I posed this question to him: How easy is it to actually fall from grace?

How easy is it to commit the sin of fornication by sleeping with someone before marriage? How easy is it to commit the sin of adultery? How easy is it to practice artificial contraception? Some Christians commit these mortal sins with ease, and some do not.

Some Christians think that being “saved” gives them a contract with God, and in that contract is a clause that states that they can commit any sin they feel like committing - with an iron-clad guarantee that they will go to heaven when they die. Even if they die as unrepentant Satan worshipping murderers that commit the unforgivable sin. Other Christians believe that God is going to force “irresistable grace” on them and turn them into holy meat robots incapable of sinning. The OSAS believing Christians do not have faith in God, they have faith in the strange doctrines of deluded men that can save no one.

 

[Lillith]

The thing that I find curious about OSAS, is the belief that once you have been saved, you become “hidden in Christ”…in other words when it comes time for judgement, God the father will look at you and only see Jesus…

To me, this takes away the relationship that I have with God my father…and I find that curious…especially when asked if I have a personal relationship with the Lord, because to me I have the upmost and closest relationship possible…God will see me, as loving a daughter as I can be, and I will be judged for what I have done…not the incredibley awesome deeds my big brother Jesus did!

 

[Matt16_18]

Curious:

Do you that don’t subscribe to OSAS or at least some kind of ‘security’ walk around in fear and terror all the time?

Does the grace of God give us the freedom from sin, or does the grace of God give us the freedom to commit sin with impunity?

What version of OSAS do you believe in? Do you believe in the hyper-Calvinist version of OSAS that teaches that “irresistible grace” turns totally depraved men and women into holy meat robots incapable of sinning?

Or do you believe in the antinomian version of OSAS that teaches that since all Christians will go to heaven when they die, that the Christians on earth can commit any sin that they feel like committing? Where does scriptures teach that being “saved” is a license to sin?

Do you believe that a Christian would go to heaven if he died as an unrepentant, Satan worshiping, child molesting monster whose last act on earth was to scream out blasphemy against the Holy Spirit? What would heaven be like for an unrepentant Satan worshipper? Would God force the unrepentant Satan worshipper to adore God in heaven? If so, why does not God force all the unrepentant sinners on earth to “get saved” since we know that the scriptures teach that God desires the salvation for all men?

I don’t believe in the filth of OSAS heresy, nor do walk around in terror because of that. I trust in God, not in my self, and not in bizarre false doctrine.

I live by faith, and my faith gives me the assurance of hope. I have faith that God will give me the grace that is sufficient for me to live a holy life that is pleasing to God. If one does not have that kind of faith, then one does not have the faith that saves.

I do not deceive myself that God is going to force me to be holy if I don’t want to cooperate with his grace, nor do I live under that delusion that because I am a Christian that I can commit any sin that I feel like committing.

 

[petra]

Matt16_18:

How easy is it to commit the sin of fornication by sleeping with someone before marriage? How easy is it to commit the sin of adultery? How easy is it to practice artificial contraception? Some Christians commit these mortal sins with ease, and some do not.

I do not think the sins you cite above would be easy to commit for a sincere Christian who is serious about following God. And don’t discount the ingredient of full knowledge and understanding about what is being done. Protestants and many Catholics wrongly practice contraception all the time. But they may not understand why it is wrong or may not at all even know it is wrong. A sin is not mortal unless all the components are present. God, ultimately, is the only one who can rightly judge the condition of a person’s heart.

Some Christians think that being “saved” gives them a contract with God, and in that contract is a clause that states that they can commit any sin they feel like committing - with an iron-clad guarantee that they will go to heaven when they die. Even if they die as unrepentant Satan worshipping murderers that commit the unforgivable sin. Other Christians believe that God is going to force “irresistable grace” on them and turn them into holy meat robots incapable of sinning. The OSAS believing Christians do not have faith in God, they have faith in the strange doctrines of deluded men that can save no one.

I agree. OSAS is a “strange doctrine” and very dangerous. On judgment day, many people will be horrified to learn they were not saved on the day they died. I think it is one of the scariest results of the Protestant schism.

 

[AServantofGod]

If hell is defined as absence from God because one rejected God, then any one who sincerely loves God will end up in heaven immediately at best and purgatory for a very long time at the worst. And in purgatory, even though you are suffering you are not removed from God’s love. That’s not such a bad deal.

 

[petra]

Lillith:

The thing that I find curious about OSAS, is the belief that once you have been saved, you become “hidden in Christ”…in other words when it comes time for judgement, God the father will look at you and only see Jesus…

To me, this takes away the relationship that I have with God my father…and I find that curious…especially when asked if I have a personal relationship with the Lord, because to me I have the upmost and closest relationship possible…God will see me, as loving a daughter as I can be, and I will be judged for what I have done…not the incredibley awesome deeds my big brother Jesus did!

Being hidden in Christ (Col. 3:3) does not mean that the Father cannot see us. We definitely have a relationship with the Father, as Jesus says that all who know Him know the Father.

Eternal life is determined by the spiritual state that we are in when we die, not by a lifetime of deeds, although a saving faith will produce fruit. The concept of being in a state of grace includes having all of our sins covered. Remember, on our own (apart from Christ’s atonement), it only takes 1 sin for man to be separated eternally from God. So, in Christ, we are, in that respect, hidden—as the Father cannot look upon sin. This is why we are still saved even if we commit venial sins. Christ has covered them. But our actions are relevant, as they have the potential for moving us outside the state of being hidden in Christ. It’s not that Christ’s sacrifice cannot cover mortal sins–He certainly can and does when we repent of them. But mortal sins have the particular characteristic of us rejecting our salvation or trampling the work of the Holy Spirit. In an unrepentent state of mortal sin, we are outside of grace.

Jesus is not our big brother. He is Lord Most High. We also are not saved by His earthly good works. In other words, his miracles, his healings, his holiness do not save us. We are saved by the appropriation and application of His payment for our sin. It is His work on the cross that enables us to be saved.

 

[Lillith]

petra:

Being hidden in Christ (Col. 3:3) does not mean that the Father cannot see us. We definitely have a relationship with the Father, as Jesus says that all who know Him know the Father.

Eternal life is determined by the spiritual state that we are in when we die, not by a lifetime of deeds, although a saving faith will produce fruit. The concept of being in a state of grace includes having all of our sins covered. Remember, on our own (apart from Christ’s atonement), it only takes 1 sin for man to be separated eternally from God. So, in Christ, we are, in that respect, hidden—as the Father cannot look upon sin. This is why we are still saved even if we commit venial sins. Christ has covered them. But our actions are relevant, as they have the potential for moving us outside the state of being hidden in Christ. It’s not that Christ’s sacrifice cannot cover mortal sins–He certainly can and does when
we repent of them. But mortal sins have the particular characteristic of us rejecting our salvation or trampling the work of the Holy Spirit. In an unrepentent state of mortal sin, we are outside of grace.

Jesus is not our big brother. He is Lord Most High. We also are not saved by His earthly good works. In other words, his miracles, his healings, his holiness do not save us. We are saved by the appropriation and application of His payment for our sin. It is His work on the cross that enables us to be saved.

Petra…I certainly don’t want to quibble about titles, I know about Jesus’ devine nature…but God is the Father, Jesus is the Son, and Jesus’ death on the cross allows me to be the adopted daughter of God…and therefore, I can claim Jesus as my big brother…and Lord

What you describe is not OSAS, which is the belief that one can NEVER loose his salvation. My own understanding comes from my husband’s Baptist family…who literally believe that God will not see them but Christ Jesus on the day of judgement. I realize that not all protestants believe that…but that is OSAS.

 

[Matt16_18]

petra:

I do not think the sins you cite above would be easy to commit for a sincere Christian who is serious about following God. And don’t discount the ingredient of full knowledge and understanding about what is being done.

Why do you say that? I know many people that claim to be sincere Christians that slept around before they got married (the sin of fornication). This sin seems to be fairly common among the “saved” fundamentalists that I personally know.

And don’t discount the ingredient of full knowledge and understanding about what is being done. Protestants and many Catholics wrongly practice contraception all the time. But they may not understand why it is wrong or may not at all even know it is wrong.

What excuse does a Catholic have for practicing the sin of artificial contraception? Even Protestants know that the Catholic Church teaches that artificial contraception is sin that can lead to eternal damnation. Knowing is not the same thing as feeling.

A sin is not mortal unless all the components are present. God, ultimately, is the only one who can rightly judge the condition of a person’s heart.

Agreed. But knowing something is a sin does not require that one have* feelings * that something is a sin. All of us are born with defective consciences in need of formation. Consciences are defective with either the fault of licentiousness, or the fault of scrupulosity. People with the defect of licentiousness have consciences that allow them to commit sin without feelings of conviction. People whose consciences suffer from the defect of scrupulosity have feelings that what they are doing is sinful, even though the Church teaches that what they do is not a sin.

The formation of a perfect conscience is achieved by making an act of the will to accept the infallible moral teachings of Christ’s church. This is true saving faith – when we trust and obey in spite of our feelings.

God often times will change our feelings after we trust and obey. I know many Catholics that gave up artificial contraception because they knew that the Church teaches that to practice ABC is to commit mortal sin. It is only after they lived a life without ABC that their feelings about the sinfulness of ABC changed. Catholics that think that they can defy Church teaching because they don’t feel like what they are doing is “that bad”, have placed their trust in their feelings, and not in God.

I agree. OSAS is a “strange doctrine” and very dangerous. On judgment day, many people will be horrified to learn they were not saved on the day they died. I think it is one of the scariest results of the Protestant schism.

Protestants claim that their highest authority for determining moral doctrine is the Bible. But of course Protestants have to interpret what the Bible says. Ultimately, the highest authority that a Protestant trusts for determining moral truth is his feelings - and that is where the snare lies. Catholics who trust their feelings instead of accepting what the Church teaches also risk eternal damnation by walking this path.The heart is deceitful above all things,
and desperately corrupt;
who can understand it?
Jer. 17:9

 

[petra]

Lillith:

Petra…I certainly don’t want to quibble about titles, I know about Jesus’ devine nature…but God is the Father, Jesus is the Son, and Jesus’ death on the cross allows me to be the adopted daughter of God…and therefore, I can claim Jesus as my big brother…and Lord

Okay. I didn’t mean to be nit-picky. It just struck me the wrong way. I’m sorry!

What you describe is not OSAS, which is the belief that one can NEVER loose his salvation. My own understanding comes from my husband’s Baptist family…who literally believe that God will not see them but Christ Jesus on the day of judgement. I realize that not all protestants believe that…but that is OSAS.

Actually, I was trying to explain what I understand the biblical, Catholic view to be. The term “hidden in Christ” is a biblical term (Col. 3:3 ) and I was explaining that to accept this term does not mean we don’t have a relationship with the Father or that He cannot see us at all. He definitely does and can.

I certainly agree that Protestant views on any subject will be as numerous as there are denominations.

 

[petra]

Matt16_18:

Why do you say that? I know many people that claim to be sincere Christians that slept around before they got married (the sin of fornication). This sin seems to be fairly common among the “saved” fundamentalists that I personally know.

Just because someone says they are a committed Christian doesn’t mean they are. What you describe is exactly the concern that I have about OSAS. It is very dangerous.

What excuse does a Catholic have for practicing the sin of artificial contraception? Even Protestants know that the Catholic Church teaches that artificial contraception is sin that can lead to eternal damnation. Knowing is not the same thing as feeling.

Who said anything about feeling? I spoke of understanding, which a form of knowing. Full knowledge is a required component of mortal sin. My point was that only God can judge whether a person has full knowledge of what they are doing.

 

[Isidore_AK]

I make use of the confessional as necessary. I avoid sinning as much as possible. Then I trust in God, and I trust in God’s Church to lead me.

I don’t worry at all…although I don’t get enough sleep (but thats because I keep staying up late to play computer games).

St. Paul says that we ‘work out our salvation in fear and trembling’, I just have to do my best to avoid sin, repent when I do sin, and trust in God’s mercy.

Pax Vobiscum!

 

[Matt16_18]

petra:

I spoke of understanding, which a form of knowing. Full knowledge is a required component of mortal sin.

Where does the Catholic Church teach that understanding precedes belief? What constitutes full knowledge? Does one have full knowledge only if one knows and one has the feelings that agree with that knowledge?

I think that you have the cart before the horse. A Catholic is required to believe even if he does not have full understanding of what the Church teachs. Indeed, understanding is often impossible unless one first believes with holy faith. Christianity is a religion of faith, not gnosis.

My point was that only God can judge whether a person has full knowledge of what they are doing.

I agree with that. Where we differ is our understanding of what constitutes full knowledge. You think that it is difficult for Christians to commit mortal sin, and I know of nothing in either the scriptures, or the teachings of the Catholic Church, that supports such a viewpoint.

The wide path that leads to destruction is an easy path to walk.

 

[Liberian]

Curious:

Do you that don’t subscribe to OSAS or at least some kind of ‘security’ walk around in fear and terror all the time? I have to admit that I"ve often wondered what kind of misery it must be to have to live knowing that you’ll never know if you’ll make it. That you’ve done the best you could and still have to say “I don’t know” if ever asked “where do you think you’ll go if you die.” To have a lifetime of service to God “erased” by one, or even a series, of some sin and die in that state…and go to hell?

Curious,

I used to subscribe (during my Protestant days at the Baptist Student Union) to the doctrine of once-saved-always-saved. Now I consider it a case of Protestant wishful thinking.

I don’t spend my days living in terror of going to Hell. I have faith that God is good and merciful, and that one of the ways He shows His mercy is that He is not looking for excuses to keep people out of Heaven. My attitude is more like that expressed by George Patton in December 1944, when the Allies had liberated France and Belgium, the Soviets were advancing in the east, and Germany was on the verge of collapse: “Gentlemen, we can still lose this war.” In the same way, “gentlemen, we can still lose our salvation.” It wouldn’t be easy, and God will be trying very hard to prevent us from doing it, but with a determined effort we would be able to do it. Maybe even without a determined effort; I for one have no interest in trying.

• Liberian

 

[Curious]

Liberian, petra your examples and answers have been really really great. Actually others also have described well too but it’s late and I’m too lazy to go through and pick complements. Just no one feel left out. I think I already have a much better understanding of how it goes just by everyone’s replies. But please don’t stop. The discussion is really good.

What version of OSAS do you believe in? Do you believe in the hyper-Calvinist version of OSAS that teaches that “irresistible grace” turns totally depraved men and women into holy meat robots incapable of sinning?

Or do you believe in the antinomian version of OSAS that teaches that since all Christians will go to heaven when they die, that the Christians on earth can commit any sin that they feel like committing? Where does scriptures teach that being “saved” is a license to sin?

Assumptions, assumptions. Exactly where did I say I subscribed to OSAS? Don’t assume. Ask. :tsktsk:

 

[Anima_Christi]

It is good to have a healthy fear of hell when we’ve committed a sin against God. In fact, one of the necessary components of a valid confession is that the penitent fears hell. The act of contrition we recite after confessing goes, “O my God, I am heartily sorry for having offended thee, not only because I fear the loss of heaven and the pain of hell, but most of all because I have offended thee, my God, who art all good and deserving of all my love . . .”
Through the sacraments of penance and, most especially, the Eucharist, God gives us powerful graces to avoid sin. It is unlikely that someone who walks in the light and friendship of God with sincerity would die without having the opportunity to confess, if he needed it.
St. Paul exhorts us: “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.” (Phil. 2:12,13)

 

[Matt16_18]

Curious:

Exactly where did I say I subscribed to OSAS? Don’t assume. Ask.

Do you believe in OSAS? If so, what version, the Calvinist version or the Baptist/antinomian version?

If you don’t believe in OSAS, why not?