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Curious
Guest
This and a multitude of other questions you could ask me right now all have the same response: “I don’t know.”
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Matt16_18
Guest
Let’s narrow the options down.
Do you believe that you have free will, and that you can choose to commit sin?
C
Curious
Guest
yes
M
Matt16_18
Guest
Ok, you believe that you have free will and that you are capable of committing sin. That is a sane thing to believe! Your sanity rules out any possibility of believing in the Calvinist version of OSAS.
Now let us see if you can believe in the antinomian version of OSAS.
Do you believe that Jesus preached a gospel that taught that once a man gets “saved”, that he has a contract with God that assures him that there is NO sin that he could commit, none whatsoever, that would keep him from entering heaven? Let us put this into a concrete, albeit, an admittedly extreme example. (It is logical to posit an extreme example, because the antinomian version of OSAS is an extreme belief, since it asserts that no conceivable sin that a Christian could commit that would lead to his damnation).
A boy gets “saved” when he is fifteen years old. He lives as a sincerely believing Christian for ten years, and then he backslides and begins a slow slide into moral depravity. By the time he is a sixty-year-old adult, he has become an avid Satan worshipper and an unrepentant child molester. One night, he kills an infant that he has molested and offers up the infant’s corpse to Satan as a part of his ritual magic. While he is drinking the blood of the infant, he screams blasphemies against the Holy Spirit and then suddenly dies of a massive heart attack. This once Christian man died completely unrepentant for all the sins he committed as a Satan worshipper.
Do you believe that God will allow this unrepentant Satan worshipper to enter heaven because he once made a sincere altar call when he was fifteen years old?
C
Curious
Guest
No - though there was a time when I might have said yes.
So, no.
M
Matt16_18
Guest
It is good that you don’t believe that Jesus taught there could ever be unrepentant Satan worshippers in heaven. For Jesus never taught that one could be unrepentant for one’s sins and enter the Kingdom of God.
You can’t believe in the Calvinist version of OSAS, and clearly that you can’t believe in the antinomian version of OSAS either. And if you can’t believe in either of these versions of OSAS, then you must admit that you can’t believe in OSAS.
Now tell us, do you “walk around in fear and terror all the time?”
C
Curious
Guest
In my early teen years is when I first discovered church. It was Baptist and OSAS. My later teen years I started in Pentacostal-ish, Assembly of God-ish type churches, and they didn’t believe in OSAS and were extreme - they were the type that if a good Christian hit his thumb with a hammer, cussed, and then dropped dead, he would go to hell. And that’s how I’ve looked at most non-OSAS people. I’ve learned, esp through this board, that it’s not that extreme, but I still wondered. My first experience amongst church goers included OSAS and I suppose there is some remnant of that feeling in me. I’m not sure.
This particular thread has given great examples and been helpful. And no I don’t walk around in fear and terror.
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Matt16_18
Guest
And neither do the Catholics that have posted to this thread walk around in fear and terror because they don’t believe in OSAS.
When you believe that God loves you, and that God wants to give you the graces that are necessary to become a holy person that is full of charity, there is nothing to worry about. It is only when we no longer desire to increase in holiness or charity that we should begin to worry. In the spiritual life, one is either moving forward, or one is moving backwards. A fear of becoming complacent in our conversion to holiness is a good and healthy thing. The law of the LORD is perfect,
reviving the soul;
the testimony of the LORD is sure,
making wise the simple;
the precepts of the LORD are right,
rejoicing the heart;
the commandment of the LORD is pure,
enlightening the eyes;
the fear of the LORD is clean,
enduring for ever;
the ordinances of the LORD are true,
and righteous altogether.
More to be desired are they than gold,
even much fine gold;
sweeter also than honey
and drippings of the honeycomb.
Moreover by them is thy servant warned;
in keeping them there is great reward.
But who can discern his errors?
Clear thou me from hidden faults.
Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins;
let them not have dominion over me!
Then I shall be blameless,
and innocent of great transgression.
Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
be acceptable in thy sight,
O LORD, my rock and my redeemer.
Psalm 19:7-14
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Curious
Guest
So what you’re saying essentially is that Christians that are doing the best they can need not worry? But if you ask a non OSAS Christian who is doing the will of God to the best of their ability and to their knowledge if they will go to heaven or hell, they’ll still reply, “I hope heaven.” Because they think the best they can do still might not be good enough.
If the best we can do isn’t good enough - that’s a thought that could cause one to walk around in fear and terror.
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LittleDeb
Guest
I don’t walk around in fear because it isn’t really about what I can or cannot accomplish. Christ died so that we might have life. That part I know for sure. The only part ever in doubt is am I willing to cooperate in that grace?
As any parent knows cooperation is not a one-time decision. I can have a very cooperative child who still disobeys from time to time. General cooperation does not mean permanent cooperation. My child isn’t “once cooperative always cooperative.” While there is still the concern that the child may misbehave, I do not fear taking the child out with me.
I think I have trouble understanding the idea that a fall from grace is not possible. If I were able to go through life just knowing I was personally assured of heaven I think I would be more concerned with “the when.” I think I would be asking myself, “Well if I am with God already why am I still here?”
While I understand OSAS in the abstract I cannot understand it in the practical. In my experience it has been the one thing that caused my non-Catholic friends the most trouble when they found themselves in sin. They seemed to dispair that their “saved moment” wasn’t real. I don’t have a moment. My life is the process.
As any parent knows cooperation is not a one-time decision. I can have a very cooperative child who still disobeys from time to time. General cooperation does not mean permanent cooperation. My child isn’t “once cooperative always cooperative.” While there is still the concern that the child may misbehave, I do not fear taking the child out with me.
I think I have trouble understanding the idea that a fall from grace is not possible. If I were able to go through life just knowing I was personally assured of heaven I think I would be more concerned with “the when.” I think I would be asking myself, “Well if I am with God already why am I still here?”
While I understand OSAS in the abstract I cannot understand it in the practical. In my experience it has been the one thing that caused my non-Catholic friends the most trouble when they found themselves in sin. They seemed to dispair that their “saved moment” wasn’t real. I don’t have a moment. My life is the process.
C
Curious
Guest
I think that saying that everyone that believes in OSAS believes that if you fall into sin you “never were saved to begin with” isn’t too fair. I’ve heard that before but not much.
The way I understand it isn’t that way. Yes, people will sin after becoming Christian and even if they fall away and committ gross sin, nothing can un-do the committment they once made. That’s always how I understood it - not “their salvation never ‘took’ to begin with.”
The way I understand it isn’t that way. Yes, people will sin after becoming Christian and even if they fall away and committ gross sin, nothing can un-do the committment they once made. That’s always how I understood it - not “their salvation never ‘took’ to begin with.”
M
Matt16_18
Guest
If a Christian really is doing the best that he can to please God, then he need not worry - at that moment in time. The problem with Baptist/antinomian OSAS is that it teaches that once you get “saved” you need not worry - ever. Which means that if you are “saved”, you can do what you know God hates, and God will be forced to give you a place in heaven.
The Baptist/antinomian version of OSAS completely reverses the relationship that men have with God. The “saved” man becomes the Lord of his life and God becomes his slave that must accept whatever the “saved” man wishes to do. The “saved” man is free live his life any way he feels like living it – holy or depraved, it doesn’t matter, because how he lives has no bearing at all on if he will enter heaven when he dies.
According to the gospel of antinomian OSAS, the “saved” man does NOT have to have Jesus as his Lord, because by saying the “sinner’s prayer", he has received a legal contract that binds God to a contractual obligation for doing the work of saying the sinners prayer. And that legal contract has a clause in fine print that says that God is forced to accept into heaven Christians that die as depraved and unrepentant sinners. The “saved” man is free to live a holy life if he feels like it. A holy life is, of course, encouraged among the Baptists – but the bottom line is that a “saved” man can become a unrepentant depraved, raping and murdering maniac if he wants to live like that, and God would be forced to bow to the will of the maniac.
If they know the Gospel, they would probably say that their hope is in Christ.
Through him we have obtained access to this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in our hope of sharing the glory of God.
Romans 5:2
For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness.
Gal. 5:5
Who knows for sure how they will stand up under intense persecution and/or torture? The life that we are living today may tommorrow take a drastic turn for the worse. The only Christians that are assured of being saved are those that endure to the end in times of persecution. … brother will deliver up brother to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death; and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.
Mark 13:12-13The Christian that does not bother to strive for the virtue of courage and endurance when times are good has no reason to hope that he is going to have courage and endurance when times are bad.
Christ gave us the parable of the seeds sown on different soils for a reason. Some Christians are like the seeds sown on the rocky path – they are happy Christians when times are good, but when times get tough, they fall away: “the ones sown upon rocky ground, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy; and they have no root in themselves, but endure for a while; then, when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately they fall away.” Mark 4:16-17
Jesus warned many times that there would be Christians that would fall away when they were faced with tribulations.… all this is but the beginning of the birth-pangs. "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation, and put you to death; and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. And then many will fall away, and betray one another, and hate one another.
Matt. 24:8-10The author of Hebrews warns against falling away by unbelief:Take care, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.
Heb. 3:12The lie of antinomian OSAS is that a Christian need not ever worry about the consequences of falling away. Even if the “saved” man becomes a total coward and denies Jesus in times of tribulation, he doesn’t have to worry about whether he will go to heaven. In fact, the “saved” man doesn’t even have to worry about denying Jesus when he isn’t being persecuted - he is free to commit whatever sin he feels like committing, do whatever he wants to do, live however he wants to live - because he has the “assurance of salvation”.
M
Matt16_18
Guest
That is how I have heard Southern Baptists and other fundamentalists explain their understanding of OSAS. And this version of OSAS is a lie from the depths of hell - it is a snare that can lead to eternal damnation for those who think that they have the option to live lives of unrepentant sinfulness.
The scriptures speak about having faith and hope, and never once are the phrases “eternal security” or “assurance of salvation” used in the Bible.Rejoice in your hope, be patient in tribulation, be constant in prayer.
Romans 12:12
… you, who once were estranged and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before him, provided that you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.
Col. 1:21-23
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Curious
Guest
Thank you for the verses Matt. I’m familiar with every single one of them. As I said in one of the original posts I made, I’m not really looking for proof for or against OSAS. I merely wanted to know what people thought about it, how they coped with knowing there’s no assurance. That’s all.
M
Matt16_18
Guest
I thank you for your honest answers on this thread.
I suppose most Catholics find it odd that some Protestants would even think that Catholics must be miserable as they “cope” with the idea that a follower of Christ must live a godly life, and that a life of unrepentant immorality life is not an option for anyone that confesses Jesus as their Lord.
Catholics that have never heard of the extreme hardcore antinomian OSAS of some Protestant fundamentalists are often baffled that anyone could read the bible and conclude that God would ever allow unrepentant sinners into heaven. Or that a Christian could refuse to have a relationship with Jesus as his Lord and still be assured of going to heaven.
Catholics struggle with the Gospel, of course, but their struggle is the struggle to grow in holiness. It is not easy to abandon our will for God’s will!
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
He is both - surely ? If He can pull off something like becoming the Son of Mary in time as well as of the Father: He can certainly manage to be both “Lord and Christ” & “the firstborn among many brethren”
St. Paul says that Christians are in Christ - and also that Christ dwells in them.
The two descriptions complement each other. The relation of Christians to Christ, transcends space - so they are described as being within one another.Aren’t we saved by the total Christ, in the totality of all His works and of all His activities as God-Man ? The Cross is the supreme exercise of His Love, and the most universal - but it is not the only one. All that He did was infinitely gracious, because He is also the Last Adam and as such, He is the Head of a new humanity. Wouldn’t be a bit strange if some of His works were saving works, and others not ? ##
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
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MaggieOH
Guest
I am dead set against the theology of OSAS because I believe that it gives people a false sense of security.I have a question for all those who don’t subscribe to OSAS…and note this is NOT an invitation for everyone to junk this thread up with thousands of quotes and things prove OSAS isn’t true or is true or anything. But I do invite comments on the following.
Do you that don’t subscribe to OSAS or at least some kind of ‘security’ walk around in fear and terror all the time? I have to admit that I"ve often wondered what kind of misery it must be to have to live knowing that you’ll never know if you’ll make it. That you’ve done the best you could and still have to say “I don’t know” if ever asked “where do you think you’ll go if you die.” To have a lifetime of service to God “erased” by one, or even a series, of some sin and die in that state…and go to hell?
So please…don’t tell me I need to wake up and smell the sulphur burning, and don’t tell me all about the justice of God, and don’t give me one single verse or anything. I don’t want any of that.
What I want is for the non OSAS people to comment on if they’re ever scared to go to hell. What sin (mortal sin?) makes you scared? I’m looking forward to good Catholic reponses but all who don’t subscribe to it feel free to reply. You know? Do you sleep well at night just not knowing?
Good grief…I probably sound ridiculous. I probably sound fabulously fundy “**Friend! Do you know where you’ll go if you die RIGHT NOW???” **I’m not trying to sound like that. I’m really wanting to know how you guys deal with it, or if it’s even a problem for you.
Comment away.
As a Catholic, no I do not run around in fear that I am going to hell. I feels a sense of security knowing that my sins are forgiven when they are confessed sincerely and with a contrite heart. I know that I have been absolved of my sins each time I go to Confession.
As a baptized person, I know that I am a member of the family of God. So long as I do not reject God by turning completely away from Him through sin, I know that God, who will be my judge, will judge me according to the way in which I have done or have failed to do His Will.
At the same time, and this is important to me, I feel a lot of solace over the recent death of my sister, knowing that she received the Sacrament of Extreme Unction (the Last Rites) not long before she passed away due to her bone cancer. You see my sister was not perfect but she had a love for elderly people, especially those she nursed, as a nurse’s aide. I am now aware of the little things that she did for her patients, and I know that each of those little things are added to how God sees her in Eternity. What is more, even if there is a need for further cleansing in purgatory for my sister, I feel certain that her final destination will be with God and in Heaven.
D
didymus
Guest
No fear & terror at all.
Where do you think Judas is? As far as we know he was a perfectly good apostle from the time Jesus called him until he betrayed Him. Even then, Judas might have sought forgiveness rather committing suicide. But God gave us all the gift of free will, and with it, responsibility.
So please…don’t tell me I need to wake up and smell the sulphur burning, and don’t tell me all about the justice of God, and don’t give me one single verse or anything. I don’t want any of that.
It’s not a matter of being scared of mortal sin. It’s the knowledge that our relationship with Jesus is an ongoing, day-in-day-out – not a onetime emotional rush at a tent meeting.
To take an analogy, I’ve been married 20 years. I could destroy my marriage if I turned into a drunk, cheated on my wide and started beating her. All highly unlikely, not by any virtue of mine but because I grew up with a very good example of marriage.
But I also know could destroy my marriage by being cold, selfish or inattentive – much more likely. But the knowledge that it’s possible and being on the lookout for it – examining my marital conscience – probably makes it less likey that I’ll fall into those traps.
Likewise our relationship with God. We do all we can to maintain it and improve it and be aware when we have damaged it and make amends.
Sigh. Looking over what I’ve written it sounds stupid but here goes anyway.Good grief…I probably sound ridiculous. I probably sound fabulously fundy “**Friend! Do you know where you’ll go if you die RIGHT NOW???” **I’m not trying to sound like that. I’m really wanting to know how you guys deal with it, or if it’s even a problem for you.
Comment away.
M
MariaG
Guest
I originally was “saved” in a Nazarene Church. (I then went on to a AoG and Evangelical) The group I was with did not believe in OSAS. I remember the pastor used to be fond of saying we could backslide ourselves right into hell.
I was asked to give a talk on how I “know I am saved”. There were five of us at varying walks in our life with Christ.
I can say that my confidence in my salvation today is no less than when “I knew” I was saved. In fact, it is greater. Before, when I would confess my sins “straight to God” at my bedside, sometimes those sins would come back and haunt me. I was told not to worry, God had forgiven them, it was just Satan trying to get to me.
Now, with the sacrament of reconcilliation, I have never had any confessed sin come back to haunt me. The confidence I have gained from a visible miracle of confessing my sins to God, having God forgive them in the Sacrament is awesome!
I think someone else said this, (several someones?) but I no longer have to just rely on my feelings. I can have confidence in the Sacrament of Reconciliation that Jesus instituted! (Jn 20:21-23).
I walk in confidence of my salvation, but with fear, trembling and joy!
God Bless,
Maria
I was asked to give a talk on how I “know I am saved”. There were five of us at varying walks in our life with Christ.
I can say that my confidence in my salvation today is no less than when “I knew” I was saved. In fact, it is greater. Before, when I would confess my sins “straight to God” at my bedside, sometimes those sins would come back and haunt me. I was told not to worry, God had forgiven them, it was just Satan trying to get to me.
Now, with the sacrament of reconcilliation, I have never had any confessed sin come back to haunt me. The confidence I have gained from a visible miracle of confessing my sins to God, having God forgive them in the Sacrament is awesome!
I think someone else said this, (several someones?) but I no longer have to just rely on my feelings. I can have confidence in the Sacrament of Reconciliation that Jesus instituted! (Jn 20:21-23).
I walk in confidence of my salvation, but with fear, trembling and joy!
God Bless,
Maria
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