OSAS Again! Weeee!

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Hey everyone,

Your answers have been great and again, I appreciate them. However, I’m afraid this is something I’ll just have to figure out later or something. I don’t understand this whole, “No I’m not scared but I have fear and trembling” thing that seems to make up many of the responses here.

God has mercy but nobody knows where they’ll end up.
You can do your best but still don’t know.

heh…sorry…feel free to keep replying. I’m just still a little confused.
 
I feel it is hard for any person to not have at least some concern. Even people who do believe in OSAS. None of us can hold 100% assurance…we cannot even hold 100% assurance that we will wake-up each morning.

With that said, I think Catholics in a general sense do not worry about it because they have the assurance of hope. Hope that God sees how much they are trying and how much they love Him. Hope that any efforts towards faith, hope and charity, will not go unnoticed by God. Hope that when we truly repent God is listening.

Hope in the promises of God–yet not from a position of merit or assumption; rather, from a position of knowing that we must work out our salvation and that we must endure to the end.

Finally, a hope that God help us endure until that day.
 
Hope of heaven. You can’t know where you are going to end up.

I had a conversation with a cradle catholic who never left, very strong in the Lord. She would never say “I know” I am going to heaven. She would not even say I am confident, because she said it smacks her as the sin of pride. She would only say she is hopeful of heaven. Someone asked her “If you die right now will you find yourself in heaven” she would say no. Why? Because she thinks she needs a lot of refinement first in Purgatory.

No I am not scared but I have fear and trembling.

I am not scared because I know whether or not I am walking with mortal sin on my heart or not. But I walk in fear and trembling as Paul says not because I am afraid of falling off at any moment, but I have a healthy dose of respect for God’s power if I choose to sin.
:hmmm: I am sure Scott Hahn has something out there that would help you to understand the Catholic thinking and seeming contradiction. I’ll look again, but did not see anything right off hand.

Part of it is a cultural difference. And that is always hard to pin down in words. This Rock had an article about the Catholic Church being a Maternal outlook while Protestant is more Paternal. There are sometimes differences that can spring from these kind of “cultural” differences.

Sorry I could not have been more help.

God Bless,
Maria
 
No need to apologize MariaG. Everyone’s responses have been good, including yours. It’s no one’s fault I don’t get it.

Cultural differences? Hmmm…I’ve been meaning to start a thread on that but I’m not sure how far it would get - the idea that Catholicism cultural and not just religious. Or something. I wouldn’t even know how to word it.

But getting back to the topic, let me ask it this way.

The way I understand it, the Catholic thought is that if you die in a “state of friendship” with God you’ll go to heaven with perhaps time in purgatory first. Is that correct?

If it is, then can a person say for sure if they are, at that moment, in a state of friendship with God? Or do you have to walk around wondering if you’re God’s friend too?
 
OSAS, no I am not, infact, I have at times been a very grevious sinner. Now I find that I trust in Christ all the more because he raised me out of the pit of my dispair. However I do not see this grace is sufficient (that is all that is necessary to save us) but that it is efficient for causing us to turn to God. I do not see the cross as Sanctifing, but as Justifing (it brought us forgiveness for our sins but did not make us holy). God knows who his elect are, but then again he is omnicient and eternal, knowing everything from the beginning of time (even the final disposition of men’s hearts) but from a human perspective we still have free will and therefore must work out our salvation with fear and trembling. My real point is that I have fallen so far that there is no hope for me save to trust in Christ and the Church which he founded upon Peter and gave the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven to. When we stop trying to do it ourselves then God can work in us. We just have to be willing to let him.
 
When my human body dies and I meet my maker I will either be “saved” or damned. Until that time I “am” not saved, I am in the process of being saved. My salvation is indeed at hand, but I won’t be saved until my earthly body is dead. Once I am judged and “saved”, well then yes I would agree with “once saved always saved”! Since once I am saved, after my death and judgment, I will always be saved. The problem is no one, in this day and age, is “saved” while on this earth in a living human body.
 
Gottle of Geer:
Aren’t we saved by the total Christ, in the totality of all His works and of all His activities as God-Man ? The Cross is the supreme exercise of His Love, and the most universal - but it is not the only one. All that He did was infinitely gracious, because He is also the Last Adam and as such, He is the Head of a new humanity. Wouldn’t be a bit strange if some of His works were saving works, and others not ? ##
Christ’s death on the cross was not merely one of many good works He performed. He was specifically accomplishing substitutionary atonement for the sins of the world. The fact that He endured and experienced the penalty for our sins is what makes it possible for us to be saved. His good works, while having many, many other benefits, including His perfect obedience to the Law of Moses (which was required for Him to be our Redeemer–He had to perfectly fulfill the Old Covenant in order to make the New Covenant available to us) and a perfect demonstration of how to love others and conduct ourselves as Christians. But these works did not atone for our sins.
 
posted by Curious

The way I understand it, the Catholic thought is that if you die in a “state of friendship” with God you’ll go to heaven with perhaps time in purgatory first. Is that correct?
State of grace, yes. I guess friendship could be used also.
If it is, then can a person say for sure if they are, at that moment, in a state of friendship with God? Or do you have to walk around wondering if you’re God’s friend too?
Yes, a person should be able to tell whether or not they are in a state of grace or not. A person should know whether or not they have mortal sin on their soul or not.

However, there are those who suffer from scruplocity(sp?), like Martin Luther. He would go to confession many times a day. But I don’t think we can blame God or Catholic teachings for a person’s personal anxiety on the state of their immortal soul.

People certainly do blame the Church, as clearly Martin Luther did. There are several Catholics here on this forum who suffer from this anxiety also. Some walk away from the Catholic Church, others recognize that the problem is within themselves and not in the teachings of the Church.

Also while a person should know whether they are walking in a state of Grace, we both know there are people who do horrible things and twist the gospel to be something it isn’t. There will be some who say “Lord, Lord” and He will say He does not know them. So the possibility exists for false self-assurance. Which leads to why most Catholics say they have a hope of heaven lest they have false self assurance.

There, that should be clear as mud!😛

Blessings to you and yours,
Maria
 
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Curious:
I’m afraid this is something I’ll just have to figure out later or something. I don’t understand this whole, “No I’m not scared but I have fear and trembling” thing that seems to make up many of the responses here.
The Catholics are, of course, quoting Paul:Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. Do all things without grumbling or questioning, that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may be proud that I did not run in vain or labor in vain.
Philippians 2:12-13Paul was quoting the Psalm 2 when he admonished the Christians to work out their salvation in “fear and trembling”:Serve the LORD with fear,
with trembling

kiss his feet,
lest he be angry, and you perish in the way;
for his wrath is quickly kindled.
Blessed are all who take refuge in him.
Psalm 2:11-12The exhortation to obedience is the context of “fear and trembling” in Paul’s instructions to the Philippians. The Philippians were obedient to God in Paul’s presence, they now must be obedient to God in Paul’s absence. Obedience, and being faithful to God in the midst of a perverse and disobedient generation is the message of Paul, and if you read all of Psalm 2, you will see that this is the message of that Psalm also. Why do the nations conspire,
and the peoples plot in vain?
The kings of the earth set themselves,
and the rulers take counsel together,
against the LORD and his anointed, saying,
“Let us burst their bonds asunder,
and cast their cords from us.”
He who sits in the heavens laughs;
the LORD has them in derision.
Then he will speak to them in his wrath,
and terrify them in his fury, saying,
“I have set my king
on Zion, my holy hill.”
Psalm 2:1-6The soteriology of antinomian OSAS completely contradicts Paul (and the whole of the Bible!). The hardcore antinomians teach that Christians need have no fear of being disobedient to God, since a “saved” man can, if he wishes, live life of depraved and unrepentant sinfulness without worry of being damned. Since the “saved” man can sin with impunity, there is no need for a “saved” man to work out his salvation in “fear and trembling”, because there is no level of disobedience to God that would cause the “saved” man to go to hell.

The Baptists and other fundamentalist Protestants that teach the heresy of antinomianism are deluded by the false doctrines of men. 😦 There is nothing in scriptures that teach that Christians cannot be damned by becoming unrepentant sinners. And that is why Paul teaches that Christians must work out their salvation in fear and trembling. The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; a good understanding have all those who practice it.
Psalm 111:10

On the morning of the third day there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mountain, and a very loud trumpet blast, so that all the people who were in the camp trembled.
Exod. 19:16

Ascribe to the LORD the glory due his name;
bring an offering, and come before him!
Worship the LORD in holy array;
tremble before him, all the earth;
yea, the world stands firm, never to be moved.
Let the heavens be glad, and let the earth rejoice,
and let them say among the nations, “The LORD reigns!”
1Chronicles 16:29-30.
 
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