OSAS and Catholics

[Cyril_Of_Canada]

For those of you who hold on to the teaching and belief of Once Saved, Always Saved— perseverance of the saints—Do you consider catholic christians to not be christian? As it teaches, OSAS teaches that Jesus’s atonement is enough to cover all past, present, and future sins and it isn’t a matter of works, but by faith alone. And Catholics have faith in Jesus. They are baptized, have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and declare Jesus and Lord and Savior. So if you consider them in error, then you are judging them as not being saved even though you consider Jesus sacrifice enough for all sins and errors. But as a protestant, I have heard with my own ears and seen with my own eyes protestant teachers held in high regard (Luther, John Piper, Carm to name a few) Catholics as not christian and not saved though they believe catholics hold false beliefs that are a matter of indifference.

Am I right?

 

[Kliska]

What I was taught, and what I believe, non-denominationally speaking, is that just as many Catholics will be goin to Heaven as there will be Protestants… Have I heard what you are saying taught by people? Sure, but not all “protestants” believe or are taught Catholics “are not going to Heaven.”

 

[thephilosopher6]

For those of you who hold on to the teaching and belief of Once Saved, Always Saved— perseverance of the saints—Do you consider catholic christians to not be christian? As it teaches, OSAS teaches that Jesus’s atonement is enough to cover all past, present, and future sins and it isn’t a matter of works, but by faith alone. And Catholics have faith in Jesus. They are baptized, have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and declare Jesus and Lord and Savior. So if you consider them in error, then you are judging them as not being saved even though you consider Jesus sacrifice enough for all sins and errors. But as a protestant, I have heard with my own ears and seen with my own eyes protestant teachers held in high regard (Luther, John Piper, Carm to name a few) Catholics as not christian and not saved though they believe catholics hold false beliefs that are a matter of indifference.

Am I right?

OSAS is really bad theology.

 

[TxGodfollower]

For those of you who hold on to the teaching and belief of Once Saved, Always Saved— perseverance of the saints—Do you consider catholic christians to not be christian? As it teaches, OSAS teaches that Jesus’s atonement is enough to cover all past, present, and future sins and it isn’t a matter of works, but by faith alone. And Catholics have faith in Jesus. They are baptized, have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and declare Jesus and Lord and Savior. So if you consider them in error, then you are judging them as not being saved even though you consider Jesus sacrifice enough for all sins and errors. But as a protestant, I have heard with my own ears and seen with my own eyes protestant teachers held in high regard (Luther, John Piper, Carm to name a few) Catholics as not christian and not saved though they believe catholics hold false beliefs that are a matter of indifference.

Am I right?

Just because a Christian has wrong beliefs doesnt change the fact of their salvation. Many people on both sides have said a lot about the other, because man is sinful, prideful, and flawed.

OSAS is really bad theology.

There are lot of verses that can be used to support OSAS, such as John 10:28-30, Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 8:38-39 (nothing can separate us from the love of God expressed through Jesus Christ, which is salvation), Jude 24. But, I dont think that was the point of this thread, if you would like to present an argument in another thread (or one of the many on this topic already here), I’d be happy to see what you have to say and weigh in.

 

[thephilosopher6]

There are lot of verses that can be used to support OSAS, such as John 10:28-30, Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 8:38-39 (nothing can separate us from the love of God expressed through Jesus Christ, which is salvation), Jude 24. But, I dont think that was the point of this thread, if you would like to present an argument in another thread (or one of the many on this topic already here), I’d be happy to see what you have to say and weigh in.

Yet, there are many verses in support that salvation can be lost such as 1 John 5:17, Matthew 10:22, John 15:6, Hebrews 10:26 (to note, everyone in the early Church believed this verse to be talking about someone who was once saved but then lost their salvation) and 2 Peter 2:20-21. The earliest Christians believed salvation could be lost. That’s why some in the time of the early Church waited until their death bed to be baptized. The Church did not encourage this wait though.

Here are some quotes by early Church Fathers concerning salvation being lost.

• “Those who do not obey Him, but being disinherited by Him, have ceased to be His sons.” [Irenaeus, Against Heresies 4.41.3]

“We should fear ourselves, least perchance after [we have come to] the knowledge of Christ, if we do things displeasing to God, we obtain no further forgiveness of sins, but are shut out from His Kingdom. And for that reason, Paul said, ‘For if [God] spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest He also not spare you” (Romans 11:21). [Irenaeus Against Heresies 4.27.2]

“The world returned to sin…and so it is destined to fire. So is the man who after baptism renews his sins.” [Tertullian, On Baptism, Ch. 8]

“Certain ones of those [Gnostics] who hold different opinions misuse these passages. They essentially destroy free will by introducing ruined natures incapable of salvation and by introducing others as being saved in such a way that they cannot be lost.” [Origen, De Principiis, Book 3, Ch. 1.8]

“Only let not Christ be forsaken, so that THE LOSS OF SALVATION and of an eternal home would be feared.” [Cyprian, Treatise 3, Ch. 10]

“He who sins after his baptism, unless he repent and forsake his sins, shall be condemned to Hell-fire.” [Book 2.3.VII: “What Ought to Be the Character of the Initiated.”]
*

OSAS is a horrible misinterpretation of the verses you cited by later Evangelicals who theology in general was already bad.

 

[venite_adoremus]

Cyril, welcome to the forums. Please check the “Stickys” at the top of the forum list.

If salvation is an event, and not a process, every Catholic for a long time has been covered by recitation of the Nicene Creed (just once will do!). Or by renewal of baptismal promises at Easter. Both proclaim that Jesus Christ is both Lord and Savior. The exact verbage of the so-called “Sinner’s Prayer” is not required.

If salvation is a process, and not an event (as testified to by the teaching authority of the Church, and as witnessed to by Sacrament and Holy Scripture), there may be some disappointed souls waking up in Purgatory. Or worse. Jes’ sayin’.

 

[Abu]

TxGodfollower #4
There are lot of verses that can be used to support OSAS, such as John 10:28-30, Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 8:38-39 (nothing can separate us from the love of God expressed through Jesus Christ, which is salvation), Jude 24.

Incorrect.

We are never “saved” until we die and our lives show our situation clearly. We cannot be “saved” until the end of our lives (the Blessed Virgin Mary excepted).

What the suffering, crucifixion and death of Jesus accomplished is our REDEMPTION. We have to work out our SALVATION in fear and trembling.

 

[Kliska]

Incorrect.

We are never “saved” until we die and our lives show our situation clearly. We cannot be “saved” until the end of our lives (the Blessed Virgin Mary excepted).

What the suffering, crucifixion and death of Jesus accomplished is our REDEMPTION. We have to work out our SALVATION in fear and trembling.

I actually think it is put, “We have been saved, are being saved, and will be saved.”

 

[guanophore]

OSAS is really bad theology.

Yes.

But technically, Catholics believe in OSAS also. We just realize that our salvation is not completed until the end of this life, but once we enter into eternal life in fellowship with Him, we can never lose it!

 

[spedteacherita]

I actually think it is put, “We have been saved, are being saved, and will be saved.”

Exactly! I can be assured of my salvation because I can look back and see Christ on the cross and His resurrection. I must daily repent of the sins that I commit and look forward to my death or Christ’s return so I may enter heaven and eternal life in His Presence.

Blessings!

Rita

 

[TexanKnight]

Salvation is something for which we must continually work. It is possible to lose…Paul was clear when he said we must work out our salvation in “fear and trembling”

 

[guanophore]

Just because a Christian has wrong beliefs doesnt change the fact of their salvation.  Many people on both sides have said a lot about the other, because man is sinful, prideful, and flawed.

I agree, TxG. The difference is that the Apostles’ taught that our salvation is still in a state of being “worked out” while we walk the face of the earth. It is not accomplished in this lifetime.

There are lot of verses that can be used to support OSAS

Yes, there are a lot of verses that can be used to support just about anything. Slavery, for instance? That does not equate to good theology.

such as John 10:28-30

28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

No one can snatch us out, but we can sure jump out!

Ephesians 2:8-9,

I always find it interesting that OSAS people stop at v. 9…

10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. v. 10

Catholics wrote the NT, so there is nothing in it that is not Catholic. Of course Catholics believe v. 8-9, but we see in v. 10 that even though salvation is not based upon works, works are an integral part of it.

Romans 8:38-39 (nothing can separate us from the love of God expressed through Jesus Christ, which is salvation),

This is also a common misunderstanding among OSAS folks. God’s love of His creation is not equivalent to salvation. He loves every soul He creates. He loves us so much he allows us to choose to reject Him. Jesus watched as many He loved, and desired to gather under HIs wings, walked away from Him.

Jude 24. But, I dont think that was the point of this thread, if you would like to present an argument in another thread (or one of the many on this topic already here), I’d be happy to see what you have to say and weigh in.

OSAS was not taught by the Apostles, and does not adeately integrate the whole of scripture (without some herculian twisting).

 

[Lenten_ashes]

OSAS is really bad theology.

I wanted so much to believe in it as a protestant.

But there are just so many scriptures that refute it that it became impossible

 

[ffg]

Just because a Christian has wrong beliefs doesnt change the fact of their salvation. Many people on both sides have said a lot about the other, because man is sinful, prideful, and flawed.

Hi TxGodFollower,

Interesting here, totally agree on the second sentence, see it a lot, as all of us are definitely those things.

Have a question related to the first, want to just make sure I understand where you are coming from…

Does one have to be Christian to be included in a ‘fact of their salvation’?

Or maybe you mean anyone who calls themselves ‘Christian’ is in this bucket of ‘fact of their salvation’?

Thanks,

Mike