OSAS and ephesians 4:30

[guanophore]

I will defend my position as I have done in the past…God ordains the end of our salvation as well as the means of our salvation (the elect) and the warnings of scripture work the same way that the warning works in this passage:

So, does that mean everyone just sits back to enjoy this decree that God has made and take no action from a human standpoint to make sure that this saving of life actually comes to pass? No…In order for this to take place, human responsibility and action was necessary…

If God’s decree is to come to fulfillment, the means by which it comes to pass must also take place and has been foreordained by God…He said - DON’T GET OUT OF THE BOAT!! We are told this many times throughout scripture with regard to our salvation…YOU MUST PERSEVERE!!..and those who are of the elect WILL. If not, then they, in fact and indeed, were not chosen by God from the foundation of the world.

God has planned the salvation of some and this foreordaining of the salvation of the elect also involves the means by which they will be saved.

I believe that these warning passages in God’s Word are the means by which God puts fear in the hearts of the elect - that they not turn from Him.

If it is impossible to turn from Him, then why put any fear into people? Why would God want to scare His disciples into perseverance, especially if it is impossible for them to fall away? It just doesn’t hang together logically.

Once justified - the end is predetermined…

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Please remember scripture passages like this one…

Hebrews 3:14 For we **have become **partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

If we hold our faith to the end - we have become partakers which tells us that those who do not persevere were not partakers…

For we are become partakers of Christ (metochoi gar tou Christou gegonamen). Second perfect active of ginomai, “we have become,” not the equivalent of esmen (are). For metochoi see Heb 1:9; 3:1; 6:4. We have become partners with Christ and hence (gar, for) should not be tricked into apostasy. If we hold fast (ean per kataschômen). The same condition as in verse Heb 3:6 with per (indeed, forsooth) added to ean. Jonathan Edwards once said that the sure proof of election is that one holds out to the end. The beginning of our confidence (tên archên tês hupostaseôs). For hupostasis see Heb 1:3; 11:1. These faltering believers (some even apostates) began with loud confidence and profession of loyalty. And now?

You can’t have it both ways, Link. If the partakers are saved, then they are the same partakers in Ch. 6 who later DO commit apostasy. I have heard the tale that partakers are just “associates” of the HS, and not really part of (having become) part of Christ. so, which is it?

We are…have become…and the evidence is that we hold fast…

AND…

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Joh 13:8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.
9 Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head.
10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.

Clean because of the righteousness of Christ…because of the new standing of “JUSTIFIED” - rather than the previous standing of “CONDEMNED”.

A person who has been justified (had their case dismissed) can then go out and commit another crime (or the same type of crime) and enter again into a guilty state. Does that mean he was not acquitted the first time? NOt at all.

 

[guanophore]

1 John gives us a good litmus test as to whether or not we are of the elect…

1Jo 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

1Jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1Jo 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.

1Jo 3:6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. - The salvation that never was…

So, all of you in the OSAS crowd are without sin? This is how you know you are saved, you don’t ever sin anymore? I was reading a previous post about all the NT letters WRITTEN TO BELIEVERS who are engaged in sinful behaviors. Would you say that none of them were saved? Was Peter saved when he denied Christ, or did he not get saved until after that? OR was it not a sin to deny Christ? You litmus test boggles the mind.

 

[guanophore]

Sean:

The elect are not sinless - that is not what those scriptures mean - they simply mean that one does not wallow in premeditated sin with enjoyment and without conviction or chatisement from God.

Oh, maybe this answers my previous question. So, Peter was still saved because he did not “premeditate” his sin of denying Christ?

A person can sin repeatedly, but as long as they didn’t plan it in advance, it is ok. Also, as long as they dont’ “wallow” in it? I couldn’t find that word in the passage…

The judgment spoken of in that passage is referred to as the “Bema” judgment; Bema being transliterated from the Greek.

This is a judgment that is only for believers. As such, it is, as the verse states, “so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, whether good or bad.” (cf 1 Cor. 3:10-15).

In your question, you ask, “how God will reward you for evil?”

First, the verse does not say “reward,” but “recompense,” these are two different words in the Greek, as well as in the English, and they have different meanings. As such, the recompense is a requital for things done, both good and bad, rather than a strict reward for good only; and this literally for, “the things through the body.”

These “things through the body,” do not refer to sin, as sin was judged on the cross (cf Eph 1:7 etc.). Rather, they refer to the ministry performed by the believer while in the body.

So when Paul writes to the Corinthians, and scolds them because one of the believers is having sex with a prostitute (through the body) and says "shall I take the members of Christ and join them to a prostitute) he is not talking about a sin here…he is talking about a ministry that church member was performing? Wonder what that was?

Again, this is a not a judgment of sin, and has nothing to do with a loss of salvation (cf 1 Cor 3:15).

I guess you are saying that the nature of sins changes for an OSAS person. For that person, his sins no longer perform the function of separating him from God, as they used to do before he was saved. If he sins after he is saved, nothing can snatch him from the hand of God, so the power of sin to bring death to him is lost. As the Apostle writes, where sin abounds, grace abounds still more! And death has lost it’s power.

 

[john_ennis]

Salvation: it’s not a done deal.

Read Paul talking about widows’ salvation in 1 Timothy 5. Young widows shouldn’t be put on the list of widows because their situation may be an occasion of sin.

The very fact of their being classified in a certain way (thus being unable to marry) could lead to their turning “away to follow Satan.”

Paul assumes that these women’s salvation, and level of sinfulness, are not inevitable, but depend on choices.

Peace.
John