OSAS and Judas Iscariot

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Many protestant doctrines go against what the Holy Spirit has said in the bible. For example the Spirit says “not by faith alone” clearly in the bible, but they say “by faith alone.”

Different things are being talked about, that’s why. That is like equating all assertions that Jesus is man, with the assertion that He is nothing more than man - context is essential.​

Yet they consider all scripture inspired. However there beliefs do not believe this. For the doctrine of faith alone raises faith above charity which is not correct.

It does no such thing…​

Charity is an action not only internal. Faith and hope are temporary, though good, but charity will last forever.

##…because there can be no charity, if there is not already faith in Christ. Faith is what makes charity possible. Or do we say that those who are without faith, who are therefore not reconciled to the Father, can have the charity which is possible only once one is united with the Father through Christ ? In that case, Caiaphas & Herod & Pilate & the other murderers of Christ could love Christ without having faith in him; for if we can, so might they. The teaching of 1 Cor. 13 remains intact - some Catholics appear to overlook Hebrews 11. ##

The OSAS doctrine is EXTREMELY DANGEROUS in the sense that not everyone precieves it the same way. While some Protestants understand the need to ask for forgiveness, some do not feel the need to.

The Calvinistic doctrine that you should not pray is against the Bible since the many times the letters in the New Testament say “Pray Always.”

Then why did Calvin, and why do Calvinists, insist on the need for prayer ? It is simply wrong to accuse them of teaching that we do not need to pray. Calvin wrote about it, & so did John Bunyan, Vincent, Jonathan Edwards, the Westminster Confession of Faith & the documents that go with it; and many others, from the Puritans to today.​

Here is some of Calvin’s writing on prayer:
ccel.org/c/calvin/prayer/prayer.html

And for much more on prayer, including:

Calvin on the Necessity of Prayer:

“…We clearly see how destitute and devoid of all good things man is, and how he lacks all aids to salvation. Therefore, if he seeks resources to succor him in his need, he must go outside himself and get them elsewhere…But after we have been instructed by faith to recognize that whatever we need and whatever we lack is in God, and in our Lord Jesus Christ, in whom the Father willed all the fullness of his bounty to abide [cf. Col. 1:19; John 1:16] so that we may all draw from it as from an overflowing spring, it remains for us to seek in him, and in prayers to ask of him, what we have learned to be in him.”

Calvin, ‘Institutes of the Christian Religion’, III.xx.1

• go to: .htmlcalvin

and: .htmlprayer

Jesus even prayed himself and he is our brother and our example.

No Calvinist doubts this.​

 

[Image_of_God]

Different things are being talked about, that’s why. That is like equating all assertions that Jesus is man, with the assertion that He is nothing more than man - context is essential.​

It does no such thing… ####…because there can be no charity, if there is not already faith in Christ. Faith is what makes charity possible. Or do we say that those who are without faith, who are therefore not reconciled to the Father, can have the charity which is possible only once one is united with the Father through Christ ? In that case, Caiaphas & Herod & Pilate & the other murderers of Christ could love Christ without having faith in him; for if we can, so might they. The teaching of 1 Cor. 13 remains intact - some Catholics appear to overlook Hebrews 11.​

Then why did Calvin, and why do Calvinists, insist on the need for prayer ? It is simply wrong to accuse them of teaching that we do not need to pray. Calvin wrote about it, & so did John Bunyan, Vincent, Jonathan Edwards, the Westminster Confession of Faith & the documents that go with it; and many others, from the Puritans to today.​

Here is some of Calvin’s writing on prayer:
ccel.org/c/calvin/prayer/prayer.html

And for much more on prayer, including:

Calvin on the Necessity of Prayer:

“…We clearly see how destitute and devoid of all good things man is, and how he lacks all aids to salvation. Therefore, if he seeks resources to succor him in his need, he must go outside himself and get them elsewhere…But after we have been instructed by faith to recognize that whatever we need and whatever we lack is in God, and in our Lord Jesus Christ, in whom the Father willed all the fullness of his bounty to abide [cf. Col. 1:19; John 1:16] so that we may all draw from it as from an overflowing spring, it remains for us to seek in him, and in prayers to ask of him, what we have learned to be in him.”

Calvin, ‘Institutes of the Christian Religion’, III.xx.1

• go to: monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/calvin.html

and: monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/prayer.html

No Calvinist doubts this.​

I already corrected my Calvinistic misinterpretations on another thread.

Secondly does not faith come from trusting God and loving him. You cannot believe in someone you do not love. Faith is a temporary virtue, but charity will last forever, it is in fact the greatest of all virtues. It is love that makes faith possible. Is it not God’s love that gives us faith. Is is not our love for Christ that keeps our faith going. How can a friend believe a friend without first loving him enough to trust him? Paul said that it is love that binds all things. Anything that is not binded is incomplete. Faith without love to begin with is not binded by love and cannot be real faith. For real faith is based on love of the love shown to us by God. It is neither possible to love without believe or believe without loving.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

We are elected into salvation, which is based on future merits that God knows by his infallible foreknowledge. God does not randomly elect people. He elects them based on what he forsees. If he forsees that a person will choose him and listen him and cooperate with his graces, he will choose that person.

True, election is not random. But - the idea that election is based on merits foreseen is that of Molina & of those who agree with his ideas on this matter; it is not the teaching of the Church, & God be thanked it is not.​

Augustine & Thomas are far more Pauline, & far more Christian in their thinking, because they leave God as Sovereign, and don’t sneak in anything that deprives God of His Glory and Sovereignty, as this does. God is either absolute Lord of all creatures, or not Lord at all; Molinism dethrones Him; it is humanistic. ##

Also without works no salvation can be had. It is faith AND works that allows God to give us salvation. You CANNOT seperate faith and works. No one is sure of election.

This goes further than Trent, which allowed for the possibilty that one could know that, if one were favoured with a private revelation. AFAICS, we have a public revelation to exactly that effect. God can save us without any good works at all, because we are saved by grace - & that is what is necessary, according to the Catholic Faith, for works to be good in the first place.​

Election is based on future faith and works

Only if one is a Molinist​

and there is an error in Calvinism. Calvinism teaches that there are “vessels of mercy” and “vessels of justice” completely removing free will and salvific will.

Then you have to show that those words of St.Paul in Romans are being minsinterpreted. The error, if error it be, is that of the Apostle.​

Salvation does begin in God, but we are offered salvation. We must respond yes or no. Either we except salvation with faith and do good works or we say no.

But - only by grace can we hear the offer effectually, respond to it, accept it, and live by that salvation. For all these things, grace is essential, at every moment. The whole process needs to drenched in grace, or we cannot be saved. God’s offer is always sincere, but not without grace can it lead to faith; let alone to the life of those who are being saved (& are for that purpose elected to salvation).​

No one is certain who will be saved, but we are certain that God calls and wants all people to be saved. We can only be saved if we except God’s offer.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I already corrected my Calvinistic misinterpretations on another thread.

Secondly does not faith come from trusting God and loving him. You cannot believe in someone you do not love. Faith is a temporary virtue, but charity will last forever, it is in fact the greatest of all virtues. It is love that makes faith possible. Is it not God’s love that gives us faith. Is is not our love for Christ that keeps our faith going. How can a friend believe a friend without first loving him enough to trust him? Paul said that it is love that binds all things. Anything that is not binded is incomplete. Faith without love to begin with is not binded by love and cannot be real faith. For real faith is based on love of the love shown to us by God. It is neither possible to love without believe or believe without loving.

I don’t believe in the existence of the Grinch, let alone that he stole Christmas. Therefore I do not love the Grinch. Therefore, I cannot trust the Grinch - let alone love him even more.​

Hebr 11:6 But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that]** he is a rewarder** of them that diligently seek him.

blueletterbible.org/kjv/Hbr/Hbr011.html#top#top

God can love the Grinch - but in the Primary World, the so-called “real world” we live in, he has no existence; neither have Bilbo Baggins or Spiderman, except in the Secondary World of the imagination. In their respective SWs, they do exist, but not in what is to us the PW.Therefore, we cannot love or trust them as we can one another, because we all belong to the same PW. God can love things which to us are non-existent, which are in the Secondary World; we can’t. ##

 

[Image_of_God]

True, election is not random. But - the idea that election is based on merits foreseen is that of Molina & of those who agree with his ideas on this matter; it is not the teaching of the Church, & God be thanked it is not.​

Augustine & Thomas are far more Pauline, & far more Christian in their thinking, because they leave God as Sovereign, and don’t sneak in anything that deprives God of His Glory and Sovereignty, as this does. God is either absolute Lord of all creatures, or not Lord at all; Molinism dethrones Him; it is humanistic. ##

This goes further than Trent, which allowed for the possibilty that one could know that, if one were favoured with a private revelation. AFAICS, we have a public revelation to exactly that effect. God can save us without any good works at all, because we are saved by grace - & that is what is necessary, according to the Catholic Faith, for works to be good in the first place.​

Only if one is a Molinist #### Then you have to show that those words of St.Paul in Romans are being minsinterpreted. The error, if error it be, is that of the Apostle. #### But - only by grace can we hear the offer effectually, respond to it, accept it, and live by that salvation. For all these things, grace is essential, at every moment. The whole process needs to drenched in grace, or we cannot be saved. God’s offer is always sincere, but not without grace can it lead to faith; let alone to the life of those who are being saved (& are for that purpose elected to salvation).​

If God does not choose randomly, then what does he choose by? I never said it was not by grace, you say that only by depending on grace can one be saved. You must cooperate with grace in order to be saved by it. Faith by itself is not a complete cooperation with grace. Works are the completion of fatih. Paul also said that we are prepared good works. Jesus said we will be rewarded according to our works. I will go with Jesus for you are misinterpreting Paul. We can believe this and that, but until we act on that belief the faith is dead. Dead faith cannot justify let alone bring salvation.

St. Thomas Aquinas says that the damned damn themselves. Their damnation is according to their own demerits. But this is not the case with the saved. God saves the saved by creating their good works in advance and by giving them faith. They just accept the faith and the good works.

You have the false intepretation that people cause good works to happen and therefore they cannot justify. But James clearly states that people are justified by works. Jesus said that not everyone who says Lord, Lord will be saved but those who do the will of His Father. I never heard of faith as a doing. You must work in order to be saved. I never said that a person is saved by works of the law as you percieve it, but rather works from grace.

 

[Image_of_God]

Let us recall this verse:

James 2,24
See how a person is justified by works and NOT by faith alone.

I’m sorry, but it is not arguable. James and Paul concur with Jesus on this one. A person is justified by works and faith and NOT by faith alone. It is written so crystal clear.

Faith without works is NOT real faith. That is why we say it is by both faith and works that one is saved. You are going to one extreme by saying we do not need to do good to be saved. And some go to another extreme saying my works can save me, but the Catholic Church is write, nor faith alone nor works alone can save. You claim that grace saves. Why not cooperate with it and do good works for this is what works are- a cooperation with grace.

We can have faith but you say that faith alone justifies. But the Holy Spirit differs, He says that he will judge us according to our works and our faith.

YOU CANNOT BE JUSTIFIED BY FAITH ALONE!

I am not being or trying to be uncharitable hear. But you are changing the Bible to fit your belief when it clearly shows us how we are to cooperate with the gift of justification:

FAITH AND GOOD WORKS

You then cannot say that the Bible does not say that one is not justified by works.

I cannot do anything else this is in God’s hands now.

You will never get it until you open your mind and heart with what the Bible is saying. It clearly, clearly states that Good Works are a part of Justification and there is no getting around it. It also says that faith without works is incomplete.