OSAS and the OT

[Mary_Henley]

The Holy Bible RSV Compare to NAB
Matthew Chapter 18

Chapter 18

1* At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” 2 And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them, 3* and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Whoever humbles himself like this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5* "Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me; 6* but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, * it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.
7 "Woe to the world for temptations to sin! * For it is necessary that temptations come, but woe to the man by whom the temptation comes! 8**** And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, * cut it off and throw it away; it is better for you to enter life maimed or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell * of fire. ***
10* “See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always behold the face of my Father who is in heaven. * 12 What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go in search of the one that went astray? 13 And if he finds it, truly, I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine that never went astray. 14 So it is not the will of my * Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish. ***
15 "If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18 Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 19* Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.20 For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them.”
21* Then Peter came up and said to him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?” 22 Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you seven times, but seventy times seven. *
23* “Therefore the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his servants. 24 When he began the reckoning, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents; * 25* and as he could not pay, his lord ordered him to be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and payment to be made. 26* So the servant fell on his knees, imploring him, ‘Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay you everything.’ 27 And out of pity for him the lord of that servant released him and forgave him the debt. 28 But that same servant, as he went out, came upon one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; * and seizing him by the throat he said, ‘Pay what you owe.’ 29 So his fellow servant fell down and besought him, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you.’ 30 He refused and went and put him in prison till he should pay the debt. 31 When his fellow servants saw what had taken place, they were greatly distressed, and they went and reported to their lord all that had taken place. 32 Then his lord summoned him and said to him, **‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you besought me; 33 and should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?’ 34 And in anger his lord delivered him to the jailers, * till he should pay all his debt. 35 So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.” ***
(C)

 

[Mary_Henley]

The Holy Bible NAB Compare to RSV
Matthew Chapter 10

Chapter 10

1 * Then he summoned his twelve disciples * and gave
them authority over unclean spirits to drive them out and to
cure every disease and every illness.
2 * The names of the twelve apostles are these:
first, Simon called Peter, and his brother Andrew;
James, the son of Zebedee, and his brother John;
3 Philip and Bartholomew, Thomas and Matthew the
tax collector; James, the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddeus;
4 Simon the Cananean, the Judas Iscariot who betrayed him.
5 * Jesus sent out these twelve after instructing them
thus, "Do not go into pagan territory or enter a Samaritan town,
6 Go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 As you go, make this proclamation: ‘The kingdom of
heaven is at hand.’
8 * Cure the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers,
drive out demons. Without cost you have received; without cost
you are to give.
9 Do not take gold or silver or copper for your
belts;
10 no sack for the journey, or a second tunic, or
sandals, or walking stick. The laborer deserves his keep.
11 Whatever town or village you enter, look for a
worthy person in it, and stay there until you leave.
12 As you enter a house, wish it peace.
13 If the house is worthy, let your peace come upon
it; if not, let your peace return to you. *
14 * Whoever will not receive you or listen to your
words–go outside that house or town and shake the dust from
your feet.
15 Amen, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for
the land of Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for
that town.
16 "Behold, I am sending you like sheep in the midst
of wolves; so be shrewd as serpents and simple as doves.
17 * But beware of people, for they will hand you over
to courts and scourge you in their synagogues,
18 and you will be led before governors and kings for
my sake as a witness before them and the pagans.
19 When they hand you over, do not worry about how you
are to speak or what you are to say. You will be given at that
moment what you are to say.
20 For it will not be you who speak but the Spirit of
your Father speaking through you.
21 * Brother will hand over brother to death,
and the father his child; children will rise up
against parents and have them put to death.
22 You will be hated by all because of my name, but
whoever endures to the end * will be saved.
23 When they persecute you in one town, flee to
another. Amen, I say to you, you will not finish the towns of
Israel before the Son of Man comes. *
24 No disciple is above his teacher, no slave above
his master.
25 It is enough for the disciple that he become like
his teacher, for the slave that he become like his master. If
they have called the master of the house Beelzebul, * how much
more those of his household!
26 "Therefore do not be afraid of them. Nothing is
concealed that will not be revealed, nor secret that will not
be known. *
27 What I say to you in the darkness, speak in the
light; what you hear whispered, proclaim on the housetops.
***28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but
cannot kill the soul; rather, be afraid of the one who can
destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.
***29 Are not two sparrows sold for a small coin? Yet not
one of them falls to the ground without your Father’s
knowledge.
30 Even all the hairs of your head are counted.
31 So do not be afraid; you are worth more than many
sparrows.
32 * Everyone who acknowledges me before others I will
acknowledge before my heavenly Father.
33 But whoever denies me before others, I will deny
before my heavenly Father.
34 "Do not think that I have come to bring peace
upon the earth. I have come to bring not peace but the sword.
35 For I have come to set
a man ‘against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law;
36 and one’s enemies will be those of his household.’
37 "Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not
worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is
not worthy of me;
38 and whoever does not take up his cross * and follow
after me is not worthy of me.
39 * Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever
loses his life for my sake will find it.
40 “Whoever receives you receives me, * and whoever
receives me receives the one who sent me.
41 * Whoever receives a prophet because he is a prophet
will receive a prophet’s reward, and whoever receives a
righteous man because he is righteous will receive a righteous
man’s reward.
42 And whoever gives only a cup of cold water to one
of these little ones to drink because he is a disciple–amen, I
say to you, he will surely not lose his reward.”

(C)

 

[Linkowski]

The scriptures that you bring forward are for our admonition that we might fear…but those who are not of the elect will fall away and be fruitless.

2 Peter 2:20-22 talks of someone who falls away…but, if we have been born of God, we will overcome the world through Christ rather than the world overcoming us…

1 John 5:4 KJV 4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

John 16:33 KJV 33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Greater is He that is in us than he that is in the world. The truth of the matter is…those that fall away are not of the elect…

1 John 2:19 KJV 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Work out your own salvation: The Greek verb rendered “work out” means “to continually work to bring something to fulfillment or completion.” It cannot refer to salvation by works (Rom. 3:21–24; Eph. 2:8, 9), but it does refer to the believer’s responsibility for active pursuit of obedience in the process of sanctification (Rom. 6:19; 1 Cor. 9:24–27; 15:58; 2 Cor. 7:1; Gal. 6:7–9; Eph. 4:1; Col. 3:1–17; Heb. 6:10, 11; 12:1, 2; 2 Pet. 1:5–11).

Fear and trembling is the attitude with which Christians are to pursue their sanctification. It involves a healthy fear of offending God and a righteous awe and respect for Him (cf. Prov. 1:7; 9:10; Is. 66:1, 2).

MacArthur, John Jr: The MacArthur Study Bible. electronic ed. Nashville : Word Pub., 1997, c1997, S. Php 2:12

There is another famous scripture passage…

Hebrews 6:4-7 KJV 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

BUT…He says…

Hebrews 6:8-9 KJV 8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. 9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

Falling away is not characteristic of the elect who are represented by the fourth person in the parable of the sower…

Luke 8:15 KJV 15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

The fourth person in the parable heard the gospel with a repentant heart over their sins, turning to Christ as Lord in submission - He is that pearl of great price…the treasure in the field.

That person, God says, will bring forth fruit (living faith) with perseverance.

Once born again…you are cleansed forever…

Hebrews 10:14 KJV 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are (being) sanctified.

John 13:10 KJV 10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.

Romans 8:30 guarantees the salvation of the elect…

Romans 8:30 KJV 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Salvation is all of God…even my sooperation was of God…just like the cooperation of the saliors in the example that I gave from Acts 27…The elct will always be the elect…and God gives us scripture to put the fear of God in our hearts - that we may never turn away…

Jeremiah 32:40 KJV 40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

I would like to add one more note…those of you that want free will can have it…I want God’s will - His will be done!! Not mine. Those that want complete free will from a sovereign God are showing forth a form of rebellion. You take your free will - I will take God’s. We have a Soverign God…you cannot have automony and a Soverign God.

 

[Mary_Henley]

The Holy Bible RSV Compare to NAB
2 Timothy Chapter 2

Chapter 2

1 You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus, 2 and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. 3 Share in suffering as a good soldier of Christ Jesus. 4 No soldier on service gets entangled in civilian pursuits, since his aim is to satisfy the one who enlisted him. 5 An athlete is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules. 6 It is the hard-working farmer who ought to have the first share of the crops. 7 Think over what I say, for the Lord will grant you understanding in everything.
8 Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, descended from David, as preached in my gospel, 9 the gospel for which I am suffering and wearing fetters like a criminal. But the word of God is not fettered. ***10 Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain salvation in Christ Jesus with its eternal glory. ***11 The saying is sure:
If we have died with him, we shall also live with him; 12 **if we endure, we shall also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us; 13 if we are faithless, he remains faithful-- for he cannot deny himself. ***
14 Remind them of this, and charge them before the Lord * to avoid disputing about words, which does no good, but only ruins the hearers. 15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth. 16 Avoid such godless chatter, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness, 17 and their talk will eat its way like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18 who have swerved from the truth by holding that the resurrection is past already. They are upsetting the faith of some. 19 But God’s firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let every one who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.”
20 In a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver but also of wood and earthenware, and some for noble use, some for ignoble. 21 If any one purifies himself from what is ignoble, then he will be a vessel for noble use, consecrated and useful to the master of the house, ready for any good work. 22 So shun youthful passions and aim at righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call upon the Lord from a pure heart. ***23 Have nothing to do with stupid, senseless controversies; you know that they breed quarrels. 24 And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kindly to every one, an apt teacher, forbearing, 25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant that they will repent and come to know the truth, 26 and they may escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will. ****
(C)

 

[Mary_Henley]

The Holy Bible RSV Compare to NAB
Luke Chapter 18

Chapter 18

. 7* And will not God vindicate his elect, who cry to him day and night? Will he delay long over them? 8 I tell you, he will vindicate them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of man comes, will he find faith on earth?" …

18* * And a ruler asked him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 19 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone. 20 You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother.’"* 21 And he said, “All these I have observed from my youth.” 22* And when Jesus heard it, he said to him, “One thing you still lack. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” 23 But when he heard this he became sad, for he was very rich. 24* Jesus looking at him said,*** "How hard it is for those who have riches to enter the kingdom of God! 25 For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of** God." 26 Those who heard it said, “Then who can be saved?”* …
(C)

 

[Mary_Henley]

The Holy Bible NAB Compare to RSV
James Chapter 5

Chapter 5

1 *Come now, you rich, weep and wail over your impending
miseries.
2 Your wealth has rotted away, your clothes have become
moth-eaten,
3 your gold and silver have corroded, and that corrosion
will be a testimony against you; it will devour your flesh like
a fire. You have stored up treasure for the last days.
4 Behold, the wages you withheld from the workers who
harvested your fields are crying aloud, and the cries of the
harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts.
5 You have lived on earth in luxury and pleasure; you
have fattened your hearts for the day of slaughter.
6 You have condemned; you have murdered the righteous
one; he offers you no resistance. *
7 *Be patient, therefore, brothers, until the coming of
the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of
the earth, being patient with it until it receives the early
and the late rains. *
8 You too must be patient. Make your hearts firm, because
the coming of the Lord is at hand.
9 Do not complain, brothers, about one another, that you
may not be judged. Behold, the Judge is standing before the
gates.
10 Take as an example of hardship and patience, brothers,
the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord.
11 Indeed we call blessed those who have persevered. You
have heard of the perseverance of Job, and you have seen the
purpose of the Lord, because “the Lord is compassionate and
merciful.”
12 But above all, my brothers, do not swear, either by
heaven or by earth or with any other oath, but let your “Yes”
mean “Yes” and your “No” mean “No,” that you may not incur
condemnation. *
13 Is anyone among you suffering? He should pray. Is
anyone in good spirits? He should sing praise.
14 Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the
presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and
anoint (him) with oil in the name of the Lord,
15 and the prayer of faith will save the sick person, and
the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins, he
will be forgiven. *
16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray
for one another, that you may be healed. The fervent prayer of
a righteous person is very powerful.
17 Elijah was a human being like us; yet he prayed
earnestly that it might not rain, and for three years and six
months it did not rain upon the land.
18 Then he prayed again, and the sky gave rain and the
earth produced its fruit.
19 My brothers, if anyone among you should stray from the
truth and someone bring him back,
20 he should know that whoever brings back a sinner from
the error of his way will save his soul from death and will
cover a multitude of sins. ****

(C)

 

[Milliardo]

So, what you are saying is that salvation completely relies on us…because, with God, we are saved no matter what…

No, i said it’s a two-way process–we work with God. Let us study the verses you cited then:

Hebrews 7:25 KJV 25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Notice–those that come unto Him–exactly as said, the process must be that we approach Him, and that we cling to Him. This is a daily process. Remember that the Enemy is active; therefore, then, the more we must be vigilant, and continue to cooperate in this plan of salvation.

1 Peter 1:5 KJV 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Nothing about OSAS here–Peter rejoices in the fact that God, through His mercy, saved us. And that salvation–this inheritance–is kept in heaven ready for the final time. I would go further reflecting on this one, as this passage actually ties up with the Judgment passages, noting well about this salvation that is to be revealed in its final time. Recall that this Judgment has at its basis our works, and that we can see that in Judgment we see that it is a continuous process; nowhere is it implied that one should merely do something at one point in time, but that we are judged by what we did throughout our lives. This, incidentally as well, is the faith that Jesus wants of us. A faith, alive, not dead. This is the same faith said by Peter here, indirectly. We must remember that the Bible is a tapestry–a whole–not a jumble of isolated passages. We see here then how these passages come together. No way would OSAS make sense if this tapestry is made complete.

Philippians 1:6 KJV 6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Now, if this is proof of OSAS, it is very poor. Notice, if you will, the preceding verse, * because of your partnership for the gospel from the first day until now.* (v.5). A pertnership–my point exactly. It is a partnership–we must work in Him and with Him for that salvation. As if that’s not enough, it is a continuous process–will continue to perform it until the day of Jesus Christ. So salvation is a daily process, one in which we must renew each day. OSAS then? Hardly.

Jeremiah 32:40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

[/font=comic sans ms]I am sorry to say, I fail to see where OSAS is here. It only talks about the truism of the Lord putting that fear of Him in the hearts of men, so that they should not depart from Him. Nowhere does that imply though that they will not depart from Him, and as we see in Israel, they indeed turned their faces from Jesus Himself. So, if this is proof, then it is a very poor one.

(cont’d).

 

[Milliardo]

A group of people including Paul are on a ship and in trouble…Here is what Paul says has been God’s decree…

Acts 27:21-25 KJV 21 But after long abstinence Paul stood forth in the midst of them, and said, Sirs, ye should have hearkened unto me, and not have loosed from Crete, and to have gained this harm and loss. 22 And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: for there shall be no loss of any man’s life among you, but of the ship. 23 For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve, 24 Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee. 25 Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me.

I am sorry again, but what is the point in this? Is this about OSAS? I do not think so; this is merely a point that was made in order to show us that Paul was meant to face Ceasar, and that it is God’s will that he should do so. Nothing there about OSAS. I find this passage illogical in the face of our discussion regarding it.

Acts 27:30-31 KJV 30 And as the shipmen were about to flee out of the ship, when they had let down the boat into the sea, under colour as though they would have cast anchors out of the foreship, 31 Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved.

Again, read my point above. Is this about salvation? No. The passage is about Paul’s journey to face Ceasar, which is what’s meant to be. He must face him, for he pleaded to be tried as a Roman citizen. Nothing there about OSAS at all. Amusing how one can stretch a passage so thinly as to make even something irrelevant to the topic make it seem relevant.

John 13:17-18 KJV 17 If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them. 18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.

Ah, now that might be true; but neither does that say either that Judas could’ve repented of his sin, does it now? No. Would Jesus then have turned him away if he did repent? I don’t think He would. This shows us that it is necessary for Judas to do what he did to fulfill Jesus’ mission of redeeming mankind. Now, Judas still has the choice to do it, and not repent, or do it and repent. It was all up to him. He chose the latter; he did not repent. I repeat, nowhere in that passage does it show us that Judas had no real choice in the matter, nor indeed did he have any recourse to repentance. The choice was very open to him to do so.

Hebrews 7:25 NAS95 25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

Now it is true; He intercedes for us. That is not to be denied; still though, that does not in any way say that we are mere robots and that we cannot decide for ourselves. Again, if that is so, then can you tell me if you think and decide what you do daily, or do you just make things without thinking? In that alone we can see that, far from being mere robots, we think and decide for ourselves what we must do. So again nowhere is it there that says that we are unthinking pawns in a large game of chess. Unless you really think you’re a mere pawn in a game of chess. I cannot do anything then if that is your thought–though I would pity anyone who would think that he has no choice for himself.

1 John 2:1 NAS95 1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

Notice two things here—one, John writes as instruction so they may not sin. If OSAS is true, then he would find no need to give out instructions, as it would merely be a waste of his time. He recognizes the fact then that there is a danger of them falling into sin. The next is more telling–if anyone sins–note, if anyone sins. OSAS then? No. He goes on to say that we have an Advocate in Christ. Indeed so, again undeniable. We see here the truth of clinging to Him, and continually clinging to Him, for us not to fall into sin. So, far from affirming OSAS, this passage actually refutes it! Amazing, isn’t it?

(cont’d)

 

[Milliardo]

Matthew 24:24 NAS95 24 "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.

The elect cannot fall away? I am sorry, but it seems you do not seem to understand this simple passage. It shows here something true–even the elect will be deceived by the false prophets. So, is this a defense of OSAS? Not at all. I am sorry–but it seems this passage only reinforces the truth that anyone, even the elect, can fall away.

 

[Mary_Henley]

The Holy Bible NAB Compare to RSV
Colossians Chapter 2

Chapter 2

1 For I want you to know how great a struggle I am having
for you and for those in Laodicea * and all who have not seen me
face to face,
2 that their hearts may be encouraged as they are brought
together in love, to have all the richness of fully assured
understanding, for the knowledge of the mystery of God,
Christ,
3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and
knowledge.
4 **** I say this so that no one may deceive you by specious***
arguments.
5 For even if I am absent in the flesh, yet I am with you
in spirit, rejoicing as I observe your good order and the
firmness of your faith in Christ.
6 So, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, walk in him,
7 rooted in him and built upon him and established in the
faith as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.
8 See to it that no one captivate you with an empty,
seductive philosophy according to human tradition, according to
***the elemental powers of the world * and not according to
Christ.
*** 9 For in him dwells the whole fullness of the deity *
bodily,
10 and you share in this fullness in him, who is the head
of every principality and power.
11 In him * you were also circumcised with a circumcision
not administered by hand, by stripping off the carnal body,
with the circumcision of Christ.
12 You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were
also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who
raised him from the dead.
13 And even when you were dead (in) transgressions and the
uncircumcision of your flesh, he brought you to life along with
him, having forgiven us all our transgressions;
14 * obliterating the bond against us, with its legal
claims, which was opposed to us, he also removed it from our
midst, nailing it to the cross;
15 despoiling the principalities and the powers, he made a
public spectacle of them, leading them away in triumph by it. *
16 Let no one, then, pass judgment on you in matters of
food and drink or with regard to a festival or new moon or
sabbath. *
17 These are shadows of things to come; the reality belongs
to Christ.
18 Let no one disqualify you, delighting in self-abasement
and worship of angels, taking his stand on visions, * inflated
without reason by his fleshly mind,
19 and not holding closely to the head, from whom the whole
body, supported and held together by its ligaments and bonds,
achieves the growth that comes from God.
20 If you died with Christ to the elemental powers of the
world, why do you submit to regulations as if you were still
living in the world?
21 “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”
22 These are all things destined to perish with use; they
accord with human precepts and teachings.
23 While they have a semblance of wisdom in rigor of
devotion and self-abasement (and) severity to the body, they
are of no value against gratification of the flesh.

(C)

 

[Mary_Henley]

Fear and trembling is the attitude with which Christians are to pursue their sanctification. It involves a healthy fear of offending God and a righteous awe and respect for Him (cf. Prov. 1:7; 9:10; Is. 66:1, 2).

What’s to fear if salvation is assured?

I would like to add one more note…those of you that want free will can have it…I want God’s will - His will be done!! Not mine. Those that want complete free will from a sovereign God are showing forth a form of rebellion. You take your free will - I will take God’s. We have a Soverign God…you cannot have automony and a Soverign God.

Then you want what every good Catholic wants…So when are you coming home?

 

[Griever]

Work out your own salvation: The Greek verb rendered “work out” means “to continually work to bring something to fulfillment or completion.” It cannot refer to salvation by works (Rom. 3:21–24; Eph. 2:8, 9), but it does refer to the believer’s responsibility for active pursuit of obedience in the process of sanctification (Rom. 6:19; 1 Cor. 9:24–27; 15:58; 2 Cor. 7:1; Gal. 6:7–9; Eph. 4:1; Col. 3:1–17; Heb. 6:10, 11; 12:1, 2; 2 Pet. 1:5–11).

Fear and trembling is the attitude with which Christians are to pursue their sanctification. It involves a healthy fear of offending God and a righteous awe and respect for Him (cf. Prov. 1:7; 9:10; Is. 66:1, 2).

MacArthur, John Jr: The MacArthur Study Bible. electronic ed. Nashville : Word Pub., 1997, c1997, S. Php 2:12

** PENANCE is just another catholic thing right? If every sin I’ve committed, even though I repent and feel sorry for doing them is all that is needed, Then why does God tell me to WORK **out my salvation in fear and trembling?

Websters new world Dictionary of the American language.
"Penance: A sacrament, as in the roman catholic church, consisting in a confession of sin with sorrow and the purpose of amendment followed by the** forgiveness of sin**
"Repent: To feel such sorrow for sin or fault as to be disposed to change one’s life for the better; be penitent.
"penitent: one who confesses sin and submits to a penance
"Work: exertion directed to produce or accomplish something; **labor; toil. **

you notice the lack of forgiveness of sin in repent?

Encyclopedic Dictionary of the Bible

Bible, Translations of the Three languages were used for the original texts of the Bible. The Old Testament was written in Hebrew, except for the Books of Wisdom and 2 Maccabees, which were first written in **Greek. ** There are also a number of passages in Aramaic. Of the New Testament books, all were written in Greek, except the Gospel of Matthew, which was originally in Aramaic.

The Septuagint, a Greek translation of the Old Testament, was made in Alexandria between **250 and 100 B.C., and was designed to be used by the large number of Jews in Egypt who had adopted the Greek language. ** This oldest known version of the Bible was called the Septuagint (Lat., seventy) because of the legend that its first five books had been prepared by seventy (or seventy-two) Jewish scholars.

**The Hexapla, compiled by Origen in Palestine about 240 A.D., contains in six parallel columns: the Hebrew text of the Bible, a **Greek **transliteration of the Hebrew, the Septuagint, and **Greek **translations by Aquila, Symmachus, and Theodotion. The Vulgate is the translation of the Bible into Latin by Saint Jerome (340-420). About 383, at the request of Pope Damasus, he began revising the Old Latin version of the Gospels according to the Greek.. Beginning about 387 in Bethlehem,he revised the Latin version of the protocanonical books of the Old Testament according to the Greek in the Hexapla of Origen. About 390 Jerome began a new Latin translation of the whole Old Testament (except five deuterocanonical books) from the original Hebrew. Thus in the Vulgate, the New Testament is his first revision according to the Greek. The Psalms are from his revision of the Old Testament according to the Greek in the Hexapla of Origen. The protocanonical books of the Old Testament are from Jerome’s translation from the Hebrew. The five deuterocanonical books omitted by Jerome (Wisdom, Sirach, Baruch, 1 Maccabees, 2 Maccabees) are from the Old Latin version.

** The first complete translation in English is that attributed to the heretic Wycliff and his disciples (c. 1380).Cardinal Gasquet contended that the so-called Wyclifite Bibles were in reality Catholic versions; and even Protestant scholars are now inclined to believe that little of the actual translation can be credited to Wyclif. **The next famous English Catholic version is the Douay Bible, published between 1582 and 1610. This translation, based mainly on the Vulgate, was the work of Catholic scholars who had been driven from England by religious persecution. They published the New Testament at Rheims in 1582, and the Old Testament in two volumes in 1609 and 1610 at Douay. Bishop Challoner of London published a modernized version of the Douay Bible in 1749-50.

(C) The Bible was translated mostly using Greek so words like “** WORK OUT**” mean exactly what they mean.

**ONLY THE CHURH OF CHRIST IS INFALABLE . So if your following teachings NOT of Gods HOLY **and APASTOLIC CHURH, his church set forth by “PETER The First POPE” well your in trouble because your reality check is gonna be a **BIG one. Hey maybe you just need a little guidance who knows? only the CHURCH does and don’t get me wrong we do our best but we fall just like every one else.

 

[Linkowski]

The elect cannot fall away? I am sorry, but it seems you do not seem to understand this simple passage. It shows here something true–even the elect will be deceived by the false prophets. So, is this a defense of OSAS? Not at all. I am sorry–but it seems this passage only reinforces the truth that anyone, even the elect, can fall away.

What I am finding is that you are misunderstanding much of what I am showing you…I am not sure if it is on purpose or what - I also see you are not understanding scriptures as they are written…case in point…

Matthew 24:24 NAS95 24 "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, **so as to **mislead, if possible, even the elect.

The point of the false teachers, or I should say, the purpose (indicated by “so as to”) was to lead away those true elect…IF IT WERE POSSIBLE…wishful interpretation.

Remove the , if it were possible, and it would read “so as to mislead even the elect”…that would be their purpose…BUT…it IS NOT POSSIBLE.

You also do not want to see the truth of other scriptures either…Acts 27 was to show the soverignty of God in saying - THEY WILL BE SAVED on the ship - But, he also ordained the shipmen staying on the boat - WHERE WAS THEIR FREE WILL…they had free will to get off - BUT that would have rendered God’s decree false. So, God also had ordained for them to stay on the ship. God’s soverignty and man’s responsibility working together but God had ordained both. Same with the elect. We must persevere but we will - and it is all of God…

When it comes down to it…your faith is in self to cooperate - but I say, even our cooperation is from God and that is scripturally illustrated in this story in Acts 27.

 

[heisenburg]

Link…

Once again, I do appreciate your comments. However, i would like to stop the thread from continuing down it’s current path.

You and I can agree that both feel there is ample justification for our understanding in the NT… You feel that OSAS is preeminent in the NT, we disagree with your understanding and provide you with counter understandings, as well as verses we feel are opposed to OSAS. We both however Disagree on what the other is interpreting…

That is why I want to look at the OT, not the NT. All of your verses but one came from the New. But as mentioned, if this is such an important document, where is it in the Old. This gets back to the OT is the Shadow of the New. Where is OSAS shadow in the old, and/or where is its shadow in Jewish Worship…

I appreciate you providing your verses, I really do, and I am not putting the OT over the NT. What I am simply saying is that if true, the theology of OSAS must be in both the old and the new…

Though you dont agree with our understanding, we have given you and understanding of the New that supports our theology, but we can also use, if needed, the OT to support our theology as well.

Using only the OT please… what verses can you use to provide. You have given one so far, are their others.

If you cannot provide support for OSAS in the OT, then it cannot be true, that is what I am driving at… Where is OSAS in either the OT and/or Jewish Worship.

I do NOT want this to become another works salvation thread… I want to focus on the OT.

But I appreciate you taking the time thus far to answer my questions

In Christ

 

[Griever]

What I am finding is that you are misunderstanding much of what I am showing you…I am not sure if it is on purpose or what - I also see you are not understanding scriptures as they are written…case in point

Matthew 24:24 NAS95 24 "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.

The point of the false teachers, or I should say, the purpose (indicated by “so as to”) was to lead away those true elect…IF IT WERE POSSIBLE…wishful interpretation.

Remove the , if it were possible, and it would read “so as to mislead even the elect”…that would be their purpose…BUT…it IS NOT POSSIBLE.

You also do not want to see the truth of other scriptures either…Acts 27 was to show the soverignty of God in saying - THEY WILL BE SAVED on the ship - But, he also ordained the shipmen staying on the boat - WHERE WAS THEIR FREE WILL…they had free will to get off - BUT that would have rendered God’s decree false. So, God also had ordained for them to stay on the ship. God’s soverignty and man’s responsibility working together but God had ordained both. Same with the elect. We must persevere but we will - and it is all of God…

When it comes down to it…your faith is in self to cooperate - but I say, even our cooperation is from God and that is scripturally illustrated in this story in Acts 27.

Who gives us authority in the understanding of scripture? Does MAN? so a man spends five years of his-her wages on college, spends seven years getting a doctorate in theology and comes out knowing more and understanding more than those men GOD himself has given the authority to interpret? and if authority comes thru the HOLY SPIRIT directly to every man why are there several thousand different interpretations of scripture? just how many HOLY SPIRITS do protestants think there are then? If man is able to obtain this knowledge without GOD then why is there GOD???. Was GOD wrong in placing his authority in PETER? By calling yourself a protestant you are calling GOD an idiot** PROTESTANTS DONT** seem to understand that the their reformation came about thru a group of people who did not believe nor want to believe that Christ gave the early church fathers the authority to help guide, govern and teach us what we ourselves cannot fully understand… WITHOUT The men GOD called to build his church PETER, PAUL, JAMES and so on “*that were irrefutably catholic *” there is no authority there is only CHAOS AND DARKNESS…

 

[Griever]

The Holy Bible RSV Compare to NAB

2 Peter Chapter 2

Chapter 2

1* But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their licentiousness, and because of them the way of truth will be reviled. 3 And in their greed they will exploit you with false words; from of old their condemnation has not been idle, and their destruction has not been asleep.

4 For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell * and committed them to pits of nether gloom to be kept until the judgment; 5* if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven other persons, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6* if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction and made them an example to those who were to be ungodly; 7* and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the licentiousness of the wicked 8 (for by what that righteous man saw and heard as he lived among them, he was vexed in his righteous soul day after day with their lawless deeds), 9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trial, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment, 10 and especially those who indulge in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority.

Bold and wilful, they are not afraid to revile the glorious ones, 11 whereas angels, though greater in might and power, do not pronounce a reviling judgment upon them before the Lord. 12 But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and killed, reviling in matters of which they are ignorant, will be destroyed in the same destruction with them, 13 suffering wrong for their wrongdoing. They count it pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their dissipation, * carousing with you. 14 They have eyes full of adultery, insatiable for sin. They entice unsteady souls. They have hearts trained in greed. Accursed children! 15*  Forsaking the right way they have gone astray; they have followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved gain from wrongdoing, 16*  but was rebuked for his own transgression; a dumb *** spoke with human voice and restrained the prophet's madness.

17 These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm; for them the nether gloom of darkness has been reserved. 18 For, uttering loud boasts of folly, they entice with licentious passions of the flesh men who have barely escaped from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption; for whatever overcomes a man, to that he is enslaved. **20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and the sow is washed only to wallow in the mire. ***
(C)

Here’s a bit a scripture from the first POPE to whom Christ gave AUTHORITY over heaven and earth. [our first and only authority after Christ.] which PETER then passed to the next POPE and so on… all the way to Benedict XVI

This also concerns false prophets “PROTESTANT LEADERS” and those who chose to follow them.
It also debunks OSAS “verses 20-22”

 

[heisenburg]

Griever, I understand your zeal… and Appreciate it, however, I don’t want to turn this thread into an authority of the Pope issue…

I am not trying to be rude, and apologize if it came out as such… I am more interested in the thread being about can OSAS be found in the OT and Jewish Worship.

In Christ

 

[Milliardo]

.The point of the false teachers, or I should say, the purpose (indicated by “so as to”) was to lead away those true elect…IF IT WERE POSSIBLE…wishful interpretation.

Wishful interpretation? Now that’s a new one, and very funny at that. I think the passage is very clear–the false prophets will come and lead astray even the elect. I don’t see where that “wishful interpretation” would come in.

Remove the , if it were possible, and it would read “so as to mislead even the elect”…that would be their purpose…BUT…it IS NOT POSSIBLE.

Why would one even do that? Then you would make it say what it never intended for it to say. I see now who is making a wishful interpretation here–and it isn’t me. I am sorry, but making it say what it doesn’t intend to say is deceit, plain and simple.

You also do not want to see the truth of other scriptures either…Acts 27 was to show the soverignty of God in saying - THEY WILL BE SAVED on the ship - But, he also ordained the shipmen staying on the boat - WHERE WAS THEIR FREE WILL…they had free will to get off - BUT that would have rendered God’s decree false.

I don’t deny God’s sovereignty, but there is something that needs to be clear here–the point of the passage is to show us that it is Paul’s destiny to go and meet Caesar since he asked to be tried as a Roman citizen. It is necessary that those with him be alive as well since to be otherwise would then make Paul, inevitably, free to escape. It is necessary therefore that they live, and deliver him safely before Caesar and face his judgment. Hhmm…nothing there about OSAS. Stretching that passage thinly, like I said, will make it to intend something else. It is simply a narrative to show us that Paul’s martyrdom is sealed, and that he should glory to God by dying for Him.

 

[heisenburg]

Sorry for the Bump… these are just questions I think all OSAS believing protestants should (or at least would) find interesting and important and I don’t want to let the thread die…

As Mentioned…

Can you find OSAS in the OT and/or in Jewish worship.
If you can… please provide as I am honestly curious and would like to see.
(please, no… well, I found This in the bible in my personal studies… I am looking for accepted teachings by OSAS Pastors… )

If it cant be found, how do you as a OSAS protestant get around the fact that all true teachings of Christ have some shadow in the OT. The larger the theology, the larger the Shadow. Since OSAS is a core theology for many Protestants, should there not be a Shadow of it in the OT?

Or am I misunderstanding something… Which Is possible and have done before…

In Christ