OSAS Convert Story

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arieh0310

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I am in a debate with a fallen away Catholic who is currently a Baptist preacher. He is of the “once saved, always saved, can’t ever lose it even if you wanted to” variety (to the point where he won’t even acknowledge you as a Christian unless you have accept Jesus exactly as he ascribes).

My biblical, logical, and early Church proofs have fallen on deaf ears and my last hope may be a really good conversion story. What I am looking for is a text conversion story of a person who was (preferably) a Baptist preacher who subscribed wholly to the OSAS doctrine and is now a Catholic. Anyone have something like that?
 
I think David Currie was a Baptist. His book is Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic. He started out writing it just as a letter to his family explaining why he was converting to Catholicism. I’m not sure if he was a preacher, though.
 
arieh0310 said:
I am in a debate with a fallen away Catholic who is currently a Baptist preacher. He is of the “once saved, always saved, can’t ever lose it even if you wanted to” variety (to the point where he won’t even acknowledge you as a Christian unless you have accept Jesus exactly as he ascribes).

My biblical, logical, and early Church proofs have fallen on deaf ears and my last hope may be a really good conversion story. What I am looking for is a text conversion story of a person who was (preferably) a Baptist preacher who subscribed wholly to the OSAS doctrine and is now a Catholic. Anyone have something like that?
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This site might help you:

angelfire.com/ms/seanie/baptists/baptistindex.html

I believe this passage from 1 John (2:19), “They have gone from among us, but they never really belonged to us; if they had belonged to us, they would have stayed with us. But this was to prove that not one of them belonged to us,” is one that your friend might have brought up to you. You might point out to him, that one can only know this post facto. Up to that time they were seen as being “saved” and probably considered themselves to be such, even testifying that they were “eternally secure”. It seems that one is supposed to come to this “knowledge” of “eternal security” because one has “accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior.” But if one “knows” he is saved, and yet leaves Christ and His Church, then that person was wrong, wasn’t he, in his estimation of his own salvation? So how does his original proclamation of surety answer his subsequent rejection of Christ?

So the OSAS theory gives the believer in it just as much uncertainty as he would bewail among Catholic the faithful; in fact, it gives someone who WILL fall away in the future a false sense of security, since he believes that this cannot happen – then it does.
 
arieh0310 said:
…He is of the “once saved, always saved, can’t ever lose it even if you wanted to” variety (to the point where he won’t even acknowledge you as a Christian unless you have accept Jesus exactly as he ascribes).
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What I find interesting is the fact that most OSAS folks will deny the ability of infallible interpretation and then claim that unless you have 100% certainty of your salvation, you’re not saved.

Which is it? If you can’t be 100% certain about your interpretation, how can you be 100% certain about salvation?

mystified

God Bless,
RyanL
 
RyanL said:
What I find interesting is the fact that most OSAS folks will deny the ability of infallible interpretation and then claim that unless you have 100% certainty of your salvation, you’re not saved.

Which is it? If you can’t be 100% certain about your interpretation, how can you be 100% certain about salvation?

mystified

God Bless,
RyanL
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I never thought of that. Good point. It’s kinda like people who insist that Scripture is so clear to any Joe Schmo it disposes of the need for an authoritative Church, yet when they get to Matt 16, they bring out an army of scholars writing reams of paper about a part of word like *petra *in a tragicomic attempt to make sure no one entertains the possibility of Peter being the rock.
 
Ya know, all the examples of illogicality are totally lost on this guy, that is why I am trying to find a good (short) convert story for this guy. I would love to find one like David Currie’s but not in book form.
 
I don’t know what to recommend if your friend won’t read any books. That’s a pity because Steve Ray’s Crossing the Tiber is the best conversion story from Baptist to Catholic out there. He wasn’t a Baptist minister himself, but he was the son of a Baptist minister. It might be useful to you.
 
Della said:
I don’t know what to recommend if your friend won’t read any books. That’s a pity because Steve Ray’s Crossing the Tiber is the best conversion story from Baptist to Catholic out there. He wasn’t a Baptist minister himself, but he was the son of a Baptist minister. It might be useful to you.
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Hey, thanks for the reminder. I have actually talked on the phone with Steve Ray before (when I was a Protestant). Maybe I can convince him to right a smaller conversion story if he doesn’t have one.
 
If you want to have some fun (and maybe make some progress too), ask him what he thinks of this person, who was certain at one point that he was saved:

amazon.com/Losing-Faith-Preacher-Atheist/dp/1877733075

Now he may say “that person was never saved to begin with!” OK, this former evangelical ordained minister, missionary, traveling evangelist, Christian songwriter and performer was never really saved to begin with. Obviously that means that any person who thinks they are saved might not be saved. Including him. OSAS is useless if an individual does not know if he is one of the “really” saved or just one of the “mistakenly” saved.
 
VociMike said:
If you want to have some fun (and maybe make some progress too), ask him what he thinks of this person, who was certain at one point that he was saved:

amazon.com/Losing-Faith-Preacher-Atheist/dp/1877733075

Now he may say “that person was never saved to begin with!” OK, this former evangelical ordained minister, missionary, traveling evangelist, Christian songwriter and performer was never really saved to begin with. Obviously that means that any person who thinks they are saved might not be saved. Including him. OSAS is useless if an individual does not know if he is one of the “really” saved or just one of the “mistakenly” saved.
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Nope, that guy wont work. He was an Assemblies of God minister and the AoG don’t hold to absolute eternal security, they hold out that one can throw away salvation (if you went completely apostate).

You see, I told him my story. Before I became Catholic I was “saved” at an evangelical rally where the preacher told me about eternal security and I responded to the call. However, since it was a rally and not affiliated with any church I had to go church shopping. I ended up at a Foursquare church (which like the AoG do not hold to absolute eternal security). So, in his eyes I was never saved in the first place.

I am thinking this guy is a lost cause, but I just don’t want to quit on him. I am hoping that there is some conversion story out there that fits his mold and he cannot explain away.
 
arieh0310 said:
Nope, that guy wont work. He was an Assemblies of God minister and the AoG don’t hold to absolute eternal security, they hold out that one can throw away salvation (if you went completely apostate).
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But OSAS, if true, is true for all believers, even those who don’t believe it, right? So it would even be true for an AoG believer, wouldn’t it?

Now if OSAS is only true for those who believe it, that’s a new one on me!
 
VociMike said:
But OSAS, if true, is true for all believers, even those who don’t believe it, right? So it would even be true for an AoG believer, wouldn’t it?

Now if OSAS is only true for those who believe it, that’s a new one on me!
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Nope, this guy states that you are only truly saved if you believe in the “Gospel of Grace” as defined as the belief that you are saved by grace alone, through faith alone and you can never lose that salvation even if you really wanted to. If you do not really, really believe in this exact formulation at the “altar call” then you were never saved to begin with and weren’t even ever a Christian (you were just fooling yourself).

He is pretty hard core about it, don’t know where to go now.
 
arieh0310 said:
I am in a debate with a fallen away Catholic who is currently a Baptist preacher. He is of the “once saved, always saved, can’t ever lose it even if you wanted to” variety (to the point where he won’t even acknowledge you as a Christian unless you have accept Jesus exactly as he ascribes).

My biblical, logical, and early Church proofs have fallen on deaf ears and my last hope may be a really good conversion story. What I am looking for is a text conversion story of a person who was (preferably) a Baptist preacher who subscribed wholly to the OSAS doctrine and is now a Catholic. Anyone have something like that?
Click to expand...
Most OSASers are only thinking about sins like muder, adultery, etc…however you will find quite often that osas doesnt count if the person converts to Catholicism 😃
 
Per an inspiration from John Martignoni (sp), I’ve started going through the bible line by line looking at the issue of OSAS. Im noit very far yet, but Ive already got over 30 bible versus that make no sense. My list continues to grow, but here is what i have so far. Ask them do they beleive in bible alone? or do they beleive in the peicemill bible alone. These are questions, and not interpretations so they cant through the “your interpreting that verse wrong” anyway… here is my list… hope it helps…

Appologize to Moderators if its too long

1 Thes 5:8 If our salvation is assured, why are we hoping? Doesn’t hoping for something imply we have not yet attained for sure that something?

1 Thes 5:11 Why do we need to encourouge one to build up each other if it has already been gained for sure.

1 Thes 1:3 If it has already been attained for sure, why are we hopign for it. Havent we already received it based on assured salvation?

2 Thes 1:5 Should Paul be saying “so that you will be judged worthy” and not “so that you May be judged worthy”. Havent they already been judged worthy?

2 Thes 2:1-3 If we can never loose our salvation, why does Paul warn us not to be deceieved and loose ourselves? Remember, paul is talking to the Redemed in this case.

1 Tim 1 19 If we can never Loose our salvation, why is Paul warning against those that have/will shipwrech their faith

1 Tim 3:6 Why is it that a recent Convert cannont be a leader? Wouldn’t OSAS ensure that he will be able to maintain, and therefore teach about his faith?

1 Tim 4:1 How can people turn away from the faith if they are ensured? Only those that are in the faith can turn from it, or is it that these people that follow decitful spirits are still saved.

1 Tim 4:10 Why would we hope for the living god, should we already have it and therefore not need to hope?

1 Tim 5:11,12 If we can never loose our salvation, why does Paul say for women under 60 to remarry lest they be astranged from christ? This shouldn’t be a worry if we can never loose our salvation. He even goes so far as to say they will receive condemnation. How can the condemned be saved?

1 Time 5:15 How can someone turn away if they were already saved?

1 Tim 5:20 Why reprimand believers that sin if their salvation is already assured?

1 Tim 6:10 How can people stray from the faith (and salvation) if their salvation is assured?

1 Tim 6:14 Why is paul saying we must hold the commandments till the arrival of christ? Shouldn’t our assured salvations ay we don’t have to?

1 Tim 6:21 How can people deviate form the faith (and salvation) if their salvation is assured?

Heb 3:8 Why would the Holy spirit ask the redemed not to harden their hearts and then warn them that those with harden hearts were not spared in the wilderness? Wouldn’t the redemened with the harden heart still enter the kingdom?

2 Tim 1:18 Why would Paul pray that God will grant a redemed mercy? Doesn’t he know the redemned are already saved and don’t need his prayers?

2 Tim 2:10 Why would paul say that the redemed MAY be saved? Shouldn’t the redemned already be saved?

2 Tim 2:12 Why are we to perserver? Shouldn’t our one time repentance be enough?

2 Tim 2:18 How can soemone deviate from the truth if they were not already in the truth? Wouldn’t their assured salvation ensure they remain in the truth?

2 Tim 3:14 Why is paul asking Timothy to remain Faithful. Shouldn’t he remain as such if his salvation is assured?

2 Tim 4:3,4 How can assured salvation allow someone to be diverted from the truth?

2 Tim 4:6,7 In six, paul basically says he is about to die. If his salvation was assured long ago, why is he stating how important it was for him to have kept the faith and perservered? Wouldn’t he have done it anywya? Would it not have mattered if he perservered?

Titus 1:2 Why would Paul Hope for salvation, shouldn’t he already have it?

Titus 2:13 Why are we hoping? Shouldn’t we already be saved?

Titus 3:7 Why is Paul saying Might… shouldn’t he already know of his assurance?

Heb 4:1 How can the redemed fail? Shouldn’t those that are saved be assured that they will never lose it?

Heb 4:6 How can someone who has formaly received the word (fully accepted) not enter because of disobedinece

Heb 4:11 Why Strive? I thought the redemed already had it assured and didn’t need to strive

In Christ
 
arieh0310 said:
Nope, this guy states that you are only truly saved if you believe in the “Gospel of Grace” as defined as the belief that you are saved by grace alone, through faith alone and you can never lose that salvation even if you really wanted to. If you do not really, really believe in this exact formulation at the “altar call” then you were never saved to begin with and weren’t even ever a Christian (you were just fooling yourself).

He is pretty hard core about it, don’t know where to go now.
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:bigyikes: :bigyikes: Have you ever asked him to prove his line of thinking. I mean, where’s the “Gospel of Grace” in the Bible? He is Bible only, right? Because if he is he should be able to point out his belief system in the Bible, and if he isn’t then how does he know he’s not just following a man made tradition? Doesn’t the Bible say that only those who persevere to the end will be saved? That you have to remain in His kindness or you will be cut off? Didn’t Paul say something to the effect that he feared he himself might be disqualified from attaining salvation? Does he think Paul could have just been fooled into thinking he was a Christian? I mean, this sure doesn’t sound to me like any sort of OSAS that your “friend” is ascribing to. Maybe you should put the burden of proof on him…

If he still won’t listen I would suggest that you ceremoniously shake the dust from your feet and gather up your pearls. At least you can’t say you didn’t try. Then keep praying for him but don’t bother trying to reason with him after that. Maybe down the road something you had said will have stuck and the Holy Spirit will open his eyes to the truth.

God bless.
 
I have shaken the dust off of my feet a few months back but he has crept back in my mind. He just blows off my biblical citations (the same ones mentioned here as well as many more), he refuses to see any value to the testimony of the Early Church Fathers, and sees no contradiction in his logic. However, he seems to hold fast to the idea that one who is saved according to his formulation will never stray. That is why I am looking for a good OSAS convert story. Then again, maybe he will just say the convert is lying (which is pretty much what he told me).

Oh well, probably a lost cause.
 
And he’d probably be the only one in his version of heaven. :rolleyes:
 
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