OSAS: Devil gives up tempting you?

[LilyM]

Techno:

Again, Eternal Security is not PERMISSION to sin. Just as paying a speeding ticket is not permission to break the speed limit from here on out. Sin, even for Eternal Security holding Christians, causes a separation from God spiritually speaking. There are consequences, physical and spiritual for sin, especially unrepented, routinely committed sin. But again, it does not cause you to lose your salavation.

Also, there is a notion of “rewards” and “resposibilities” in heaven. remember “Because you have been faithful in this small thing, you will have great responsibilites in the kingdon.” Sin will have repercussions in heaven. You go, but you will not be entrusted with things if you were not faithful in life. But I understand that thsi begs the questions. What will be doing in heaven? Apparently, we will having certain resposnbilities in addition to or possibly to complement our eternal worship of God.

Tim

But again, this idea is totally unscriptural. We see in the gospels exactly who Christ condemns - it is those who fail to feed the hungry, help the sick and naked etc etc.

He doesn’t say to those who fail in these things ‘you’re still saved, but you’ll have a lesser place in heaven’, he says ‘get away from me, you accursed, to the fire prepared for the devil and his angels…’

Forget murderers, even those who fail in basic Christian charity run the risk of eternal hellfire! No sinner is safe.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I agree. But confession to whom? Eternal Security holders say that there is one mediator between us and the Father and that is Jesus. So as you might guess, Sacramental Confession is problematic to most Protestants.

Agreed. Here’s why:

Some people object to the Sacrament of Reconciliation (commonly called “Confession”) on the basis that they only need to confess their sins directly to God rather than to a priest. Is this perspective correct? Let’s see what the Bible has to say.

Leviticus 5:5-6
5 " 'When anyone is guilty in any of these ways, he must confess in what way he has sinned 6 and, as a penalty for the sin he has committed, he must bring to the LORD a female lamb or goat from the flock as a sin offering; and the priest shall make atonement for him for his sin.

“The priest shall make atonement.” Clearly in the Old Testament, the priesthood existed to offer sacrifices and make atonement for the sins committed by the people. Does this idea continue in the New Testament?

Hebrews 10:1
1 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves.

The Old Testament prefigures and foreshadows New Testament truths; the Old is revealed more fully in the New. So, what does the New Testament teach us about confession of sin?

1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

We should confess our sins to one another. But do we confess our sins to just anybody?

James 5:13-16
13 Is any one of you in trouble? He should pray. Is anyone happy? Let him sing songs of praise. 14 Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed.

Here the word of God tells us to call the elders (the Greek word is presbuteroi, or “presbyter”, from which the English word “priest” is derived. So, in this context, James is telling us to send for the priests who will pray over someone who is sick, and if he has sinned, he will be forgiven. Recalling the passage from Leviticus above, we see there is a strong parallel between the priests of the Old Testament who made atonement for sin and the presbyters or priests of the New Testament to whom we confess sins for forgiveness. But this sounds like blasphemy! Can men really forgive sins? The Bible itself asks this question.

Mark 2:5-7
5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” 6Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, 7"Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?"

So, does the Bible teach that “God alone” can forgive sins? Not at all! This quotation is from the scribes who did not accept Jesus. So what does the Bible actually teach? Let’s consider the same incident from the book of Matthew.

Matthew 9:1-7
1 Jesus stepped into a boat, crossed over and came to his own town. 2Some men brought to him a paralytic, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.” 3 At this, some of the teachers of the law said to themselves, “This fellow is blaspheming!” 4 Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, “Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts? 5Which is easier: to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’? 6But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins…” Then he said to the paralytic, “Get up, take your mat and go home.” 7And the man got up and went home. 8When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to men.

The Bible teaches that God had given the authority to forgive sins “to men”. Note that this is not “to a man” but “to men” – plural. So, it is not only Jesus who has authority to forgive sins – “men” have this authority, also. This sounds like a “hard teaching”…is there confirmation of this in the Bible?

(cont.)

 

[Randy_Carson]

John 20:21-23
21 Again Jesus said,"Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you."22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

How did God send Jesus into the world? With the authority to forgive sins as we saw in Matthew 9:6. How does Jesus send the Apostles? In the same way that the Father had sent Him…with the authority to forgive sins as we have just seen in John 20:23. How could the Apostles obey the commandment of Jesus to forgive sins unless they heard these sins confessed?

Only God can forgive sins, but he has chosen to do so through the ordained men of the priesthood and the Sacrament of Reconciliation that He Himself instituted.

 

[cpayne]

I think the Devil would continue to tempt the OSAS person because by his or her debauchery, others who are not saved could be ensnared.

Let’s say you have 10,000 OSAS people in a big orgy in Ft. Lauderdale on Spring Break…

Lot of non-believers will want to strip and get in on the fun…

Satan loves the phrase, “Everybody else is doing it…”

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

I’m not contributing anything to the discussion; it’s just that this image struck me as hilariously funny. Big orgy going on: “Do not join in, please. We are OSAS; you, on the other hand, might not be.”

 

[bilop]

Yes…NOTHING can pluck me from the hand of the Father. I could switch to another religion, even a non christian one, or becom an atheist. I could commit murder. Anything I do or fail to do will not overpower the covering of the blood of Christ.

No offense intended, but this makes no sense. In Matthew, Ch 19 we find:

16 And behold one came and said to him: Good master, what good shall I do that I may have life everlasting? 17 Who said to him: Why asketh thou me concerning good? One is good, God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18 He said to him: Which? And Jesus said: Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness. 19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

Is Jesus lying? We can break the commandments, die unrepentent, and still be saved? I can’t see how this is Scriptural, or even Christian.

God Bless you in your journey towards the Church.

 

[mikeledes]

Here is an interesting verse:

1 Timothy 3:6

6He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil.

1 Timothy 3:6

**6and not a new convert, so that he will not become (L)conceited and fall into the (M)condemnation incurred by the devil. **

Note that the cause of falling “under the same judgement as the devil” is becoming conceited. If the person was never saved to begin with, then this passage would make no sense.

God bless,
Michael

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Hi,
I have no intentions of getting into this thread other then posting the following. I am posting this only because I feel many here have many misconceptions about OSAS and I would like to just simply put out what the real belief is. I dont expect any of you to believe it nor am I trying to persuade you , just trying to clear up some misconceptions. Thank you and God Bless:thumbsup:

Once a person is saved are they always saved? When people come to know Christ as their Savior, they are brought into a relationship with God that guarantees their salvation as eternally secure. Numerous passages of Scripture declare this fact. (a) Romans 8:30 declares, “And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.” This verse tells us that from the moment God chooses us, it is as if we are glorified in His presence in heaven. There is nothing that can prevent a believer from one day being glorified because God has already purposed it in heaven. Once a person is justified, his salvation is guaranteed - he is as secure as if he is already glorified in heaven.

(b) Paul asks two crucial questions in Romans 8:33-34 “Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died more than that, who was raised to life - is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.” Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? No one will, because Christ is our advocate. Who will condemn us? No one will, because Christ, the One who died for us, is the one who condemns. We have both the advocate and judge as our Savior.

(c) Believers are born again (regenerated) when they believe (John 3:3; Titus 3:5). For a Christian to lose his salvation, he would have to be un-regenerated. The Bible gives no evidence that the new birth can be taken away. (d) The Holy Spirit indwells all believers (John 14:17; Romans 8:9) and baptizes all believers into the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13). For a believer to become unsaved, he would have to be “un-indwelt” and detached from the Body of Christ.

(e) John 3:15 states that whoever believes in Jesus Christ will “have eternal life.” If you believe in Christ today and have eternal life, but lose it tomorrow, then it was never “eternal” at all. Hence if you lose your salvation, the promises of eternal life in the Bible would be in error. (f) For the most conclusive argument, I think Scripture says it best itself, “For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 8:38-39). Remember the same God who saved you is the same God who will keep you. Once we are saved we are always saved. Our salvation is most definitely eternally secure!

Recommended Resource: Eternal Security by Charles Stanley.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Also

“Is eternal security a “license” to sin?”

Answer: The most frequent objection to the doctrine of eternal security is that it supposedly promotes the idea that Christians can live any way that they want to - and still be saved. While this is “technically” true, that is not the “essence” of eternal security. A person who has truly accepted Jesus Christ as his or her Savior “can” live a sinful life - but he or she “will” not do so. We must draw a distinction between how a Christian should live - and what a person must do in order to receive salvation.

The Bible is abundantly clear that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus Christ alone (John 3:16; Ephesians 2:8-9; John 14:6). A person is saved by faith - faith alone. The moment a person truly believes in Jesus Christ, he/she is saved and secure in that salvation. Salvation is not gained by faith, but then maintained by works. The Apostle Paul addresses this issue in Galatians 3:3, “Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?” If we are saved by faith, our salvation is also maintained and secured by faith. We cannot earn our own salvation. Therefore, we cannot earn the maintenance of our salvation either. It is God who maintains our salvation (Jude verse 24). It is God’s hand that holds us firmly in His grasp (John 10:28-29). It is God’s love that nothing can separate us from (Romans 8:38-39).

Any denial of eternal security is, in its essence, a belief that we must maintain our own salvation by our own good works. This is completely antithetical to salvation by grace. We are saved because of Christ’s merits, not our own (Romans 4:3-8). To claim that we must obey God’s Word or live a godly life to maintain our salvation is equal to saying that Jesus’ death was not sufficient to pay the penalty for our sins. Jesus’ death was absolutely sufficient to pay for all of our sins - past, present, and future, pre-salvation and post-salvation (Romans 5:8; 1 Corinthians 15:3; 2 Corinthians 5:21).

So, with all that said, does this mean that a Christian can live any way he/she wants to and still be saved? This is essentially a hypothetical question, because the Bible makes it clear that a true Christian will not live “any way he/she wants to.” Christians are new creations (2 Corinthians 5:17). Christians demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23), not the acts of the flesh (Galatians 5:19-21). 1 John 3:6-9 clearly states that a true Christian will not live in continual sin. In response to the accusation that grace promotes sin, the Apostle Paul declared, “What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?” (Romans 6:1-2).

Eternal security is not a “license” to sin. Rather, it is the security of knowing that God’s love is guaranteed for those who trust in Christ. Knowing and understanding God’s tremendous gift of salvation accomplishes the opposite of giving a “license” to sin. How could anyone, knowing the price Jesus Christ paid for us, go on to live a life of sin (Romans 6:15-23)? How could anyone who understands God’s unconditional and guaranteed love for those who believe, take that love and throw it back in God’s face? Such a person is demonstrating not that eternal security has given him or her a license to sin, but rather that he or she has not truly experienced salvation through Jesus Christ. “No one who lives in Him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen Him or known Him” (1 John 3:6).

Recommended Resource: Eternal Security by Charles Stanley.

Take from this whatever you will.

 

[Flying_Bison]

I would like to thank Tim for his discussion. He has obviously looked at the Catholic position with an open mind.

I just wanted to answer his question about the confessional and death.

1st as Catholics, nothing we do on Earth can save us.
It is God’s Grace that saves us. He Judges us by our faith and actions and can grant us heaven our not. We are never owed heaven by our actions or faith. It is God’s gift thanks to the sacrifice on the Cross. So in effect, we can do what he wants us and we are more likely to obtain the grace of heaven. (I apologize if my explaination is too simplistic and/or confusing.)

So, if one were to seriously desire sacramental confession but dies, God knows one’s heart and that he sincerely wished for God’s forgiveness on earth in the way that Jesus taught. His Grace is endless and can Forgive us. This is Quite the opposite from one not caring about confession and dying with sin. Jesus will judge them. Whether he lets them in to heaven or not is not known, but we can sure guess the answer from Jesus’ teachings.

And also, not all sins are mortal as John states. Therefore not all minor sin will condemn us to hell. No need therefore to live next to a confessional. (That is unless you want you LOL)

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

No, satan, the world and self will still tempt us. But, a verse you need to know is,

1 Corinthians 10:13

No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.

---

NASB: No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it. (NASB ©1995)​

GWT: There isn’t any temptation that you have experienced which is unusual for humans. God, who faithfully keeps his promises, will not allow you to be tempted beyond your power to resist. But when you are tempted, he will also give you the ability to endure the temptation as your way of escape. (GOD’S WORD®)​

KJV: There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.​

ASV: There hath no temptation taken you but such as man can bear: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation make also the way of escape, that ye may be able to endure it.​

BBE: You have been put to no test but such as is common to man: and God is true, who will not let any test come on you which you are not able to undergo; but he will make with the test a way out of it, so that you may be able to go through it.​

DBY: No temptation has taken you but such as is according to man’s nature; and God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above what ye are able to bear, but will with the temptation make the issue also, so that ye should be able to bear it.​

WEY: No temptation has you in its power but such as is common to human nature; and God is faithful and will not allow you to be tempted beyond your strength. But, when the temptation comes, He will also provide the way of escape; so that you may be able to bear it.​

WBS: There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above what ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.​

WEB: No temptation has taken you except what is common to man. God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted above what you are able, but will with the temptation also make the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.​

YLT: No temptation hath taken you – except human; and God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above what ye are able, but He will make, with the temptation, also the outlet, for your being able to bear it.

 

[mikeledes]

Hi,
I have no intentions of getting into this thread other then posting the following. I am posting this only because I feel many here have many misconceptions about OSAS and I would like to just simply put out what the real belief is. I dont expect any of you to believe it nor am I trying to persuade you , just trying to clear up some misconceptions. Thank you and God Bless:thumbsup:

It amazes me how many times Catholics have to constantly respond to the same arguments. On the meaning of “having eternal life”, go to the following thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=140139

It does not mean what the OSAS Protestants say it means.

And here are some other verses that contradict OSAS.

Here is an interesting verse:

1 Timothy 3:6
6He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil.

Romans 11:

**20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. **

If there is eternal security, then there is no “fear” and no threat of being “cut off.”

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

No, satan, the world and self will still tempt us. But, a verse you need to know is,

1 Corinthians 10:13

No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.

---

NASB: No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it. (NASB ©1995)​

GWT: There isn’t any temptation that you have experienced which is unusual for humans. God, who faithfully keeps his promises, will not allow you to be tempted beyond your power to resist. But when you are tempted, he will also give you the ability to endure the temptation as your way of escape. (GOD’S WORD®)​

KJV: There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.​

ASV: There hath no temptation taken you but such as man can bear: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation make also the way of escape, that ye may be able to endure it.​

BBE: You have been put to no test but such as is common to man: and God is true, who will not let any test come on you which you are not able to undergo; but he will make with the test a way out of it, so that you may be able to go through it.​

DBY: No temptation has taken you but such as is according to man’s nature; and God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above what ye are able to bear, but will with the temptation make the issue also, so that ye should be able to bear it.​

WEY: No temptation has you in its power but such as is common to human nature; and God is faithful and will not allow you to be tempted beyond your strength. But, when the temptation comes, He will also provide the way of escape; so that you may be able to bear it.​

WBS: There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above what ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.​

WEB: No temptation has taken you except what is common to man. God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted above what you are able, but will with the temptation also make the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.​

YLT: No temptation hath taken you – except human; and God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above what ye are able, but He will make, with the temptation, also the outlet, for your being able to bear it.

And yet Chrsitians still fall into sin.

God bless,
Michael

 

[ALLFORHIM]

It amazes me how many times Catholics have to constantly respond to the same arguments. On the meaning of “having eternal life”, go to the following thread:

 

[mikeledes]

mikeledes;2173892:

I know what you mean Mike because it is the same for us.

Hey at leaast we are consistent.

Hey, I respect consistency!

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Cari]

I would like to stick in a little thanks to Tim and Allforhim for being so patient and charitable on this thread. While I reject the “Eternal Security” theory, I do have great respect for the time and effort these posters have demonstrated in presenting their cases. They have been open to our questions, responded with respect to our beliefs, and have maintained a laudable level of good manners.

It’s kind of like being the only minority in a classroom. You suddenly are forced into the role of being “spokesperson” for your race/culture/nationality/etc.

Thanks again!
C

 

[ALLFORHIM]

I would like to stick in a little thanks to Tim and Allforhim for being so patient and charitable on this thread. While I reject the “Eternal Security” theory, I do have great respect for the time and effort these posters have demonstrated in presenting their cases. They have been open to our questions, responded with respect to our beliefs, and have maintained a laudable level of good manners.

It’s kind of like being the only minority in a classroom. You suddenly are forced into the role of being “spokesperson” for your race/culture/nationality/etc.

Thanks again!
C

Your welcome:thumbsup: I never thought of the minority thing but you are right. We are definitely the minority here but that is ok.

Im the minority in my family as well so Im use to it(as far as being a believer).

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

1 John 1:8-10 (New International Version)

8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

 

[mikeledes]

1 John 1:8-10 (New International Version)

8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

If we as Christians sin, we must seek forgiveness in order to be cleansed.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[RosalieM]

I just started reading C.S. Lewis’ “The Screwtape Letters” and would already recommend it highly.

(paraphrased from the back cover):

“…a portrayal of human life and foibles from the vantage point of Screwtape, a highly placed assistant to “Our Father Below”.
…C.S. Lewis gives us the correspondence of the worldly-wise old devil to his nephew Wormwood, a novice demon in charge of securing the damnation of an ordinary young man…the most engaging account of temptation – and the triumph over it – ever written.”

 

[teachccd]

I agree. But confession to whom? Eternal Security holders say that there is one mediator between us and the Father and that is Jesus.
Tim

Where is “Eternal Security” in the Bible?? Sorry, but we Catholics get hit with that all the time.