OSAS minister is found to never have been saved?

[Sean_Boyle]

Let say that your minister realizes that he was never really saved and “being saved” never took in his life and he was going through the motions really just preaching because of the money in a large ministery. Now this minister was responsible for bringing many people to God, to be “saved” and faithfully preaching OSAS and the five solas. But one day he realized he wasn’t saved and left the ministery. Are you still saved? Can unbelief, teach belief in this case?

According to OSAS you can not come to “being saved” by a lack of faith, trickery or deceit, right? Would your salvation be assured? Preaching the word without living it would be a work of the flesh, right? Boosting? All preaching that led you to be saved by this man would be described as what then? It can’t be God working through sin, right?

This question is unique to OSAS ministers. They are either the elect or not, right? It’s all or none for them. What if it’s none?

 

[rbarcia]

This is a bait question.

No minister can save a person, only Jesus Christ can. Anyone relying on a minster’s word that they were saved should examine themselves. The minister is not the proxy for a person to Christ.

What happens if a priest in the RCC commits a mortal sin right before giving out communion? Is the communion valid?

 

[Sixtus]

Are you still saved? Can unbelief, teach belief in this case

This is a paradox. Can a light be illuminated by darkness?

What happens if a priest in the RCC commits a mortal sin right before giving out communion? Is the communion valid?

The validity of the Consecration is with Christ and His holy ministry of the ordained priesthood. Human weakness does not invalidate or devalue the power and authority of Almighty God.

 

[cestusdei]

I have had this put to me many times. When I tell a fundamentalist I was once one of them and am now a Catholic priest they tell me I was never really saved. But if that is the case then I and no one can have the “assurance of salvation.” I did everything a good fundamentalist should do and prayed the sinners prayer. I was told I was saved and could never lose my salvation. Only those naughty katholiks believed you could lose your salvation. We all knew better because our Bible told us so or at least our preachers said that’s what it said. But now that I am Catholic I am told I was not and am not saved. You can’t have it both ways fundy folks. This is an Achilles heal of fundamentalist belief.

Btw, I may be offline for a few weeks due to lot’s of work.

 

[Sixtus]

cestusdei

Btw, I may be offline for a few weeks due to lot’s of work.

Bless you Fr. We look forward to your return

 

[estesbob]

Let say that your minister realizes that he was never really saved and “being saved” never took in his life and he was going through the motions really just preaching because of the money in a large ministery. Now this minister was responsible for bringing many people to God, to be “saved” and faithfully preaching OSAS and the five solas. But one day he realized he wasn’t saved and left the ministery. Are you still saved? Can unbelief, teach belief in this case?

According to OSAS you can not come to “being saved” by a lack of faith, trickery or deceit, right? Would your salvation be assured? Preaching the word without living it would be a work of the flesh, right? Boosting? All preaching that led you to be saved by this man would be described as what then? It can’t be God working through sin, right?

This question is unique to OSAS ministers. They are either the elect or not, right? It’s all or none for them. What if it’s none?

I dont see any difference if he does consider himself saved. he’s teaching a falsehood regardless.

 

[rbarcia]

The validity of the Consecration is with Christ and His holy ministry of the ordained priesthood. Human weakness does not invalidate or devalue the power and authority of Almighty God.

OSAS aside, the original question is nonsense. It is one thing to debate the actual doctrine.

Asking about the condition of the preacher is the same as asking about the condition of a priest who offers the Eucharist.

 

[mark_a]

Let say that your minister realizes that he was never really saved and “being saved” never took in his life and he was going through the motions really just preaching because of the money in a large ministery. Now this minister was responsible for bringing many people to God, to be “saved” and faithfully preaching OSAS and the five solas. But one day he realized he wasn’t saved and left the ministery. Are you still saved?

Wasn’t there once a heresy similar to this?

 

[puzzleannie]

Let say that your minister realizes that he was never really saved and “being saved” never took in his life and he was going through the motions really just preaching because of the money in a large ministery. Now this minister was responsible for bringing many people to God, to be “saved” and faithfully preaching OSAS and the five solas. But one day he realized he wasn’t saved and left the ministery. Are you still saved? Can unbelief, teach belief in this case?

?

the question as posted contains its own answer, in the contradiction which is deliberately inserted in the middle sentence above. Whether or not the minister “led people to God” is debatable but he did not save any one, or cause them to be saved, nor was he responsible for their salvation. So obviously, anything he says or does in his personal life has no affect on anyone’s salvation, his own adherents or anyone else.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

OSAS aside, the original question is nonsense. It is one thing to debate the actual doctrine.

Asking about the condition of the preacher is the same as asking about the condition of a priest who offers the Eucharist.

No the condition of a preacher is not the same as a priest. One who believes in OSAS must have assurance that the minister is saved. If a priest offends God and he is repentant, he can seek forgiveness from God. This differs from a minister because the minister must be assured salvation to preach OSAS. A priest does not need to be assured salvation. In fact he can not be assured of his salvation.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

This is a bait question.

No minister can save a person, only Jesus Christ can. Anyone relying on a minster’s word that they were saved should examine themselves. The minister is not the proxy for a person to Christ.
quote]

Bait question, not sure of that, but as someone else said the answer is contained within the question, but since we are all human I can’t imagine that this instance has never happened.

The question is how is OSAS applied in this instance? What are the implication for OSAS in this instance?

Ministers lead people to be saved, to know Christ as I understand it. A person seeking Truth can not read the bible and obtain the idea of OSAS. They must be guided to that understand by someone.

 

[carol_marie]

No the condition of a preacher is not the same as a priest. One who believes in OSAS must have assurance that the minister is saved. If a priest offends God and he is repentant, he can seek forgiveness from God. This differs from a minister because the minister must be assured salvation to preach OSAS. A priest does not need to be assured salvation. In fact he can not be assured of his salvation.

Why would that be necessary?

I don’t think OSAS people believe that is true?

 

[rr1213]

No the condition of a preacher is not the same as a priest. One who believes in OSAS must have assurance that the minister is saved.

What is your source for this assertion? I have never heard it claimed to be so by the OSAS crowd. As others have noted, the situation is exactly the same as a priest who is in mortal sin yet consecrating the host. The priest’s condition does not make the consecrated host less than the body and blood of Christ.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

What is your source for this assertion? I have never heard it claimed to be so by the OSAS crowd. As others have noted, the situation is exactly the same as a priest who is in mortal sin yet consecrating the host. The priest’s condition does not make the consecrated host less than the body and blood of Christ.

I may have been mistaken in this assertion.

 

[joshua_b]

Wasn’t there once a heresy similar to this?

I believe the Waldensians. (If not them it was some other group, maybe someone smarter than me will help me out…) They believed the efficacy of the Sacraments were contingent on the moral state of the Priest who administered the Sacrament. In short, in order for your baptism to be valid, the Priest had to be holy and pious and without an attachment to sin.

 

[rayne100]

To be honest, the idea of “being saved” is foreign to me. I tend to think of it as a life long process not just a one time event.
If the minister believes in God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit and he faithfully acts according to the standards of Christ’s teachings, then he has nothing to be afraid of.
He is Saved so to speak by his belief and his actions.

If people were inspired by his teaching and came to know Christ more fully and follow is teachings then they are “saved” so to speak as well.

But like I said, I am catholic and the idea of a one time event saving you for all eternity is foreign to me.
It is not a one time thing. you have to actively participate in this state.
Rayne100

 

[MariaG]

Repsectfully Sean, I think you may have been mistaken.

What DOES happen though is that people who were led to their faith in Christ through these men who sin greatly and publically, thereby by their own doctrine show that they were never saved to begin with, is their faith is greatly shaken.

They may begin to doubt their own salvation since the man who led them to Christ, was never saved to begin with, according to their beliefs. It will and has definitely caused many to fall away ( in Catholic terms) or many to believe they were never saved to begin with for many of the reasons you state, but I don’t think it will always happen or that a person will believe that just because their pastor was not saved, they automatically were never saved either because of it.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[allischalmers]

the Bible teaches that there are people that are truely saved and are there those people that think that they are saved but are not… That includes protestant and catholic alike
This is why I do not believe in the sinners prayer or the walk the aisle thing… God saves a person using His word and the Holy Spirit. Even if a unsaved person is preaching the Word God can use that to open a person heart to salvation and save them.
Also when God does save someone He lets them know it. There is no doubt.

 

[carol_marie]

the Bible teaches that there are people that are truely saved and are there those people that think that they are saved but are not… That includes protestant and catholic alike
This is why I do not believe in the sinners prayer or the walk the aisle thing… God saves a person using His word and the Holy Spirit. Even if a unsaved person is preaching the Word God can use that to open a person heart to salvation and save them.
Also when God does save someone He lets them know it. There is no doubt.

Don’t those two statements contradict themselves?

 

[cestusdei]

I believe one of Bunyon’s characters had a dream he was saved, but realized it wasn’t so and said that these were God’s sharpest arrows. What do you do with someone who thinks they are saved and later doesn’t think so. Or someone who thinks they are, but are in fact not saved. This becomes simple subjectivism. I feel therefore I am. There was no mistaking that I felt saved back then, but now that I am Catholic they suddenly say I am not. Both mormonism and calvinism seem to depend on subjective feelings more then anything else.