OSAS- Once Saved Always Saved

[drblank1]

That is indeed a strong fruit, because without forgiveness, we ourselves can’t be forgiven…“Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.” It is something I have trouble with.

Now, when we come to the pearly gates, will we have to show our fruits to prove our faith was saving faith?

No, because Jesus already know our hearts. Peter will not be standing at the gates, taking out his ledger to see if we can pass. Our fates were sealed at conversion.

But we will answer for our actions and have to face Jesus. Remember, the White Throne Judgement is not judgement to condemn but to reward His true followers.

 

[James248]

No, because Jesus already know our hearts. Peter will not be standing at the gates, taking out his ledger to see if we can pass. Our fates were sealed at conversion.

But we will answer for our actions and have to face Jesus. Remember, the White Throne Judgement is not judgement to condemn but to reward His true followers.

That’s not what Jesus said in the Parable of the Talents. Every servant who showed up was admitted into the Master’s joy if they doubled their talents.

 

[drblank1]

So a person CAN break faith with God?

Can someone renounce an authentic/born-again/regenerated faith with God? Yes. God does not produce robots. Will someone as a defined in this response do that? No.

Will a superficial faith fall away? 100% of the time. Because it was not real.

 

[drblank1]

That’s not what Jesus said in the Parable of the Talents. Every servant who showed up was admitted into the Master’s joy if they doubled their talents.

And the one who feared, did not believe, and buried his talent was rejected. No faith. And this parable has NOTHING to do with the White Throne Judgement.

 

[James248]

Can someone renounce an authentic/born-again/regenerated faith with God? Yes. God does not produce robots. Will someone as a defined in this response do that? No.

Will a superficial faith fall away? 100% of the time. Because it was not real.

Just answer Yes or No and do honor to God with your answer by not dodging my question.

 

[drblank1]

Just answer Yes or No and do honor to God with your answer by not dodging my question.

A more specifically-defined answer than what you were expecting is not honoring God? Such a dubious comment my brother.

 

[Debbie_Kono]

Authentic faith perseveres. Superficial faith does not. Superficial faith does not save.

If I don’t have absolute certainty that I’m going to heaven…is my faith, in your opinion, superficial?

And please, I would really, really like that list of essentials that all Protestants agree on.

 

[drblank1]

So you believe that those who believe in synergic salvation have been withheld from certain parts of the Holy Spirit’s revelation?

Take John Newton for instance. The Holy Spirit did not move him to renounce slavery until 10 years after his conversion.

 

[drblank1]

If I don’t have absolute certainty that I’m going to heaven…is my faith, in your opinion, superficial?

And please, I would really, really like that list of essentials that all Protestants agree on.

I will not judge your faith. All I know for certainty is Jesus paid my full price and redeemed me. I have placed my full faith and trust in His finished work. I’m have peace because the Bible reinforces my faith. I joy in the day I will see Jesus face to face.

It seems that you are trying to prove that Protestants are at odds with each other. While some have gone astray (accepting homosexuality or abortion), so have some Catholics like the Reformed Catholic Church.

Protestants agree on the essentials which I previously provided to you. It doesn’t seem you are asking for you own edification but to vilify. If I’m wrong, I apologize in advance.

If you believe a central authority is needed to determine doctrine. Then you can and I don’t judge you for that. Its a non-essential issue. But we (you and I and every authentic Christian) has the Holy Spirit living inside us to guide us to truth and expose false teachings. This is very Biblical.

 

[James248]

And the one who feared, did not believe, and buried his talent was rejected. No faith. And this parable has NOTHING to do with the White Throne Judgement.

Whether the person believed his Master is ultimately irrelevant to the Parable. And the Master’s command to cast the servant out into the darkness were there would be weeping and gnashing of teeth contradicts your second position.

 

[James248]

Take John Newton for instance. The Holy Spirit did not move him to renounce slavery until 10 years after his conversion.

Yet from Scripture it’s pretty apparent that God hates slavery. Just that it’s apparent that one’s perseverance will secure his life. So it’s less about the Holy Spirit not moving him and more about him rejecting the Holy Spirit’s nudgings.

 

[drblank1]

[BIBLEDRB][/BIBLEDRB]

Answer the question: Do you believe final perseverance is necessary for salvation?

Sorry James. I missed this. Now I understand your comment.

Perseverance is not necessary for salvation. But its a resulting quality of the authentic born-again Christian. And “perseverance” lies in God and His Character, not within ourselves. Scripture is clear the matter

“He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ” (Philippians 1:6)

“all that the Father gives me will come to me” and “I shall lose none of them that He has given me” (John 6:37, 39)

Scripture is clear indeed.

I believe God will preserve me to the end. Scripture exhorts me to live my life according to the gratitude I have for what Jesus did personally for me. I will within myself persevere in that way (what I do with my talents).

But my faith, salvation, and assurance relies in Jesus and is reinforced by Scripture.

God bless you my friend.

 

[drblank1]

Yet from Scripture it’s pretty apparent that God hates slavery. Just that it’s apparent that one’s perseverance will secure his life. So it’s less about the Holy Spirit not moving him and more about him rejecting the Holy Spirit’s nudgings.

Ecclesiastes 3:11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the human heart; yet no one can fathom what God has done from beginning to end.

John 13:7 Jesus answered him, “What I am doing you do not understand now, but afterward you will understand.

Romans 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.

There are many other verses that let us know we must wait on God’s timing and revelation. Romans 8:28 - we know that what John Newton (we and God hate slavery) did for those 10 years were working towards God’s good plan.

No, if you read his story, the Holy Spirit did not deal with this issue right away.

 

[James248]

Sorry James. I missed this. Now I understand your comment.

Perseverance is not necessary for salvation. But its a resulting quality of the authentic born-again Christian. And “perseverance” lies in God and His Character, not within ourselves. Scripture is clear the matter

“He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ” (Philippians 1:6)

“all that the Father gives me will come to me” and “I shall lose none of them that He has given me” (John 6:37, 39)

Scripture is clear indeed.

I believe God will preserve me to the end. Scripture exhorts me to live my life according to the gratitude I have for what Jesus did personally for me. I will within myself persevere in that way (what I do with my talents).

But my faith, salvation, and assurance relies in Jesus and is reinforced by Scripture.

God bless you my friend.

Then how come Jesus says to the Church (diocese) of Smyrna in Revelation 2:10, “Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown?” How come He tells the Apostles in Luke 21:19, " By your perseverance you will secure your lives?"

 

[James248]

Ecclesiastes 3:11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the human heart; yet no one can fathom what God has done from beginning to end.

John 13:7 Jesus answered him, “What I am doing you do not understand now, but afterward you will understand.

Romans 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.

There are many other verses that let us know we must wait on God’s timing and revelation. Romans 8:28 - we know that what John Newton (we and God hate slavery) did for those 10 years were working towards God’s good plan.

No, if you read his story, the Holy Spirit did not deal with this issue right away.

It seems you’re ignoring a vital statement of mine: “It was pretty clear from Scripture that God hates slavery.” So God 's position on slavery was clear before then. So it has less to do with God holding off His truth than Newton failing to understand God’s truth.

 

[drblank1]

Whether the person believed his Master is ultimately irrelevant to the Parable. And the Master’s command to cast the servant out into the darkness were there would be weeping and gnashing of teeth contradicts your second position.

You are very incorrect my friend. It is the crux (a warning) of the parable!!!

While we can apply this to our faith walk, you miss the context and real purpose of Jesus’ message. It was given specifically for the people of Israel who live in the end times because they have the responsibility to evangelize the world once the church is taken away.

Those that come to faith in Jesus will be rewarded in His kingdom. The basis of the reward will be their stewardship His resources He entrusted to them. Those who fear and do not believe will be rejected and judged.

 

[drblank1]

It seems you’re ignoring a vital statement of mine: “It was pretty clear from Scripture that God hates slavery.” So God 's position on slavery was clear before then. So it has less to do with God holding off His truth than Newton failing to understand God’s truth.

The Bible does not specifically speak out against slavery. It is silent on the matter. Paul even instructs slaves to honor their master but doesn’t condemn slavery.

From our Christian upbringings it is easy for us to glean from the Bible it is wrong, right? You cannot judge for yourself whether Newton was ignoring the Holy Spirit. We can only take him at his word.

 

[drblank1]

Then how come Jesus says to the Church (diocese) of Smyrna in Revelation 2:10, “Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown?” How come He tells the Apostles in Luke 21:19, " By your perseverance you will secure your lives?"

Both are messages of encouragement for those who will suffer during the tribulation. Jesus is encouraging. Nowhere does he say if they fold under persecution you will be damned.

Can you explain the Biblical promises I provided you in my previous post?

“He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ” (Philippians 1:6)

“all that the Father gives me will come to me” and “I shall lose none of them that He has given me” (John 6:37, 39)

 

[mackbrislawn]

I apologize for inferring anything. What I meant to ask (not to eloquently before) is do you believe your past, present, and future sins penalty have been paid through Jesus’ perfect sacrifice?

Yes, I believe all my sins have been paid for by Jesus’ sacrifice. However, that is not the issue, because everybody accepts that Jesus paid for all our sins. That is not the point. The point is, will I remain in grace, not break faith and reject Jesus, before I receive the benefits of that sacrifice?

You ask, why would anyone break faith? Yes, indeed. Quite a valid question. Because you have said a person with faith would never fall away. A possible answer, the one I believe you adhere to, is that such a person did not have authentic, saving faith to begin with. Maybe this answer is correct, for all we know. The problem with that answer is that we then have to postulate that there is such a thing as “saving” faith as opposed to “non-saving” faith. This postulate strikes me as somewhat artificial or ad hoc, simply for the purpose of explaining away why some people stay in the faith and some fall away. “Why did that person fall away? Why, he wasn’t saved to begin with!”

So, how can this postulate be disproved? It can’t, this side of heaven. So what good is it? Well, it preserves the doctrine of once saved, always saved. A doctrine that has a back-door escape clause: “That’s why he fell away, he didn’t have saving faith!” “If saved, always saved.” What a big IF!

True, perhaps for some people, such as yourself, the Holy Spirit has granted special affirmation. But not for all. That is why the Catholic viewpoint allows for the possibility of future falling away, even if for now one feels he has saving faith, thinks he is secure. And he* is* secure, because Jesus is trustworthy. But, are we trustworthy? That is the question.

Of course, the Holy Spirit helps us along the way. For the Catholic, that is a purpose of the sacraments, means of securing his faith, until his final salvation at the judgment. But for the OSAS believer, the sacraments seem pointless, since the OSAS believer thinks he is already saved!

I hope this clarifies a little bit what the point of discussion is, so we won’t be talking past one another.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

You totally forgot one other option. The only reliable option. The Holy Spirit. The CC has no greater access to the Spirit than you or I. I rely in the Holy Spirit’s. I trust Him to guide me. Don’t you?

First of all, thanks for responding to everyone here. I’ve been on the other side of this and it’s not easy to do…very time consuming.

Yes, I absolutely trust in Him to guide me. He does it all the time, both individually and through other believers.

I think a fundamental difference between us is our understanding of the Gospel message on who/what the Church actually is.

You say:

The CC has no greater access to the Spirit than you or I.

We all receive the Spirit. Yet you or I don’t author scripture…

We don’t determine what is scripture…

We don’t forgive or retain sins(John 20:21-23)

We don’t settle matters between believers with final decisions with the ability to ex communicate if need be. (Matt 18:17)

And if we are teaching different doctrine, then we cant be the Pillar and Bulwark of the Truth: (Tim 3:15)

So we as believers have promises, but the Church obviously has greater responsibility and promises that wouldn’t apply to us personally.

It was the Church authority that was given the promise of not failing in Matt 16; not individuals.

I’ll give you a real life example in my own life. I used to believe you could lose your salvation. I would hear others speak of assurance but still flatly thought they were wrong. But then through my daily Bible studies, I started getting conflicting feelings on the matter. Scripture seemed to conflict with my beliefs (the Holy Spirit started working on me). So I started praying that God would give me Truth and wisdom in the matter. It took me a couple of years and with the Holy Spirits help, He opened my eyes to the Truth. I was once like most on this forum. How could someone fall into sin and not go to hell.

But then, the Holy Spirit started asking me questions through scripture. If I sealed you until the Day of the Lord, that is a promise. Why would I lie and unseal you? If I selected you before the foundation of the world to be in My Kingdom, what could you ever do to overcome My power/my plan? I tell you over and over again in My Word that I have given you eternal life. Do you think I really lied about that? But it took me another year because of difficult passes like Hebrews 10. So with the Holy Spirit’s guidance, He opened the truth behind those difficult passages and now my faith and trust in Jesus has gone to a whole new level. I now have God’s peace knowing that He will sustain me until I reach Heaven. I have joy knowing that Jesus did more for me than I had thought previously. It is a great feeling to know that God has me in His hands, and no matter how imperfect I am, He loves me and will keep me safe until I see Jesus’ face to face. This is the Gospel and its all Biblical my friend.

You see, you and I have the same access to God as anyone does in Heaven. He wants us to trust in Him. No matter what other believe, as long as you trust in Him, He will reveal the Truth to you. Don’t get me wrong. He still has me ignorance in some matters, and He may or may not give me revelation in those matters, but I’m trusting in His plan for my life.

God bless you

Thank you.

I genuinely tried to believe in OSAS…I really did. But the scriptures testify so heavily against it that I can not.

You brought up a interesting passage in Hebrews 10. Chapter 6 of that same book is also interesting . I remember taking those passages to a protestant minister and discussing OSAS with him and he flat out admitted he has no way to refute the Arminian position thanks to those passages. And this is a very godly man with a master’s degree in divinity. I appreciated his honesty.

I think I can agree with you that if a person is saved(elect) they are always saved. Election is biblical…The problem is our hearts are wicked and can deceive us. (Jeremiah 17:9) So only God knows the elect since we have not died yet.

And I’ve seen over the years how Christians have, I guess, murdered their own conscience and convinced themselves that immorality is ok such as birth control(not OK’ d by anyone prior to 1930, btw) female ordination and homosexuality, etc. And most or all those folks think they are saved and that everything is ok when it obviously isn’t. And they read the same scriptures we do. I think it’s proof positive that a visible, objective standard of authority is necessary and was what Jesus actually established for us. Instead of Jesus and me, it’s actually Jesus and we…the authoritative Church he established with the communion of saints.

Not saying you are deceived or anything like that. I’m glad you have peace I’m sure you are a great Christian and you probably are going to heaven. We just have totally different understandings about what Jesus left for us here. Did he intend on us being together on this gigantic vessel or did he intend for us to be on individual life rafts and/or much smaller ships as we sail through this journey of life in our Christian walk. Big questions, not easy answers.

The Lord be with you.