OSAS the Sequel the final chapter

[PJM]

Maranatha33
New Member #252 page 17 OSAS Apologetics Forum Page 1

I apologize up front for the length of this post made necessary by the thoughtful and lengthily OP. The subject matter is worthy of a detailed and factually supported reply.

Hi all!
I was going to stay away from posting, but felt the necessity to present my case for OSAS. I make no apologies for the number of Scripture quotes used. Men may be able to twist their opinion of what Scripture means, but the truth of Scripture is quite specific. That is why we use context, logic, lexicons, concordances, but most importantly, prayer and the Paraclete.
In Christ Jesus, m33

A Catholic Response

To claim to be able to simply set aside the very Words of God on a pretext that one can and may apply their own interpretation of Sacred Scripture, lacks a logical foundation.

A thesis that lacks “a logical foundation” also lacks TRUTH {Capitalized with an understanding that any single issue can have but one single truth at base.}

An argument that lacks both a logical foundation and TRUTH, set’s aside the reality of a Supreme Power that we Christians calls “God.”

No credible discussion can be launched from such a platform.

The foundational belief of all major Christian denominations is that only the sacrifice of Jesus Christ is sufficient propitiation for the sins of man. OSAS is based on the one historical event at Calvary some 2000 years ago. Since this specific propitiation through the crucifixion and resurrection was only done “once for all” only one action is able to offer salvation. Once this offer has been given to man and accepted by “grace through faith” it has to be eternal because the Bible records no other possible means for salvation. If one can lose their salvation, Jesus would have to be crucified again, and that idea is simply unbiblical. There are no references to the crucifixion being performed more than once.

This topic cannot be discussed without accepting God at His Very Own Words. One can deny truth, alter truth, and ignore truth; but none of these choices actually change THE TRUTH.

Lk. 1: 67 “And his father {of John the Baptized} Zechariah was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying, "Blessed be the Lord God of Israel, for he has visited and redeemed his people, 69 and has raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David,” Notice this speaks specifically of Redemption as an accomplished act, and alluded to Christ as the means, and the source of Salvation, but neither specifies or even implies that “salvation too is an accomplished act.”

Gal. 4: 4 But when the time had fully come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. 6 And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” So through God you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son then an heir”. Here again we see talk of the effects of Redemption. Indeed, we are Redeemed! BUT redemption means ONLY that access to heaven is once again POSSIBLE and is restored for all time. Prior to the death and Resurrection of Christ, no one could access heaven because of the Original Sin of Adam and Eve.

To accept the premise that OSAS is “the truth” one must ignore both of these passages, and of even greater significance, deny the very Divine, all good and consistently good, FAIR and JUST Nature of God.

One gets no argument from the statement that “God is all and everything good.” So we ask are “fairness and Justice” of themselves “good?” Indeed they are. Thus they must be part of God’s Divine Nature.

While denial of God is not the goal, indeed not the desire of this position, OSAS, nevertheless necessary causes this result through its Obstinate denial of God’s Divine Word, and what we are able to know about the Divine Nature of God.

Another aspect, another component of God’s hidden Nature is that He God is all knowing. Thus, He is incapable of error.

Those who hold to this belief fail to recognize that humanity is made in the “image and likeness of God Himself.” {Gen. 1:26}. This likeness does not extend to God’s Perfection, but does include elements that make God Perfect, namely intellect, reason, mind and freewill.
If OSAS is “the truth,” why then bother making humanity “in the image and likeness of God?” Why GIFT humanity with potential that need not be realized, perhaps even, could not be realized? God could have created us with only intellect, and mind, and have omitted “reason and freewill.” God could have, but did not. Why is that?

Hebrews 5:10
”And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all”

It is precisely this same understanding from which the Catholic Mass gets its premise, its authority, and its validity.

Christ can only die once, and Christ has already died for us, Amen! Isn’t it nice that we can agree on something?

** The Catholic Sacrifice of the Holy Mass makes Christ present again and again until the end of time, in a Memorial of Christ Sacrifice that is BLOODLESS, because it is the GLORIFIED BODY OF CHRIST, HIS RISEN BODY, BLOOD, SOUL AND DIVINITY, that becomes present, and is offered time and again, and consumed in Catholic Holy Communion. This of course, is God Himself, the source of GRACE par- excellence. ******

 

[PJM]

OSAS Apologetics Forum Page 2

Hebrews 9:12, 15
12He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption.15For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—

In TRUTH Christ did die for “our sins,” this statement is THE CAUSE, NOT THE EFFECT of Christ Sacrifice! It explains the reason Christ came to earth, suffered, died, was buried and rose again from the dead. The effect of this unfathomable Act of Divine Love was and is “Redemption!” Christ accomplished our Redemption, Amen!

However “Redemption” and “Salvation” are not the same thing, they are not synonymous terms! Redemption is an accomplished act, Praise the Lord! While Salvation, is a process that requires grace. But grace is a “free gift from God,” and like many of God’s gifts, there are strings attached.

Not only are their strings attached to grace, but also grace can be denied, which is the “dark-side” of man’s freewill.

We are Created “To know, love and serve God” {Duet.5: 8-10}, Agreed?

So how can we love God, which is always “a free will decision,” a free choice.” ** If “love of God is forced on us?” **

This gets to the very heart of the matter, the precise reason that God Created us with the Gifts and abilities that we all have. The ability to reason and to freely chose “good or evil” is the exact reason God gives us these gifts. God desires, in fact God DEMANDS that we prove our love for Him, and that is why, THAT IS WHY, we are Created with the ability to love God or to deny God! This may well be a greater sacrifice on God’s behalf than the Sacrifice of His Beloved Son? It affirms and confirms the need for humanity to work out their salvation, with and through God’s Benevolent Grace. But NOT because of it.

Phil. 2: “Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.”

Mt. 25: 31"When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. Then the King will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’ And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’ Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’ Then he will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’ And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

That dear friend defines WORKS. Please also read James Chapter 2 it’s a short chapter.

Note that the redemption (from sin) and inheritance (of heaven) are both eternal, thus only happen once.

**

Hebrews 10:10, 12, 13 “And by that will we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 12But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.”

(note. Verse 11 referred to the priests of the O.T., thus I felt it doesn’t apply. The quoted verses are eternal in nature, thus do apply.)

Then, dear friend explain the following, because verse 14 Christ is speaking of Redemption, not Salvation.

Mt.16: 19 “ I {Jesus} will give you {Peter and the RCC} the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

At The First Pentecost: Jn.20: 21 “Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” NOTE: This is a mandate not a suggestion!

1 Jn. 5: 16 “If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin, which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal. “ The word “mortal” here means “unto death!” So by our own choices, we can and DO sin. And some sins are serious enough to if unrepented and unconfessed to separate and estrange us fro a personal relationship with God.**

 

[PJM]

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Jude 13 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints.

Note two words in this passage:

“Contend” meaning to seek or to fight for.

“Entrusted” meaning given to “care for take care of.”

The “salvation “we share” is not described as a certainty, rather it is described as something to be contended for and to be cherished if attained.

The Roman Catholic doctrine of [Trans] substantiation and immolation require Jesus to be brought back to earth in body and spirit, by the priest, and sacrificed repeatedly. To make sure that I have obtained this doctrine accurately, I have quoted 3 reputable sources.

So much for “reputable resources,” but you get an A+ for effort.

As I explained above the Sacrifice of the Sacrifice of the Mass makes Present the NOW GLORIFIED and Risen Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus, and is a “ Bloodless Memorial,” that Really makes Christ Present to Catholics. {See Jn. Ch.6, Mt. 26, Lk. 22, Mk. 14 and 1 Cor. 11 for Biblical evidence.}

The Roman Catholic Catechism, a more current one, quotes Vatican II: “As often as the sacrifice of the cross by which Christ has been sacrificed is celebrated on the altar, the work of our redemption is carried out.” It is a sacrifice, it is an actual sacrifice though unbloody, of the real Christ made on a real altar by a real priest, but He is still immolated. Immolation is the sacrificial killing of a victim. They say in the Mass Christ is actually immolated. He is sacrificially killed. Christ becomes “the Most Holy Victim, actually present in flesh and spirit and divinity in the bread and the wine.

Thank you, you just made my point!

Catechism of the RCC:

“1366 The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross, because it is its memorial and because it applies its fruit:
[Christ], our Lord and God, was once and for all to offer himself to God the Father by his death on the altar of the cross, to accomplish there an everlasting redemption. But because his priesthood was not to end with his death, at the Last Supper “on the night when he was betrayed,” [he wanted] to leave to his beloved spouse the Church a visible sacrifice (as the nature of man demands) by which the bloody sacrifice which he was to accomplish once for all on the cross would be re-presented, its memory perpetuated until the end of the world, and its salutary power be applied to the forgiveness of the sins we daily commit.
“1367 The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: “The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different.” “And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner. . . this sacrifice is truly propitiatory.”

“1374 The mode of Christ’s presence under the Eucharistic species is unique. It raises the Eucharist above all the sacraments as “the perfection of the spiritual life and the end to which all the sacraments tend.” In the most blessed sacrament of the Eucharist “the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, the whole Christ is truly, really, and substantially contained.” “This presence is called ‘real’ - by which is not intended to exclude the other types of presence as if they could not be ‘real’ too, but because it is presence in the fullest sense: that is to say, it is a substantial presence by which Christ, God and man, makes himself wholly and entirely present.”

“1369 The whole Church is united with the offering and intercession of Christ. Since he has the ministry of Peter in the Church, the Pope is associated with every celebration of the Eucharist, wherein he is named as the sign and servant of the unity of the universal Church. The bishop of the place is always responsible for the Eucharist, even when a priest presides; the bishop’s name is mentioned to signify his presidency over the particular Church, in the midst of his presbyterium and with the assistance of deacons. The community intercedes also for all ministers who, for it and with it, offer the Eucharistic sacrifice:
Let only that Eucharist be regarded as legitimate, which is celebrated under [the presidency of] the bishop or him to whom he has entrusted it.
Through the ministry of priests the spiritual sacrifice of the faithful is completed in union with the sacrifice of Christ the only Mediator, which in the Eucharist is offered through the priests’ hands in the name of the whole Church in an unbloody and sacramental manner until the Lord himself comes.”

From J.C. Ryle.
“A sacrifice that needs to be repeated is not a perfect or complete thing. You spoil the priestly office of Christ. If there are priests that can offer an acceptable sacrifice to God besides Him, the great High Priest is robbed of His glory.”

While I applaud your effort to find “THE TRUTH,” you fail to comprehend the Nature of the Catholic Priesthood.

 

[PJM]

FINAL PAGE OSAL the SEQUEL

NOTE:

The Miracle of “Transubstaniation” which is the proper term for the what happens to the “bread and wine” at Catholic Mass, is actually, not One BUT Two consecutive Miracles that take place “back to back”

Catholic “Eucharist,” also termed “Holy Communion” is not a mere sign, or symbol. No it Really is the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ that Catholics consume in Obedient and Reverent Thanksgiving. {“Eucharist means, “thanksgiving.”}

We define “Eucharist” as a “gift from God {The Father}, of God {The Son} and to God {The Blessed Trinity.}

So where does the priest {or Bishop} come into the event?

The first {and absolutely necessary} Miracle is that at the very instant of the Consecration {the “Transubstaniation”} the priest who must be “male gender and Catholic” because of the very Words of Christ {references quoted above}: “This is MY Body, This is MY Blood, and Do this in Memory of ME,” is for an instant “made into “another Christ” which is how it is God, working through HIS priest who makes the second Miracle, the “Transubstaniation” occur. Two Miracles, not just one!

The OSAS act of salvation is the Baptism John refers to in his Gospel. Immersion is the act of dying to one’s self, being brought back up is becoming alive through Christ. And the seal of this baptism is receiving the Holy Spirit. John refers to Jesus when he says “He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.” This is the once saved action that causes (eternal) always saved. There is no other way to one’s salvation according to the Bible.

While this is true in {almost every case} and in temporary sense, meaning that The RCC teaches in full accordance with the Bible that Baptism is necessary for Salvation, and that the Sacrament of Baptism does remit All sins; Venial and Mortal, and all the lingering effects of those sins ONE TIME.

So if one were to die without sinning, one would immediately and directly access heaven. BUT WHAT ARE THE REAL WORLD chances of that happening?

In RW we have to account for our after Baptism sinful and sin-filled lives! This conforms to simple logic and takes into consideration the ever present “Fair and Just Nature” of our God.

I can find no Scriptural evidence that the Son of God will ever be submissive to man, only that all will be submissive to Him.

Wow, we agree!

So the question is: “will we listen to “all of God’s Words” and teachings, or just what suits us?

The theory of OSAS is not only not supported in God’s Word it actually contradicts The Biblical Inspired word of God.

2 Tim. 3: 16 “All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.” Amen!

Love and prayers,

Pat

 

[distracted]

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If you are saying that the poster put forth the true Catholic posiiton on Transubstantiation, you are WRONG. Christ is NOT killed over again at the Mass… you are right when you say HERE that:

“1366 The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross,"