OSAS

[JustaServant]

Let’s get to the meat of the matter of OSAS:

Where do you find, in the Bible or in 1700 years of Church history, salvation as a past ‘crisis event’ that must ‘happen’ and not a process?

Because without an understanding of this, the debate is on a merry-go-round.

 

[SteveGC]

Mark 1:14 As he passed by, he saw Levi, son of Alphaeus, sitting at the customs post. He said to him, “Follow me.” And he got up and followed him. 15 While he was at table in his house, many tax collectors and sinners sat with Jesus and his disciples; for there were many who followed him. 16 Some scribes who were Pharisees saw that he was eating with sinners and tax collectors and said to his disciples, “Why does he eat with tax collectors and sinners?” 17 Jesus heard this and said to them (that), "Those who are well do not need a physician, but the sick do. I did not come to call the righteous but sinners."
[17] Do not need a physician: this maxim of Jesus with its implied irony was uttered to silence his adversaries who objected that he ate with tax collectors and sinners (Mark 2:16). Because the scribes and Pharisees were self-righteous, they were not capable of responding to Jesus’ call to repentance and faith in the gospel. (Catholic commentary)

And so? Catholic commentary which explains how a self-righteous person does not respond to Jesus? And your point is? surely you’re not suggesting this supports OSAS, are you?

No other road. The call goes forth, and is at once followed by the response of obedience. The response of the disciples is an act of obedience, not a confession of faith in Jesus. …This encounter is a testiomony to the absolute, direct and unaccountable authority of Jesus. There is no need of any preliminaries, and no other consequence but obedience to the call. Because Jesus is the Christ, he has the authority to call and to demand obedience to his word. Jesus summons men to follow him…According to our text, there is no road to faith or discipleship, no other road - only obedience to the call of Jesus. (dietriech bonhoeffer)

So now your “Catholic” commentary references Bonhoeffer? Exactly what so-called “Catholic” source are you using here, Jerry? Regardless, the use of Bonhoeffer certainly explains the Calvinistic slant given to Mark 1, and seems to support the idea that God takes complete control of a person’s will, to the point of forcing obedience. Is this what you believe? Nevermind that Bonhoeffer was a product of schismatic theological schooling…but let’s take a closer look at what’s being suggested here…automated obedience without prior faith (no preliminaries)?

You don’t even believe that,* yourself*…much less Catholics. This is proven in previous posts of yours where you proclaim faith as necessary, and also shown in your Luke 9 analysis in this post. You speak of “daily sacrifice” and “commitment”. Surely these are not automated responses, otherwise words such as sacrifice and commitment are not suitable to define it. So, is our free will involved in our choosing God, or isn’t it? Because the commentary you offer here says it’s not.

These verses are not part of receiving salvation, rather the result of one’s salvation. Jesus calls and we respond."

Really? Then why do you use words like “must” when describing what a true disciple does, such as “it takes daily sacrifice and commitment?” Furthermore, why use language suggesting ongoing tasks, which you clearly do here?

If it’s a one time profession, and we’re then saved, why are you admonishing disciples to make daily sacrifice? Won’t they automatically do this, by virtue of their being disciples in the first place? Why not just say, “as a true disciple, you WILL make daily sacrifices and commitments”. In all of this commentary, you reference ongoing, daily acts of faith, that clearly are work of the disciple, not Christ. You need to define for us better what it is you actually believe, and in what exact order things occur. Because this post suggests you believe in automated faith, when it’s clear you don’t believe that. Then it suggests that disciples do things as a result of their salvation, yet you support it with examples of daily righteous actions they must do to become a disciple in the first place. You’re all over the map, Jerry. Help us, please.

Define it in simple terms for us.

God Bless

 

[JustaServant]

For Jerry:
Let’s get to the meat of the matter of OSAS:

Where do you find, in the Bible or in 1700 years of Church history, salvation as a past ‘crisis event’ that must ‘happen’ and not a process?

Because without an understanding of this, the debate is on a merry-go-round.

 

[Pax]

Jerry in Christ,

Catholics do not believe in works salvation. You have very mistaken notions of Catholic theology.

Please go back and give answers to my posts and then I will give you some other things to tackle.

Thanks in advance and God bless.

 

[JustaServant]

Jerry in Christ,

Catholics do not believe in works salvation. You have very mistaken notions of Catholic theology.

Please go back and give answers to my posts and then I will give you some other things to tackle.

Thanks in advance and God bless.

We also might want to ask him to post only a couple paragraphs. Most people have no intention of reading a book. And go easy on the Scripture quotes. Take it from a former preacher, it turns people off.

 

[Jerry_Marino]

well if scripture turns you off, i have nothing to say. as for the works: the communion of the eucharist is a necessity for salvation, if one does not participate in communion they are in danger of losing their salvation.

baptism is necessary for salvation.

marriage is the way to salvation.

that is why the church annuls it marriages when one gets divorced.

i could go on and on though you won’t admit it but that is what the church teaches of the sacraments. these are works.

 

[CentralFLJames]

well if scripture turns you off, i have nothing to say. as for the works: the communion of the eucharist is a necessity for salvation, if one does not participate in communion they are in danger of losing their salvation.

baptism is necessary for salvation.

marriage is the way to salvation.

that is why the church annuls it marriages when one gets divorced.

i could go on and on though you won’t admit it but that is what the church teaches of the sacraments. these are works.

Correction: The church does not annul marriages when once gets divorced. Divorce is a civil and secular matter that is not recognized by the Church. Annulment is only possible for those fewer cases where there was not a valid marriage.

Question:
Is professing “I believe” not a work?
Is preaching the bible not a work?
Is conducting altar calls not a work?
Is reciting the sinners prayer not a work?
Is tithing not a work?
Is reading scripture not a work?
Is the “ACTS of the Apostles” not a work?
Is debate and arguing one’s faith and apologetics not a point?

What is YOUR POINT and why are you debating if you are already saved???

James

 

[JustaServant]

well if scripture turns you off, i have nothing to say.

Thats not what I said. I said:

And **go easy on the Scripture quotes. Take it from a former preacher, it (not going easy on it)**turns people off.

We want to hear YOUR words. Anyone can use Scripture to make it appear to say what they want it to say.

 

[JustaServant]

And third times the Charm:
Where do you find, in the Bible or in 1700 years of Church history, salvation as a past ‘crisis event’ that must ‘happen’ and not a process?

Because without an understanding of this, the debate is on a merry-go-round.

 

[Randy_Carson]

marriage is the way to salvation.

that is why the church annuls it marriages when one gets divorced.

i could go on and on though you won’t admit it but that is what the church teaches of the sacraments. these are works.

Jerry-

You have access to the Catechism online. Please provide a reference to the Church’s teaching that “marriage is the way to salvation”.

Thanks.

 

[Pax]

well if scripture turns you off, i have nothing to say. as for the works: the communion of the eucharist is a necessity for salvation, if one does not participate in communion they are in danger of losing their salvation.

baptism is necessary for salvation.

marriage is the way to salvation.

that is why the church annuls it marriages when one gets divorced.

i could go on and on though you won’t admit it but that is what the church teaches of the sacraments. these are works.

Jerry in Christ,

This thread is about OSAS. You positively assert that OSAS is true. It is therefore your responsibility in a debate to prove it, and it is your responsibility to defend against all of the counter arguments presented against OSAS. For our discussion to be meaningful and productive, you really need to take our challenges head on. If the doctrine is sound then it will withstand the test of scrutiny.

IMHO the case for OSAS has not been established on this thread, and the arguments of scripture presented against it have not been refuted.

I appreciate your overall demeanor in the discussion. Please look carefully and objectively at the scriptural points and arguments against OSAS and tackle them head on.

Thanks in advance and God bless.

 

[Pax]

Jerry in Christ,

Here is another area of scripture that contradicts OSAS.

Please note that scripture talks about the names of the saved being written in “The Book of Life.” In Revelation 13:8 we read,

“and all who dwell on earth will worship it, every one whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain.”

Now, take note that the names written in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain are the names of the saved and they have been written in the book since before the foundation of the world. Not everybody’s name is written in the book of life. Moreover, it’s pretty clear from scripture that some people’s names couldn’t be written in the book of life because they never believed in Jesus as their Savior.

According to scripture a person’s name can be in the book of life, but once there that it can also be blotted out. This is evidenced by Revelation 3:4-5 where it says,

“Yet you have still a few persons in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes; they will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy.** If** you conquer, you will be clothed like them in white robes, and I will not blot your name out of the book of life; I will confess your name before my Father and before his angels.”

This is also evidenced in Psalm 69:28 where it says,

“Let them be blotted out of the book of the living; let them not be enrolled among the righteous.”

Now, if a person’s name is in the book of life they are saved. If their name is blotted out they have lost their salvation. Note, they are saved and then they are no longer saved. Once again, “once saved always saved” doesn’t meet the scriptural test.

Here is some more evidence from the OT.

Psalm 139:14-16
I praise thee, for thou art fearful and wonderful. Wonderful are thy works! Thou knowest me right well; my frame was not hidden from thee, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth. Thy eyes beheld my unformed substance; in thy book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.

Exodus 32:30-35
On the morrow Moses said to the people, “You have sinned a great sin. And now I will go up to the Lord; perhaps I can make atonement for your sin.” So Moses returned to the Lord and said, “Alas, this people have sinned a great sin; they have made for themselves gods of gold. But now, if thou wilt forgive their sin–and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written." But the Lord said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. But now go, lead the people to the place of which I have spoken to you; behold, my angel shall go before you. Nevertheless, in the day when I visit, I will visit their sin upon them.” And the Lord sent a plague upon the people, because they made the calf which Aaron made.

The threat of being blotted out of the “Book of Life” is quite clear in the book of Revelation.

In a final warning Jesus tells us in Rev 22:18-19,

“I warn every one who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if any one adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if any one takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.”

Please take note that Jesus is talking about heaven, and that if anyone adds or subtracts to the words of this book God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city. In other words that person was saved but has now lost that salvation. There share in the tree of life and in the holy city will be taken from them. They have lost their salvation.

“Once Saved always Saved?” Not a chance!

One thing I should have mentioned but did not. The portion of the quote that says, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book. is translated in the King James version as, "God shall take away his part out of the book of life,"

Could it be more clear than this? Obviously, you can lose your salvation.

I hope this gives you food for thought.

God bless.

 

[Maranatha33]

IMHO the case for OSAS has not been established on this thread, and the arguments of scripture presented against it have not been refuted.

Hi all!
I was going to stay away from posting, but felt the necessity to present my case for OSAS. I make no apologies for the number of Scripture quotes used. Men may be able to twist their opinion of what Scripture means, but the truth of Scripture is quite specific. That is why we use context, logic, lexicons, concordances, but most importantly, prayer and the Paraclete. Since this topic has been discussed ad nauseum, I will refrain from debating, and submit this thesis as written.

in Christ Jesus,

m33

The foundational belief of all major Christian denominations is that only the sacrifice of Jesus Christ is sufficient propitiation for the sins of man. OSAS is based on the one historical event at Calvary some 2000 years ago. Since this specific propitiation through the crucifixion and resurrection was only done “once for all” only one action is able to offer salvation. Once this offer has been given to man and accepted by “grace through faith” it has to be eternal because the Bible records no other possible means for salvation. If one can lose their salvation, Jesus would have to be crucified again, and that idea is simply unbiblical. There are no references to the crucifixion being performed more than once.

*Hebrews 5:10
10And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
*
Hebrews 7:27
27Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for His own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.

Hebrews 9:12, 15
12He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption.
15For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.
**
Note that the redemption (from sin) and inheritance (of heaven) are both eternal, thus only happen once.

**Hebrews 10:10, 12, 13.
10And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 12But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
(note. Verse 11 referred to the priests of the O.T., thus I felt it doesn’t apply. The quoted verses are eternal in nature, thus do apply.)

Jude 1
3Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints.

Romans 6
8Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

No replication of the crucifixion is possible because He can not die again.

The Roman Catholic doctrine of substantiation and immolation require Jesus to be brought back to earth in body and spirit, by the priest, and sacrificed repeatedly. To make sure that I have obtained this doctrine accurately, I have quoted 3 reputable sources.

The Glories of Mary says this, “We are struck with wonder when we find that in obedience to the words of his priest, Hocus Corpus Meum, this is My body, God Himself descends on the altar. God comes whenever the priest calls him and as often as they call Him and places Himself in their hands (even they)…even though they should be His enemies.”

The Roman Catholic Catechism, a more current one, quotes Vatican II: “As often as the sacrifice of the cross by which Christ has been sacrificed is celebrated on the altar, the work of our redemption is carried out.” It is a sacrifice, it is an actual sacrifice though unbloody, of the real Christ made on a real altar by a real priest, but He is still immolated. Immolation is the sacrificial killing of a victim. They say in the Mass Christ is actually immolated. He is sacrificially killed. Christ becomes “the Most Holy Victim, actually present in flesh and spirit and divinity in the bread and the wine.

John O’Brien, a Catholic priest, has helped Roman Catholics to understand the importance of the Mass. He has written a book called The Faith of Millions, The Credentials of the Catholic Religion.
“… the priest brings Christ down from heaven and renders Him present on our altar as the eternal victim for the sins of man, not once but a thousand times. Christ the eternal and omnipotent God bows His head in humble obedience to the priest’s command.”

From J.C. Ryle.
“A sacrifice that needs to be repeated is not a perfect or complete thing. You spoil the priestly office of Christ. If there are priests that can offer an acceptable sacrifice to God besides Him, the great High Priest is robbed of His glory.”

1 Peter 3
18For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

The OSAS act of salvation is the Baptism John refers to in his Gospel. Immersion is the act of dying to one’s self, being brought back up is becoming alive through Christ. And the seal of this baptism is receiving the Holy Spirit. John refers to Jesus when he says “He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.” This is the once saved action that causes (eternal) always saved. There is no other way to one’s salvation according to the Bible.
I can find no Scriptural evidence that the Son of God will ever be submissive to man, only that all will be submissive to Him.

 

[rinnie]

Maranatha, Could you please tell me how you can get into heaven without obeying the ten commandments. If you die in mortal sin you are not getting into heaven. The bible tells us so. SO unless you are saying that the ten commandments are the commands of Man and Not God, you make no sense. And you have no idea what the Catholic faith teaches. So can you show me how you can not obey the ten commandments and still be saved. SHow me scripture and then you can have some merit. The bible says if you Love me you will do my works. You make no sense to me. SO again please show me where the bible say we do not have to have Faith and works together. Thank-you. And please do not try to teach the Catholic faith when it is plain you do not understand it.

 

[rinnie]

And as far as communion goes the words of Jesus are . This is my BOdy which has been given up for you, and this is my blood. I go by the words of Jesus, what gives you the authority to change them?

 

[CentralFLJames]

I can find no Scriptural evidence that the Son of God will ever be submissive to man, only that all will be submissive to Him.

You are creating false dichotomies. You act as if God and man must always be at odds to God’s will. The entire point of Christianity is to make mankind friends with God again. In the NT it ALL starts with Mary submitting herself to God.

*Luke 1:38 38"I am the Lord’s servant," Mary answered. “May it be to me as you have said.” *

You Protestants often seem to be of the Doubting Thomas variety of Christian or what I call “the Show Me” variety. If you can not see things in scripture than you can not believe in Christ. Thank goodness NONE of the early Church Christians were of this variety since scripture was not assembled all together and widely read holistically until after 382 AD.

The problem in this kind of “show me” faith is that those who do not have eyes for scripture can not and will not see the truth - no matter how hard they look. Pride and stubborn refusal to be taught anything is what makes it too hard for most of you to convert. This is why one must be taught by an apostolic successor who actually has the authority to teach. Case in point - scripture proves what you said is inaccurate.
Luke 2:48-52
48When they saw Him, they were astonished; and His mother said to Him, “Son, why have You treated us this way? Behold, Your father and I have been anxiously looking for You.” 49And He said to them, “Why is it that you were looking for Me? Did you not know that I had to be in My Father’s house?” 50But they did not understand the statement which He had made to them. 51And He went down with them and came to Nazareth, and He continued in subjection to them; and His mother treasured all these things in her heart. 52And Jesus kept increasing in wisdom and stature, and in (AX)favor with God and men.

John 2:4-6
When the wine ran short, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.”
4 (And) Jesus said to her, “Woman, how does your concern affect me? My hour has not yet come.” 5 His mother said to the servers, “Do whatever he tells you.”
*



James

 

[CentralFLJames]

The verse in this last week’s 2nd church readings annihilates OSAS.

John addresses us as if he is our father (e.g. my children) and tells us that we should not commit sin but if we do we have an advocate - we may be forgiven. But the only way to have assurances of salvation is to keep His commandments. But the person who claims Jesus is their personal Lord and Savior and DOES NOT keep his commandments is a LIAR AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN THEM. Whereas the one who keeps His commandments perfects himself and can have the assurance of salvation. If OSAS was true it would be impossible to sin at all while proclaiming Christ as Lord and in such a case John would have no reason to be warning us not to sin and to perfect ourselves.

***1 Jn 2:1-5a **

My children, I am writing this to you
so that you may not commit sin.
But if anyone does sin, we have an Advocate with the Father,
Jesus Christ the righteous one.
He is expiation for our sins,
and not for our sins only but for those of the whole world.
The way we may be sure that we know him is to keep
his commandments.
Those who say, “I know him,” but do not keep his commandments
are liars, and the truth is not in them.
But whoever keeps his word,
the love of God is truly perfected in him.*

OSAS is a lie and those who teach it SIN and do not have the truth in them.

James

 

[Tomster]

The verse in this last week’s 2nd church readings annihilates OSAS.

John addresses us as if he is our father (e.g. my children) and tells us that we should not commit sin but if we do we have an advocate - we may be forgiven. But the only way to have assurances of salvation is to keep His commandments. But the person who claims Jesus is their personal Lord and Savior and DOES NOT keep his commandments is a LIAR AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN THEM. Whereas the one who keeps His commandments perfects himself and can have the assurance of salvation. If OSAS was true it would be impossible to sin at all while proclaiming Christ as Lord and in such a case John would have no reason to be warning us not to sin and to perfect ourselves.

***1 Jn 2:1-5a ***

My children, I am writing this to you
so that you may not commit sin.
But if anyone does sin, we have an Advocate with the Father,
Jesus Christ the righteous one.
He is expiation for our sins,
and not for our sins only but for those of the whole world.
The way we may be sure that we know him is to keep
his commandments.
Those who say, “I know him,” but do not keep his commandments
are liars, and the truth is not in them.
But whoever keeps his word,
the love of God is truly perfected in him.

OSAS is a lie and those who teach it SIN and do not have the truth in them.

James

:harp: AMEN, MY BROTHER :harp:

 

[Philthy]

Hi all!

Men may be able to twist their opinion of what Scripture means, but the truth of Scripture is quite specific. That is why we use context, logic, lexicons, concordances, but most importantly, prayer and the Paraclete.

 

[CentralFLJames]

… And Yet Another short but Ironclad refutation of OSAS by Catholic Apologist John Martignoni. Protestants should really love John Martignoni since he is from the deep south (complete with accent) and is a pure scripture-only Catholic apologist. His website has a great collection of tools and videos etc. to understand the Catholic Faith by “scripture alone” (website: biblechristiansociety.com).

John Martagnoni’s line of reasoning for debunking OSAS is as follows:
*When confronted with someone who believes in OSAS, the first question you need to ask is this: “If a baby dies, does it go to Heaven or Hell?” The majority of Protestants that I’ve come across who believe in OSAS, also believe that children who die before they are old enough to commit a sin, are saved – they go to Heaven. Even though the baby hasn’t been able to make a confession of faith, that baby still goes to Heaven. This belief, however, leads to a logical contradiction.

Consider that if a baby dies, and it goes to Heaven, then that means the baby was, in essence, “saved” while it was still alive. **However, if that child does not die, if the baby grows up and starts committing sins, yet never makes a personal commitment to Christ, never accepts Jesus into his heart as his personal Lord and Savior, then what happens? Is he still saved? The Protestant answer is: “No.” Which means that there was a point somewhere in that child’s life where it went from being saved, to being unsaved. **

But this is a big problem if OSAS is true. This [OSAS] doctrine teaches that a person cannot go from the state of being saved to the state of being unsaved. Which means, if the baby was saved, then he can never be unsaved, even if he grows up to be an unbelieving moral reprobate. Yet, no believer in OSAS would agree that an unbelieving moral reprobate is saved. So for those folks who believe in OSAS, yet also believe that babies that die go to Heaven, there is a logical contradiction in their beliefs.

There are only two ways around this problem: 1) To say that once saved always saved is true only after you have professed a belief in Jesus Christ, or 2) To say that babies who die before they are able to make a profession of faith automatically go to Hell.

The first line of reasoning is simply a position that one would back into out of necessity so as to avoid the contradiction in logic that has been exposed in their beliefs. “Uhmm, oh yeah, I forgot to mention that once saved always saved doesn’t kick in until after you make a profession of faith in Christ.” Oh, really? And where does it say that in the Bible? And how does that make any sense whatsoever? Is being saved as a baby somehow different than being saved as an adult? What a ridiculous notion. Either you’re saved or you’re not. And if you are saved, and once saved always saved is true, then if you’re saved as a baby you have to be saved as an adult – whether you ever profess faith in Christ or not. After all, you cannot lose your salvation.
*

From my perspective, given John’s line of reasoning OSAS advocates persisting in this nonsence must then also annihilate sola-fide since we just showed a clear case where a person can be saved without sola fide (e.g. by faith alone).

James