OSAS

[CentralFLJames]

depends which commandments you speak of my friend, Jesus spoke of the commandments in matthew 5:17-20. verse 20 in particular is quite interesting pertaining to the law. “I tell you, unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter into the kingdom of heaven.” the scribes and pharisees were the interpreters of Scripture, the so called experts of God’s law. they knew especially the scribes who would copy the wording onto other scrolls to keep it in tact. these guys would put heavy yokes on the people as to how they saw the law to be or how one should live. a good example of this would be on divorce where there were two different sects but that in all is another issue which is not pertaining of this thread. anyway, the key to this verse is that if we live by the law we must follow it to the tee. or we ‘will not enter the kingdom of heaven.’ remember the rich man.

…
what pleases God? faith, without it you can not please God.

God bless.

Jerry - you are out in the weeds on this one. The statement about having virtue greater than the Pharisees and the scribes is talking about being sincere in worship rather than putting on false airs and beeing seen fasting etc. The LAW is still 100% in effect and is in fact more intense now than ever since even improper thoughts are as bad as the actual deed (e.g. lusting).

Someone has brainwashed you with neo-Christian teaching. FAITH is the MINIMUM necessary to gain salvation. Faith without works is UTTERLY DEAD DEAD DEAD and false faith. LOVE is the premier thing that one needs to become Christlike. Grace begets love and faith and hope. From that comes expressions of love - what we call works.

By definition a person who commits grave sin is not in a love relationship with God has a DEAD faith as well. You can’t slice and dice and seperate love from faith from works from holiness. Impossible.

If a person has a single unrepentant and unforgiven grave post-baptismal sin you don’t have love and you have a false faith and are headed to hell - its that simple.

James

 

[Jerry_Marino]

How is it "hard to get to heaven"?****

hmm, how hard is it?

on my own it would be very hard, on second thought, IMPOSSIBLE!

but with God all things are possible even a sinner as myself who has been pardoned of all sin can get in, that’s right i can get in cause the price has been paid in full by Jesus Christ.

look at this:
Deuteronomy 30:11 "For this command which I enjoin on you today is not too mysterious and remote for you. 12 It is not up in the sky, that you should say, ‘Who will go up in the sky to get it for us and tell us of it, that we may carry it out?’ 13 Nor is it across the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross the sea to get it for us and tell us of it, that we may carry it out?’ 14 No, it is something very near to you, already in your mouths and in your hearts; you have only to carry it out. 15 "Here, then, I have today set before you life and prosperity, death and doom.

now here is the commentary of that Scripture by none other than paul inspired by the Holy Spirit:

Romans 10:5 Moses writes about the righteousness that comes from (the) law, “The one who does these things will live by them.” 6 But the righteousness that comes from faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will go up into heaven?’ (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 or ‘Who will go down into the abyss?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).”
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we preach), 9 for, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10
For one believes with the heart and so is justified, and one confesses with the mouth and so is saved. 11 For the scripture says, “No one who believes in him will be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all, enriching all who call upon him. 13 For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

it is pretty hard to believe such a thing?

God bless

 

[SteveGC]

the main question i ask is: if you did nothing to earn your salvation, what can you do to keep it?

First of all, even in your idea of salvation, even you, yourself, DID earn it, Jerry. You decided to believe. If you decided not to believe, it doesn’t mean the gift was never there to begin with. It’s been there for 2000 years, offered to everyone, in every place, for all time. I think you confuse the free, undeserved “offering” of a gift, with the conditional acceptance and receipt of that gift.

Secondly, even if you don’t think you earned it with your belief, I was wondering why you think something undeservedly offered and received has to be uncontrollably kept.

I did nothing to earn my physical life. What makes you think I have no say (or no duty) in whether or not I keep it?

I did nothing to merit the $20 my dad just gave me. Why do you think my dad is responsible for ensuring I hold onto it, or use it wisely?

Anything we receive without effort does not remain with us simply because we did not deserve it to begin with. Nothing is like that. Things remains with us because we nurture them, and care for them, and are intelligent with them, and not wasteful, or take them for granted.

This is no different with our spiritual life. Why would it be? Why should it be? God’s not offended when we take responsibility, and take action, to cooperate with the free gift. He’s offended when we presume He’ll do all the work.

God Bless

 

[Randy_Carson]

I write these things to you so that you may know that you have eternal life, you who believe in the name of the Son of God.

1 John 5:13 – That you may know you have eternal life
Taken from Assurance of Salvation
catholic.com/library/Assurance_of_Salvation.asp

Related to the issue of whether one can lose one’s salvation is the question of whether one can know with complete certainty that one is in a state of salvation. Even if one could not lose one’s salvation, one still might not be sure whether one ever had salvation. Similarly, even if one could be sure that one is now in a state of salvation, one might be able to fall from grace in the future. The “knowability” of salvation is a different question than the “loseability” of salvation.

From the Radio Bible Class listeners can obtain a booklet called Can Anyone Really Know for Sure? The anonymous author says the “Lord Jesus wanted his followers to be so sure of their salvation that they would rejoice more in the expectation of heaven than in victories on earth. ‘These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God (1 John 5:13).’”

Places where Scripture speaks of our ability to know that we are abiding in grace are important and must be taken seriously. But they do not promise that we will be protected from self-deception on this matter. Even the author of Can Anyone Really Know for Sure? admits that there is a false assurance: “The New Testament teaches us that genuine assurance is possible and desirable, but it also warns us that we can be deceived through a false assurance. Jesus declared: ‘Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord” shall enter the kingdom of heaven’ (Matt. 7:21).”

Sometimes Fundamentalists portray Catholics as if they must every moment be in terror of losing their salvation since Catholics recognize that it is possible to lose salvation through mortal sin. Fundamentalists then hold out the idea that, rather than living every moment in terror, they can have a calm, assured knowledge that they will, in fact, be saved, and that nothing will ever be able to change this fact.

But this portrayal is in error. Catholics do not live lives of mortal terror concerning salvation. True, salvation can be lost through mortal sin, but such sins are by nature grave ones, and not the kind that a person living the Christian life is going to slip into committing on the spur of the moment, without deliberate thought and consent. Neither does the Catholic Church teach that one cannot have an assurance of salvation. This is true both of present and future salvation.

One can be confident of one’s present salvation. This is one of the chief reasons why God gave us the sacraments—to provide visible assurances that he is invisibly providing us with his grace. And one can be confident that one has not thrown away that grace by simply examining one’s life and seeing whether one has committed mortal sin. Indeed, the tests that John sets forth in his first epistle to help us know whether we are abiding in grace are, in essence, tests of whether we are dwelling in grave sin. For example, “By this it may be seen who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not do right is not of God, nor he who does not love his brother” (1 John 3:10), “If any one says, ‘I love God,’ and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen” (1 John 4:20), “For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome” (1 John 5:3).

Likewise, by looking at the course of one’s life in grace and the resolution of one’s heart to keep following God, one can also have an assurance of future salvation. It is this Paul speaks of when he writes to the Philippians and says, “And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ” (Phil. 1:6). This is not a promise for all Christians, or even necessarily all in the church at Philippi, but it is a confidence that the Philippian Christians in general would make it. The basis of this is their spiritual performance to date, and Paul feels a need to explain to them that there is a basis for his confidence in them. Thus he says, immediately, “It is right for me to feel thus about you all, because I hold you in my heart, for you are all partakers with me of grace, both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel” (1:7). The fact that the Philippians performed spiritually by assisting Paul in his imprisonment and ministry showed that their hearts were with God and that it could be expected that they, at least in general, would persevere and remain with God.

There are many saintly men and women who have long lived the Christian life and whose characters are marked with profound spiritual joy and peace. Such individuals can look forward with confidence to their reception in heaven.

Such an individual was Paul, writing at the end of his life, “I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that Day” (2 Tim. 4:7-8). But earlier in life, even Paul did not claim an infallible assurance, either of his present justification or of his remaining in grace in the future. Concerning his present state, he wrote, “I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby justified [Gk., *dedikaiomai]. It is the Lord who judges me” (1 Cor. 4:4). Concerning his remaining life, Paul was frank in admitting that even he could fall away: “I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified” (1 Cor. 9:27). Of course, for a spiritual giant such as Paul, it would be quite unexpected and out of character for him to fall from God’s grace. Nevertheless, he points out that, however much confidence in his own salvation he may be warranted in feeling, even he cannot be infallibly sure either of his own present state or of his future course.

 

[Philthy]

Guys, have you ever wondered that the problem might not be in understanding “always saved”, but rather in understanding “once saved”? Do you even like the phrase “once saved”? Even though Paul and Peter talk a lot about the past tense finished event, do you really like such a notion?

Could your issue be more with understanding that the ‘believing’ you talk about holding onto til death was a gift from God all along (see Eph 2:8,9)?

Hi and welcome to the forums! :tiphat:

• The term “once saved” is a necessary term - not in the numerical sense of the term “once”, but in the sense that a definitive transition has occurred from unsaved to saved.
• There is a past tense sense to salvation, though I disagree with the “finished” notion. Our salvation is not “finished” until we are glorified and in Heaven.
• The fact that the “believing” spoken of is a gift from God does not change the reality that we must accept, practice, develop and hold onto that gift; we must persevere to the end to be saved; we must continue forgiving others in order for the Father to forgive us, we must work out our salvation and we must avoid those sins which so offend God that they kill the life of God within us.

 

[Philthy]

Hi Jerry -this is a reposting of #78 which you have now ignored twice. Any chance you can answer any of these?

Originally Posted by Jerry #72
because all don’t answer His call that is why all are not saved and some think they are saved by thinking they have do certain things in life. but as far fetched this might seem to some of you, and like the old cliche, ‘this is too good to be true’, Jesus died for your sins and today we celebrate His victory over death! just believe and the rest will fall into place don’t depend on what you can do depend on what He has already done for you.

While I appreciate your answer here you have, once again, sort of ignored many of my points in your answer. Let me summarize our conversation in this thread in the hope that you might actually address some of the critical points.

In response to my request for the basis of your belief in OSAS you offered Romans 8:31-39 which speaks of God’s undying, irrevocable love for us. You also added at the end of the same post (34) the following comment: The all-conquering power of God’s love has overcome every obstacle to Christians’ salvation and every threat to separate them from God.
I asked you specifically (post 34):

Do you somehow equate the fact that if God loves us then we will be saved?

And I went on to point out to you that God loves all of his creation, not just Christians. And I provided Scripture to support that claim. Namely “God is love” – its his nature – and the reality that “God proves his love in that WHILE WE WERE STILL SINNERS Christ died for us”. This last verse, in particular, clearly demonstrates that before any Christians existed God loved us. This reality that God loves all mankind – not merely Christians - refutes your contention that: OSAS is valid because “nothing can separate us from the love of God”.

• You never addressed my rebuttal of any of these issues in your subsequent posts. Have you nothing to offer in defense of your position?
  
  You later went on to present a separate reason for your belief in OSAS (post 64)

Jerry:

God’s desire is for all to be saved so many are called and few are chosen not because God doesn’t want to save someone but cause man doesn’t want to rely on God.

In addition to reiterating that God loves us whether we are Christian or not, this, clearly means that a man can choose to reject God’s will for his life and in making this choice cancel out the salvation that is God’s will for him. To me that strongly argues against OSAS. I summarized these thoughts in post 69:

= Philthy

]
*Another way of looking at this Jerry is that man’s choice of rejecting God obviates God’s desire for all to be saved. Our choices have real, eternal consequences. We simply don’t know with absolute certainty that we will never choose self over God. We can be very sure, but we cannot know with absolute certainty because our knowledge is limited by time, and nowhere in Scripture are our individual names mentioned regarding our salvation. *

• How is it that you arrive at the opposite conclusion – that despite having the capacity to choose self over God that we can’t lose our salvation? You will need to demonstrate that somehow when we are saved we no longer have the capacity to choose to reject God. You haven’t done that yet.
  
  To add further to the confusion you posted this:

Originally Posted by Jerry #72
* Jesus does not HOLD on to us if we will to leave Him. In Corinthians it says that “Love does not demand its own way” God is love. Therefore God does not demand His own way. If we want to leave He lets us leave. If you don’t believe that then go join the puppets!*

Jerry ISTM that you don’t actually believe in OSAS? If you did then you would never say any of the above! I am hopeful that perhaps, as I suggested very early, that you are confusing Assurance of Salvation and OSAS. I guess maybe I should just articulate the difference right now.

Assurance of Salvation: the belief that if I were to die RIGHT NOW I would go to Heaven.
Once Saved Always Saved: the belief that one will go to Heaven no matter what happens between now and the time of death – that even if “I want to leave He” WON”T let me leave.

• **Which of these is it that you believe - or do you truly believe both? **

 

[Jerry_Marino]

Jerry - you are out in the weeds on this one. James

i just bought a weed eater

 

[Jerry_Marino]

Here’s the part about OSAS I don’t get.

How is it possible to have absolute assurance at any single point in your life, if you have to wait to see if your profession of faith was genuine by manifesting itself in the bearing of fruit, and repentance of sin?
God Bless

do you think king david was saved?

let’s look at Psalms 51 to check david’s position with God after his sin with beersheba:
1 For the leader. A psalm of David, 2 when Nathan the prophet came to him after his affair with Bathsheba. 3 Have mercy on me, God, in your goodness; in your abundant compassion blot out my offense. 4 Wash away all my guilt; from my sin cleanse me. 5
For I know my offense; my sin is always before me. 6 Against you alone have I sinned; I have done such evil in your sight That you are just in your sentence, blameless when you condemn. 7 True, I was born guilty, a sinner, even as my mother conceived me. 8 Still, you insist on sincerity of heart; in my inmost being teach me wisdom. 9 Cleanse me with hyssop, that I may be pure; wash me, make me whiter than snow. 10 Let me hear sounds of joy and gladness; let the bones you have crushed rejoice. 11 Turn away your face from my sins; blot out all my guilt. 12 A clean heart create for me, God; renew in me a steadfast spirit. 13 Do not drive me from your presence, nor take from me your holy spirit. 14 Restore my joy in your salvation; sustain in me a willing spirit. 15 I will teach the wicked your ways, that sinners may return to you. 16 Rescue me from death, God, my saving God, that my tongue may praise your healing power. 17 Lord, open my lips; my mouth will proclaim your praise. 18 For you do not desire sacrifice; a burnt offering you would not accept. 19 My sacrifice, God, is a broken spirit; God, do not spurn a broken, humbled heart. 20 Make Zion prosper in your good pleasure; rebuild the walls of Jerusalem. 21 Then you will be pleased with proper sacrifice, burnt offerings and holocausts; then bullocks will be offered on your altar.

i am not an apologists or theologian like most on here so i’ll just stick to what i see from Scripture to your points in this one chapter:

genuine faith, broken spirit and broken humbled heart v 19.
bearing fruit, proclaim God’s praise v17 v20 rebuilding the walls.
repentance of sin, the whole chapter.
now if you will notice on all this it is not david who will do this but God who WILL do it thru david but first comes our broken spirit, if one has not humbled himself before the Lord then there is not salvation.

now to my stance of salvation, david sinned as we know but he did not lose his salvation. v14 shows us that cause of his request to God of restoration of ‘joy’ in God’s salvation when we sin as all can attest to it, we are down in spirit cause we have grieved the Spirit living within each believer and that is good sign. david does not ask restore my salvation cause like it says in Hebrews we would be sacrificing Christ all over again for He died for all sins.

the consequence of unconfessed sin is found in v13. it goes with the brother who sinned with his stepmother who was excommunicated from the church so that he may be saved. nathan confronted david and confessed and was restored in the proper relation with God just as the brother from corinth.

2 Corinthians 2:5 If anyone has caused pain, he has caused it not to me, but in some measure (not to exaggerate) to all of you. 6 This punishment by the majority is enough for such a person, 7 so that on the contrary you should forgive and encourage him instead, or else the person may be overwhelmed by excessive pain. 8 Therefore, I urge you to reaffirm your love for him. 9 For this is why I wrote, to know your proven character, whether you were obedient in everything. 10 Whomever you forgive anything, so do I. For indeed what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for you in the presence of Christ, 11 so that we might not be taken advantage of by Satan, for we are not unaware of his purposes.

big word here is ‘if’ one is a believer he can be sure of his salvation.

Luke 18:9 He then addressed this parable to those who were convinced of their own righteousness and despised everyone else. 10 "Two people went up to the temple area to pray; one was a Pharisee and the other was a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee took up his position and spoke this prayer to himself, ‘O God, I thank you that I am not like the rest of humanity–greedy, dishonest, adulterous–or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week, and I pay tithes on my whole income.’ 13 But the tax collector stood off at a distance and would not even raise his eyes to heaven but beat his breast and prayed, ‘O God, be merciful to me a sinner.’ 14 I tell you, the latter went home justified, not the former; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and the one who humbles himself will be exalted."

who walked away justified?

God bless you.

 

[SteveGC]

do you think king david was saved?

I do, but it was not a permanent gift given to him at his first profession of faith, nor at any time that he repented of sins. His ultimate salvation was because he was in a right relationship with God at the moment of his death, regardless of where he was in his life at any moment(s) prior to his death.

You say that Ps 51 reveals that salvation is never restored, but rather the “joy” of salvation is restored. But the second part of that verse (which is 12, not 14) is, “…and grant me a willing spirit, to sustain me”. Why would David need to request a willing spirit, to sustain him, if he already has it? As you would attest, clearly David is saved already, and his repentance proves it, but yet he is asking for perserverance in the faith. Why?

The other question I have for you would be…at what point was David assured of his salvation? When he first professed his faith? When he repented after sinning? When he bore some good fruit? When did he KNOW absolutely?

When did YOU know absolutely? Did you not have to “prove” your true faith (be a true believer) before you knew you were saved? Did you “prove” this true belief to yourself when you asked Christ into your heart the very first time? Or did your absolute assurance evolve over a period of time within which you lived according to your belief?

Your Corinthians example says nothing about assurance of salvation, but I know you think it does because of the word “justified”, which you think covers the tax collector for the rest of his life. Catholics agree that justification requires belief and repentance. No argument there. But of course we would disagree on the need for baptism as well.

i just bought a weed eater

funny thing about weed-eaters, though. They never really kill the weeds.

 

[CentralFLJames]

…funny thing about weed-eaters, though. They never really kill the weeds.

Yeah, nor do they distinguish weed from true-turf and shave both together to a uniform height. It looks pretty for a few days but then the weeds come growing right back again at different rates and make the whole field get it all ugly splotched, non-uniform height and unsightly again.

James

 

[The_Question]

Hi Jerry -this is a reposting of #78 which you have now ignored twice. Any chance you can answer any of these?

While I appreciate your answer here you have, once again, sort of ignored many of my points in your answer. Let me summarize our conversation in this thread in the hope that you might actually address some of the critical points.

In response to my request for the basis of your belief in OSAS you offered Romans 8:31-39 which speaks of God’s undying, irrevocable love for us. You also added at the end of the same post (34) the following comment: The all-conquering power of God’s love has overcome every obstacle to Christians’ salvation and every threat to separate them from God.
I asked you specifically (post 34):

And I went on to point out to you that God loves all of his creation, not just Christians. And I provided Scripture to support that claim. Namely “God is love” – its his nature – and the reality that “God proves his love in that WHILE WE WERE STILL SINNERS Christ died for us”. This last verse, in particular, clearly demonstrates that before any Christians existed God loved us. This reality that God loves all mankind – not merely Christians - refutes your contention that: OSAS is valid because “nothing can separate us from the love of God”.

• You never addressed my rebuttal of any of these issues in your subsequent posts. Have you nothing to offer in defense of your position?
  
  You later went on to present a separate reason for your belief in OSAS (post 64)
  
  In addition to reiterating that God loves us whether we are Christian or not, this, clearly means that a man can choose to reject God’s will for his life and in making this choice cancel out the salvation that is God’s will for him. To me that strongly argues against OSAS. I summarized these thoughts in post 69:

= Philthy

• How is it that you arrive at the opposite conclusion – that despite having the capacity to choose self over God that we can’t lose our salvation? You will need to demonstrate that somehow when we are saved we no longer have the capacity to choose to reject God. You haven’t done that yet.
  
  To add further to the confusion you posted this:
  
  Jerry ISTM that you don’t actually believe in OSAS? If you did then you would never say any of the above! I am hopeful that perhaps, as I suggested very early, that you are confusing Assurance of Salvation and OSAS. I guess maybe I should just articulate the difference right now.
  
  Assurance of Salvation: the belief that if I were to die RIGHT NOW I would go to Heaven.
  Once Saved Always Saved: the belief that one will go to Heaven no matter what happens between now and the time of death – that even if “I want to leave He” WON”T let me leave.
• **Which of these is it that you believe - or do you truly believe both? **

Guys, when you get salvation right, then you’ll get the DURATION of salvation right. They are inseparably linked!

 

[Jerry_Marino]

Matthew 24:13
“He who endures to the end will be saved.”

well if you are around during these times that Jesus speaks of, i hope you will endure. these times are during the tribulation and of course the church would have resurrected by then.

Titus 3:4 But when the kindness and generous love of God our savior appeared, 5 not because of any righteous deeds we had done but because of his mercy, he saved us through the bath of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he richly poured out on us through Jesus Christ our savior, 7 so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.

God bless

 

[CentralFLJames]

well if you are around during these times that Jesus speaks of, i hope you will endure. these times are during the tribulation and of course the church would have resurrected by then.

Titus 3:4 But when the kindness and generous love of God our savior appeared, 5 not because of any righteous deeds we had done but because of his mercy, he saved us through the bath of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he richly poured out on us through Jesus Christ our savior, 7 so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.

God bless

Goof gracious Jerry. I have never seen such twisted interpretation of scripture. The very quotes you use CONTRADICT what you said they say. And to then make the ridiculous claim that the part that says “he who perseveres to the end” only applies to the period of tribulation and not to one’s own personal tribulations in life is extremely, and utterly devoid of reason. But most importantly NO APOSTLE EVER TAUGHT THIS. You are just parroting some other neo-Christian teaching that men invented in the 1550’s.

Please explain the certitude of salvation in vs 7 that YOU quote:

"…7 so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life."

I see two indefinite articles here: MIGHT and HOPE. By what Protestant alchemy do those two words become MUST and a GUARANTEE???

Would you purchase a used car from a salesman who wrote a usability warranty that read "…you might be justified in paying a life’s wage for this car if your hope that it works forever bears out and the other usual conditions apply (e.g. you don’t crash it into a wall or use it for illegal purposes in the commission of crimes and fail to take care of it according to original manufacturer’s maintenance schedule or do something totally irresponsible).

James

 

[The_Question]

well if you are around during these times that Jesus speaks of, i hope you will endure. these times are during the tribulation and of course the church would have resurrected by then.

Titus 3:4 But when the kindness and generous love of God our savior appeared, 5 not because of any righteous deeds we had done but because of his mercy, he saved us through the bath of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he richly poured out on us through Jesus Christ our savior, 7 so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.

God bless

I feel for people who don’t understand what exactly happened at the cross. Not only were ALL our sins, past, present and future punished, but Rom 6 makes it clear THE OLD MAN DIED at the cross! Therefor it is IMPOSSIBLE for someone who is truly saved to ever perish. If you don’t understand Rom 6, better get busy studying it. It’s not light reading; it’s not milk. But it pronounces the deathknell to the possibility of a born again child of God being anywhere except under the love and care of his heavenly Father for eternity. You can argue otherwise, but you’ll have to take scissors to that chapter (and Rom 8 as well!) If you don’t understand key passages like that, you can argue all you want and think it makes sense…always the peril of ignoring the whole counsel of God’s word.

 

[CentralFLJames]

I feel for people who don’t understand what exactly happened at the cross. Not only were ALL our sins, past, present and future punished, but Rom 6 makes it clear THE OLD MAN DIED at the cross! Therefor it is IMPOSSIBLE for someone who is truly saved to ever perish. If you don’t understand Rom 6, better get busy studying it. It’s not light reading; it’s not milk. But it pronounces the deathknell to the possibility of a born again child of God being anywhere except under the love and care of his heavenly Father for eternity. You can argue otherwise, but you’ll have to take scissors to that chapter (and Rom 8 as well!) If you don’t understand key passages like that, you can argue all you want and think it makes sense…always the peril of ignoring the whole counsel of God’s word.

What old man died on the cross TQ? Jesus died on the cross and he was hardly an old man. You did not die on the cross and I did not die on the cross – only Jesus died on the cross.

Take scissors to Romans? Didn’t anyone tell you that rock, as in the rock of Peter, breaks scissors every time? While it is true that we are joined to Christ’s death and suffering through baptism you can’t ignore the rest of scripture that tells us that no one is saved except the man who manages to finish in Christ and die in Christ at the time of his natural life is over. Were the lip-service Christians in John 6:66 “truly saved” for turning their backs on Jesus and walking away after hearing and rejecting His difficult teaching on the necessity for eating His body and drinking His blood?

And a final question. Do you imagine that it is your place to judge for yourself who is “truly saved” before God gets to rule on the matter?

Do you judge yourself to be “truly saved”? Do you obey ALL Christ’s commandments - including the one about eating His Body and drinking His blood?

James

 

[The_Question]

What old man died on the cross TQ? Jesus died on the cross and he was hardly an old man. You did not die on the cross and I did not die on the cross – only Jesus died on the cross.

Take scissors to Romans? Didn’t anyone tell you that rock, as in the rock of Peter, breaks scissors every time? While it is true that we are joined to Christ’s death and suffering through baptism you can’t ignore the rest of scripture that tells us that no one is saved except the man who manages to finish in Christ and die in Christ at the time of his natural life is over. Were the lip-service Christians in John 6:66 “truly saved” for turning their backs on Jesus and walking away after hearing and rejecting His difficult teaching on the necessity for eating His body and drinking His blood?

And a final question. Do you imagine that it is your place to judge for yourself who is “truly saved” before God gets to rule on the matter?

Do you judge yourself to be “truly saved”? Do you obey ALL Christ’s commandments - including the one about eating His Body and drinking His blood?

James

Wow. That’s pretty embarrassing…for you. You just showed me you have never even read Rom 6! When you understand what happened at the cross you will see how unnecessary a lot of your questions and issues are. Let’s talk in a few months!

 

[CentralFLJames]

Wow. That’s pretty embarrassing…for you. You just showed me you have never even read Rom 6! When you understand what happened at the cross you will see how unnecessary a lot of your questions and issues are. Let’s talk in a few months!

Embarassing for ME? Defend your faith and answer my questions please.

Talk in a few months? As if it takes more than 2 minutes to re-read Romans 6? Are you serious?

Talk to me when you read the rest of scripture on the matter:

II. We are not Guaranteed Salvation; We Hope For Salvation
Heb. 7:27, 9:12,26;10:10; 1 Pet 3:18 - Jesus died once and redeemed us all, but we participate in the application of His redemption by the way in which we live.

Heb. 9:12 - Christ’s sacrifice secured our redemption, but redemption is not the same thing as salvation. We participate in and hope for salvation. Our hope in salvation is a guarantee if we are faithful to Christ to the end. But if we lose hope and fail to persevere, we can lose our salvation. Thus, by our own choosing (not by God’s doing), salvation is not a certainty. While many Protestant churches believe in the theology of “once saved, always saved,” such a novel theory is not found in Scripture and has never been taught by the Church.

Rom. 5:2 - we rejoice in the “hope” (not the presumptuous certainty) of sharing the glory of God. If salvation is absolutely assured after accepting Jesus as Savior, why would Paul hope?

Rom. 5:5 - this “hope” does not disappoint us, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit. Our hope is assured if we persevere to the end.

Rom. 8:24 - this “hope” of salvation that Paul writes about is unnecessary if salvation is guaranteed. If salvation is assured, then why hope?

Rom. 10:1 - Paul prays that the Jews “may be saved.” Why pray if it’s guaranteed? Further, why pray unless you can mediate?

Rom. 12:12 - rejoice in your “hope” (not your certainty), be patient in tribulation, and be constant in prayer.

2 Cor. 3:12 - since we have a “hope” (not a certainty), we are very bold. We can be bold when we are in God’s grace and our persevering in obedient faith.

Gal. 5:5 - for through the Spirit by faith we wait for the “hope” (not the certainty) of righteousness.

Eph. 1:18 - that you may know what is the “hope” to which He has called you, what are the riches of His glorious inheritance.

Eph. 4:4 - there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one “hope” (not the one certainty) that belongs to your call.

Eph. 6:10-17 – Paul instructs the Ephesians to take the whole armor of God, the breastplate of righteousness, and the helmet of salvation, in order “to stand,” lest they fall. Paul does not give any assurance that the spiritual battle is already won.

Phil. 3:11 - Paul shares Christ’s sufferings so that “if possible” he may attain resurrection. Paul does not view his own resurrection as a certainty.

Phil. 1:20 - as it is my eager expectation and “hope” (not certainty) that I shall not be at all ashamed before Christ.

Col. 1:5 - Paul refers to the “hope” (not guarantee) that Christ laid up for us in heaven.

Col. 1:23 - provided that you continue in the faith, not shifting from the “hope” of the gospel which you heard.

Col. 1:27 - to them God chose to make known His mystery, which is Christ in you, the “hope” (not the certainty) of His glory.

1 Thess. 1:3 - remembering before our God your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of “hope” in Jesus Christ.

1 Thess. 2:19 - for what is our “hope” or joy or crown of boasting before our Lord Jesus at his coming? Is it not you?

1 Thess. 5:8 - we must put on the helmet of “hope” (not of certainty) of salvation.

2 Thess. 2:16 - the Lord Jesus and God our Father who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good “hope” through grace.

1 Tim. 1:1 - Paul describes Christ Jesus as our “hope” (not our guarantee). We can reject Him and He will allow this.

1 Tim. 4:10 - Paul says we toil and strive because we have our “hope” (not our assurance) on the living God. This is not because God is unfaithful, but because we can be unfaithful. We toil and strive for our salvation.

1 Tim. 5:5 - she who is a real widow, and is left all alone, has set her “hope” (not her assurance) on God. Our hope is a guarantee only if we persevere to the end.

1 Tim. 5:15 – Paul writes that some have already strayed after satan, as God Himself tells us in 1 Tim. 4:1. They were on the right path, and then strayed off of it.

2 Tim. 2:10 - Paul endures for the elect so that they “may also obtain salvation.” This verse teaches us that even the "elect,” from the standpoint of human knowledge, have no guarantee of salvation.

[continued]

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

[from prior]

Titus 1:2 - Paul says that he is in the “hope” (not the certainty) of eternal life. Paul knows that his hope is a guarantee if he perseveres, but his ability to choose sin over God makes his attainment of eternal life less than an absolute certainty until it is actually achieved.

Titus 2:13 - awaiting our blessed “hope,” the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Titus 3:7 - Paul says we have been given the Spirit so we might become heirs in the “hope” (not the certainty) of eternal life.

Heb. 3:6 - we are Christ’s house if we hold fast our confidence and pride in our “hope” (not our certainty).

Heb. 6:11 - we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness in realizing the full assurance of “hope” (not certainty) until the end.

Heb. 6:18 - we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to seize the “hope” (not the certainty) that is set before us.

Heb. 6:19 - we have a “hope” that enters into the inner shrine behind the curtain, where Jesus has gone before us.

Heb. 7:19 - on the other hand, a better “hope” (not certainty) is introduced, through which we draw near to God.

Heb. 10:23 - let us hold fast the confession of our “hope” without wavering, for He who promised is faithful.

Heb. 11:1 - now faith is the assurance of things “hoped” for (not guaranteed), the conviction of things not seen (heaven).

Heb. 12:1 – let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us.

Heb. 12:15 – see to it that no one fail to obtain the grace of God; that no root of bitterness spring up and cause trouble, and by it many become defiled.

James 1:12 - we must endure trial and withstand the test in order to receive the crown of life. It is not guaranteed.

1 Peter 1:3 - by His mercy we have been born anew to a living “hope” through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

1 Peter 1:13 - set your “hope” (not assurance) fully upon the grace that is coming to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 1:21 - through Him you have confidence in God, who raised him from the dead so that your faith and “hope” are in God.

1 Peter 2:2 - like newborn babes, long for spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up to salvation. How can you grow up to something you already possess?

1 Peter 3:15 - always be prepared to make a defense to anyone who calls you to account for the “hope” that is in you.

1 John 3:3 - and everyone who thus “hopes” in Him purifies himself as He is pure. These verses teach us that we must cooperate with God’s grace and persevere to the end to be saved. We can and do have a moral certitude of salvation if we persevere in faith, hope and love.

More here: scripturecatholic.com/salvation.html

James

 

[SteveGC]

I feel for people who don’t understand what exactly happened at the cross. Not only were ALL our sins, past, present and future punished, but Rom 6 makes it clear THE OLD MAN DIED at the cross! .

I think you mean our own “old” selves died? But even so, that’s not accurate. Not at Calvary. Calvary gives everyone’s old self the capacity to die, but it does not die simply by virtue of Christ’s death and resurrection. The old self dies when we are born again in water and spirit (faith and baptism). The Spirit within us then gives to us (through Grace) the capacity to see the good works laid out before us which we must cooperate with (be obedient to) throughout our lives. As for the rest of your post, I’ll reply in a few minutes. In the meantime, James has given you plenty to chew on revealing just how NON-instantaneous salvation is.

God Bless

 

[Pax]

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not really of our number; 10 if they had been, they would have remained with us. Their desertion shows that none of them was of our number.

Not really of our number: the apostate teachers only proved their lack of faith by leaving the community.

according to john’s letter he never believed. your question also brings up to mind the story of the prodigal son who came to his senses and came back and also of the brother who slept with his stepmother in 1 corinthians 5 where he is to be handed to the devil so his flesh would be destroyed that his soul may be saved.

i am saved not by my own doing but by the promises of God and it is those promises i base my salvation. He said he would hold on to me, thank you Jesus!

God bless.

Jerry in Christ,

OSAS believers depend heavily on 1 John 2:19 which says:

“They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us.”

Please be advised that this verse does not support OSAS. This verse was written by John for the express purpose of warning Christian believers about false teachers that have gone out in the spirit of anti-Christ. It simply does not support OSAS. If anything it denies it. Let’s look at the verse in context.

1 John 2:18-25
“Children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come; therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us. But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all know. I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and know that no lie is of the truth. Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father. He who confesses the Son has the Father also. Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he has promised us, eternal life.”

This passage of scripture is telling us the following:

1. The anti-Christ is coming and is already working.
2. These anti-Christs are not to be listened to because they are false teachers.
3. They are recognized as false teachers because they have left the Church and its teachings. They even deny that Jesus is the Christ.
4. If they were not false teachers in the spirit of anti-Christ they would have continued in the fellowship of the church, but since they have left they are therefore easily recognized as false teachers.
5. The believers have already been given the truth and know the truth. There is no need for them to be taught something new.
6. No one who denies the Son has the Father. He who confesses the Son has the Father also.
7. The word abide means “remain(s)” and John says: "Let what you heard from the beginning abide[remain] in you. If what you heard from the beginning** abides[remains]** in you,** then** you will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he has promised us, eternal life.

This entire passage is a warning to believers concerning false teachers in the spirit of the anti-Christ. Moreover, the warning clearly indicates that the truth that these believers were taught from the beginning must “remain” in them for them to remain in the Father and the Son. If they remain faithful they will receive eternal life.

This passage is a denial of OSAS and in no way supports it.

I hope this helps.