OSAS

[The_Question]

thanks for proving rin’s point…“not approved” means still saved? “reprobate” too?? Let’s see…

rep⋅ro⋅bate   /ˈrɛprəˌbeɪt/ noun, adjective, verb, -bat⋅ed, -bat⋅ing.
–noun 1. a depraved, unprincipled, or wicked person: a drunken reprobate.
2. a person rejected by God and beyond hope of salvation.

Hmm.
Rubbish. “sound hermeneutics”?? Really?

*1 Corinthians 9:24-27
24Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.
25Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
26Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
27but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified. *

Let’s work backwards (vss 27 back to 24) Paul doesn’t want to be a reprobate; so he disciplines his body for what? To have focus, and purpose. For what? To receive an imperishable wreath, the prize (clearly salvation). How? By winning the race (clearly implying perserverance from a combination of God’s Grace and one’s own effort).

I know you mean well, but again…we’re borderline on silliness here.

God Bless

Additionally, I’m guessing that you do not know the difference between the Great White Throne Judgement and the Bema–the judgement seat of Christ. The latter is where the saved will be judged…

*Bema Seat - What Is It and When Is It?
The concept of the Bema Seat comes from the ancient Olympics, where a judge would sit on the Bema Seat at the finish line. The judge’s purpose was to determine what position the runners came in-first, second, and so on-and then to give out the appropriate rewards. That is the imagery behind what is known as the Bema Seat.

Also known as the Judgment Seat of Christ, the Bema Seat is described in 1 Corinthians 3:12-15, “If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.” Your gold, silver, and costly stones are works done for the glory of God, with the right motive, and in dependence upon the power of the Holy Spirit. *

 

[The_Question]

Who is saying we can’t be saved from Grace? Quite the opposite Roman Catholic’s know quite well we are saved by Grace. Why don’t you show me the scripture that says we cannot fall from Grace. What the devils in too? Are you saying he is saved. Because you can be assured of one thing the devil believes. He know’s that Jesus died on the Cross and came back. He is afraid of Jesus. He knows the Power he has. And he knows he can never beat Jesus, only one way, is he knows the Love Jesus has for us. So he can only hurt him by turning us against him because we have free will. But please don’t tell me you believe that the devils getting in too. And can’t tempt us.

The problem is that when you see everything through the lens of works rather than grace, you ignore scriptures right before your eyes. If you read what Paul says here in Rom 8 and take him at his word, take the clear spirit of what he is saying, then this is the passage you need:
31What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written:
“For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”[l] 37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[m] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Then of course if you look at all the other scriptures I already listed, they assert the permanency of our salvation. There is not a single verse you can list that definitively shows a saved person losing their salvation. Before you go listing one, look at it very carefully and see that it does not assert that, so you don’t waste our time! Thanks. God is not the kind of God you think he is. He is much, much better. Yet very few will be saved, relatively speaking.

 

[rinnie]

The problem is that when you see everything through the lens of works rather than grace, you ignore scriptures right before your eyes. If you read what Paul says here in Rom 8 and take him at his word, take the clear spirit of what he is saying, then this is the passage you need:
31What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written:
“For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”[l] 37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[m] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Then of course if you look at all the other scriptures I already listed, they assert the permanency of our salvation. There is not a single verse you can list that definitively shows a saved person losing their salvation. Before you go listing one, look at it very carefully and see that it does not assert that, so you don’t waste our time! Thanks. God is not the kind of God you think he is. He is much, much better. Yet very few will be saved, relatively speaking.

You have not showed me one permanency of our salvation.

Explain this one to me. In ephesians the bible teaches we are not saved by our good deeds, but that is only half the story. The same passages teaches another message that you seem to forget. We are saved for a very special purpose, namely to do good works.

Why can’t you not see that good works are not the cause rather the result of Salvation. Good works must ALWAYS ACCOMPANY true faith. If they are absent there is neither living faith or Salvation.

Do you believe that God will give or deny eternal life to every man according to his works?

 

[rinnie]

The problem is that when you see everything through the lens of works rather than grace, you ignore scriptures right before your eyes. If you read what Paul says here in Rom 8 and take him at his word, take the clear spirit of what he is saying, then this is the passage you need:
31What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written:
“For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”[l] 37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[m] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Then of course if you look at all the other scriptures I already listed, they assert the permanency of our salvation. There is not a single verse you can list that definitively shows a saved person losing their salvation. Before you go listing one, look at it very carefully and see that it does not assert that, so you don’t waste our time! Thanks. God is not the kind of God you think he is. He is much, much better. Yet very few will be saved, relatively speaking.

Oh here is my proof. One of the many

Matt 7:21-23 Not all who say to me Lord Lord shall enter the kingdom of heaven, BUT HE WHO DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER… I NEVER KNEW YOU.

Now you show me how you can do the will of my Father without works! How Faith without works can be doing the will of the Father. Does the Will. Sorry thats works. You cannot separate faith from works and you cannot have Faith without Grace. God saved us by Grace on the cross, and by that grace he gave us the faith and the will of the Father to do his Father’s works. Sorry your story of faith alone don’t fly.

 

[Philthy]

The Question:

Again, my friend, when you understand the true nature of the new birth and what happened at the cross–to the old man and to his sins–it becomes a non-issue.

I’ll give you a little hint: repeating that which you need to prove moves you no closer to having proven it. Perhaps if you were Christ’s authoritative representative your opinion, per se, would carry some weight. As it stands you have unfortunately offered precious little other than your confidence. Again, just a heads up. In addition, your 20 years of study add nothing to the table: most Christians who have studied scripture - regardless of the duration - do not find OSAS theology contained therein. Just a fact. Thats not even considering the first 1500 years of Christianity - no one taught what you are teaching during those times.

THERE SIMPLY IS NO CONDEMNATION FOR THOSE WHO ARE IN CHRIST–THE VERY POSSIBLITY IS GONE FOR ALL ETERNITY.

Correct: IF you remain in Christ, THEN there is no condemnation. That is what is known as a conditional premise. The problem is that Christ specifically tells us that it is possible to not remain IN HIM. IF you dont remain in Christ, THEN there is condemnation.

Ask God to show you what grace is and then you will know why we sing “Amazing Grace” and “Blessed Assurance” You will also know why Paul was cursing (literally) those who teach a ‘gospel’ that doesn’t embrace true grace!!

Thank you for your thoughtful advice to ask God to show me your true understanding of Grace - thats very humble of you.

 

[rinnie]

I’ll give you a little hint: repeating that which you need to prove moves you no closer to having proven it. Perhaps if you were Christ’s authoritative representative your opinion, per se, would carry some weight. As it stands you have unfortunately offered precious little other than your confidence. Again, just a heads up. In addition, your 20 years of study add nothing to the table: most Christians who have studied scripture - regardless of the duration - do not find OSAS theology contained therein. Just a fact. Thats not even considering the first 1500 years of Christianity - no one taught what you are teaching during those times.

Correct: IF you remain in Christ, THEN there is no condemnation. That is what is known as a conditional premise. The problem is that Christ specifically tells us that it is possible to not remain IN HIM. IF you dont remain in Christ, THEN there is condemnation.
Thank you for your thoughtful advice to ask God to show me your true understanding of Grace - thats very humble of you.

And also as Philthy has pointed out IF you remain in Christ. How can you remain in Christ and not do good works. How can you remain in Christ is you give into sin. How can you remain in Christ without following his ten commandments. And how can you follow his ten commandments without doing works.

Example Honor your Father and Mother Works

 

[Philthy]

Paul is talking about his apostleship.
You embrace a works salvation which is another gospel. Therefor working to keep your salvation fits perfectly for you.

“I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!”–Gal 1:6-9

Paul is talking about his salvation
You embrace a cheap grace salvation which is another gospel. Therefore having to avoid sin - which merits condemnation- repulses you.

Here listen to this and then just pretend that my version of the gospel is correct and then you will see that you need to change your mind on this!

“I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!”–Gal 1:6-9

Pretty silly isnt it? It just begs the question - which is the false gospel?

 

[CentralFLJames]

TQ - you blew past over 2 dozen scripture verses I gave you without refuting them and each soundly renounce the neo-Christian concept of OSAS. It simply WAS NOT TAUGHT in the early Church or by the apostles. This is a new, teaching that comes from the traditions of Protestantism and is less than 500 years old.

I am sorry to say this but I think you OSAS guys all talk out of both sides of your mouth. Your read of scripture would require one or more of the following assumptions: 1) It’s impossible for somone “truly saved” to ever succumb to temptation and sin again or 2) A “Truly saved” person can commit what appears to be grave sins (fornication, adultery, murder, abortion etc.) even if they participate in the “acts” since for a true-believer they become non-sin by a forensic declaration as a reward for being “truly saved” or 3) Anyone who sins - big or small was not really “truly saved” or was not called to be God’s.

Can you anwer just these few questions?

1. Are YOU “truly saved”?
2. Which of the 3 above exceptions do YOU claim for yourself?
   2-a) Do you believe you can ever sin again in your entire life?
   2-b) Do you commit what might be mistaken by non-saved as sin but believe you are exempt fro it?
3. Do Catholics who believe strongly in Christ and who just happen to also do works for Christ become “not truly saved” by the works they do while they “just believe”? In other words does exceeding the requirements invalidate the ez-believism of OSAS?

James

 

[Philthy]

There are a great many verses that refute the notion of OSAS. Two of my favorite are from Matt 6 and John 20. First from Matt 6:14-15

If you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly Father will forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your transgressions.

1st order of business: Recognition that salvation REQUIRES the forgiveness of our sins by God. All Christian theologies embrace this truth - we must be forgiven in order to be reconciled to God. That is the whole point of Christ as the “Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world”
2nd order of business: Observe the “conditional” established by Christ:
IF we do not forgive others their trespasses THEN God will not forgive our trespasses.
How clear is that? Its as clear as the parable of the “unforgiving servant”. There is no ambiguity here: forgiving others is a requirement of being forgiven by God. As we covered under the 1st order of business, being forgiven by God (reconciled) is a necessity of salvation. If we fail in this act of faith, of self denial and of mercy, God will treat us likewise - not good.
3rd order of business: Recognition that “forgiving others” is NOT A ONE TIME EVENT - it is ONGOING. We do not have control over others. They will “trespass against us” repeatedly over time. We are called to persevere to the end in forgiveness out of gratitude for the love God has shown us.

**What does it all mean in the context of this thread? **
Salvation requires forgiveness by God. Forgiveness by God is conditioned upon (among other things) forgiving others. Forgiving others is NOT a one time event - it is a lifetime event. The fact that we must continue to forgive others in order to be saved refutes OSAS because the “always saved” part no longer validly applies. If we become born again(aka saved), and then later freely and knowingly choose hatred of another over love (due to a trespass) and persist in this state until death, then our own sins will not be forgiven by God. If our sins are not forgiven by God then we wont inherit the Kingdom, we wont be going to Heaven, and we will not be saved. It’s really very simple.

Watch the spin and obfuscation that begins if one of the OSAS adherents is bold enough to directly counter this position. All of a sudden this verse "doesnt apply to Christians, or is hyperbole, or doesnt affect our salvation but only our “heavenly reward”, blah, blah, blah. I’ve heard it a thousand times…

 

[The_Question]

There are a great many verses that refute the notion of OSAS. Two of my favorite are from Matt 6 and John 20. First from Matt 6:14-15
1st order of business: Recognition that salvation REQUIRES the forgiveness of our sins by God. All Christian theologies embrace this truth - we must be forgiven in order to be reconciled to God. That is the whole point of Christ as the “Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world”
2nd order of business: Observe the “conditional” established by Christ:
IF we do not forgive others their trespasses THEN God will not forgive our trespasses.
How clear is that? Its as clear as the parable of the “unforgiving servant”. There is no ambiguity here: forgiving others is a requirement of being forgiven by God. As we covered under the 1st order of business, being forgiven by God (reconciled) is a necessity of salvation. If we fail in this act of faith, of self denial and of mercy, God will treat us likewise - not good.
3rd order of business: Recognition that “forgiving others” is NOT A ONE TIME EVENT - it is ONGOING. We do not have control over others. They will “trespass against us” repeatedly over time. We are called to persevere to the end in forgiveness out of gratitude for the love God has shown us.

**What does it all mean in the context of this thread? **
Salvation requires forgiveness by God. Forgiveness by God is conditioned upon (among other things) forgiving others. Forgiving others is NOT a one time event - it is a lifetime event. The fact that we must continue to forgive others in order to be saved refutes OSAS because the “always saved” part no longer validly applies. If we become born again(aka saved), and then later freely and knowingly choose hatred of another over love (due to a trespass) and persist in this state until death, then our own sins will not be forgiven by God. If our sins are not forgiven by God then we wont inherit the Kingdom, we wont be going to Heaven, and we will not be saved. It’s really very simple.

Watch the spin and obfuscation that begins if one of the OSAS adherents is bold enough to directly counter this position. All of a sudden this verse "doesnt apply to Christians, or is hyperbole, or doesnt affect our salvation but only our “heavenly reward”, blah, blah, blah. I’ve heard it a thousand times…

Fourth Order of Business: Recognize that God’s work of salvation takes all that into account, and that is why from as far back as the OT prophecies, God was telling us a new way was coming, where he would give us new hearts and write his law on our heart. Only born again people understand that. What you embrace is Unamazing Grace!

 

[The_Question]

TQ - you blew past over 2 dozen scripture verses I gave you without refuting them and each soundly renounce the neo-Christian concept of OSAS. It simply WAS NOT TAUGHT in the early Church or by the apostles. This is a new, teaching that comes from the traditions of Protestantism and is less than 500 years old.

I am sorry to say this but I think you OSAS guys all talk out of both sides of your mouth. Your read of scripture would require one or more of the following assumptions: 1) It’s impossible for somone “truly saved” to ever succumb to temptation and sin again or 2) A “Truly saved” person can commit what appears to be grave sins (fornication, adultery, murder, abortion etc.) even if they participate in the “acts” since for a true-believer they become non-sin by a forensic declaration as a reward for being “truly saved” or 3) Anyone who sins - big or small was not really “truly saved” or was not called to be God’s.

Can you anwer just these few questions?

1. Are YOU “truly saved”?
2. Which of the 3 above exceptions do YOU claim for yourself?
   2-a) Do you believe you can ever sin again in your entire life?
   2-b) Do you commit what might be mistaken by non-saved as sin but believe you are exempt fro it?
3. Do Catholics who believe strongly in Christ and who just happen to also do works for Christ become “not truly saved” by the works they do while they “just believe”? In other words does exceeding the requirements invalidate the ez-believism of OSAS?

James

You miss the boat on so many levels!

It is only the Roman Catholic Church that distinguishes between sins. Find out what sins angered Jesus the most.

We never think that being truly saved means not sinning. I sin every day, multiple times. But I hate it in my heart, because I am a brand new creature.

Jesus definitely paid for every sin I will ever commit, past, present and future. I hadn’t even commited the first one when he died for them all.

The Bible does teach (see 1st John) that those that go out from us were not of us. If you have a problem with that, take it up with John…errrr…the Holy Spirit

Jesus said, when asked, “What must we do to work the works of God?”…“This is the work of God, that you BELIEVE on Him whom He has sent.” Why is that true? Because true faith takes care of all the other works. God gave me a brand new nature the moment I was saved. He wrote his law in my heart as He promised in Jeremiah, and it’s permanent.

Again, you need to quit worrying about “always saved” and focus on “once saved”!

 

[rinnie]

You have not showed me one permanency of our salvation.

Explain this one to me. In ephesians the bible teaches we are not saved by our good deeds, but that is only half the story. The same passages teaches another message that you seem to forget. We are saved for a very special purpose, namely to do good works.

Why can’t you not see that good works are not the cause rather the result of Salvation. Good works must ALWAYS ACCOMPANY true faith. If they are absent there is neither living faith or Salvation.

Do you believe that God will give or deny eternal life to every man according to his works?

You still haven’t responded to my question.
Do you believe that God will give or deny eternal life to every man according to his works?

 

[CentralFLJames]

Fourth Order of Business: Recognize that God’s work of salvation takes all that into account, and that is why from as far back as the OT prophecies, God was telling us a new way was coming, where he would give us new hearts and write his law on our heart. Only born again people understand that. What you embrace is Unamazing Grace!

Why would we need to have a law on our heart if we could never break it?
Would a broken heart constitute a break of covenant or a break of law?

James

 

[Pax]

You miss the boat on so many levels!

…
…

The Bible does teach (see 1st John) that those that go out from us were not of us. If you have a problem with that, take it up with John…errrr…the Holy Spirit

Before repeating an erroneous understanding, please refute the correction. Please go back and read my post #140 and then answer it.

Jesus said, when asked, “What must we do to work the works of God?”…“This is the work of God, that you BELIEVE on Him whom He has sent.” Why is that true? Because true faith takes care of all the other works. God gave me a brand new nature the moment I was saved. He wrote his law in my heart as He promised in Jeremiah, and it’s permanent.

If your understanding of this verse is correct then Jesus frequently contradicts himself. An example of just one of these many would be contradictions would be found in Luke 9:23 which says:

And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.

Jesus also tells us this:

Matthew 10:19-22
When they deliver you up, do not be anxious how you are to speak or what you are to say; for what you are to say will be given to you in that hour; for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you. Brother will deliver up brother to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death; and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

I hope this helps.

 

[CentralFLJames]

You miss the boat on so many levels!

It is only the Roman Catholic Church that distinguishes between sins. Find out what sins angered Jesus the most.

Once again you resorted to hyperbole and dodged the questions…

There are no sophists in heaven…

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

More scriptural refutations of OSAS. Note how David lost his justification below.

IV. Some Examples of Justification as Ongoing (not a one-time event)
2 Cor. 4:16 - though our outer nature is wasting away, our inner nature is being renewed “every day.” This not only proves that justification is internal (not legal and external), but that it is also ongoing (it’s not a one-time event of accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior). Our inner nature is being renewed every day as we persevere in faith, hope and love.

John 3:16 - justification is ongoing, not a one-time event. God so loved (past) the world, that He gave (past) His only Son, that whoever believes (ongoing) in Him may have eternal life. The word “believes” is “pisteuo” in Greek which necessarily includes obedience throughout one’s life. This is proved by 1 Peter 2:7-8 which also uses “pisteuo” (to obey) and “apitheo” (to disobey). The same word “pisteuo” is used in many other verses about “believing in Christ” such as John 3:36; 5:24; Rom. 4:24; 10:9-10; cf. Rom. 1:5,16; 6:17; 16:26; 1 John 5:13 (often used by Protestants to support their “faith alone” theology). To “believe” means to “obey” throughout one’s life; it is not a one-time acceptance of Jesus as Savior.

Heb. 5:9 – Paul also confirms this by writing that Jesus became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him. Here are some examples of justification as an on-going process, and not a one-time event:

Gen. 12:1-4 – Abram is justified here, as God promises to make his name great and bless the families of the earth through his seed. Abram is justified by his faith in God. Heb. 11:8-10 confirms Abraham’s justification occurred here, before Gen. 15:6 (later) by referring to Gen. 12, not Gen. 15. Abraham’s justification increased over time because justification is not a one-time event, but an ongoing process of growing in holiness.

Gen. 14:19, 22-23 - Abram is also justified here, by being blessed by the priest-king Melchizedek. Melchizedek calls Abram blessed and Abram gives him a tenth of everything.

Gen. 15:6 – Abram is further justified here, as God promises him that his descendants will be as numerous as the stars. Because the Scripture says, “He believed the Lord, and He reckoned it to him as righteousness,” Protestants often say this was Abram’s initial justification, and cite Rom 4:2 to prove Abram was justified by his faith. Yes, it is true Abram was justified by his faith, but he was justified 25 years earlier in Gen. 12:1-4, as Heb. 11:8-10 proves.

Gen. 22:1-18 – Abraham is further justified here, this time by works, when he offered his son Isaac as a sacrifice to God. James 2:21 proves this as James writes, “Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?” James then confirms this by writing, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness” (James 2:23). These verses prove that justification before God is an on-going process, not a one-time event of accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior, and is accomplished by faith and works.

1 Sam. 13:14 - David is justified here, as God describes him as “a man after his own heart.” No one in Scripture is described like this. Acts 13:22 confirms David’s justification before God.

1 Sam. 16:13 – David is also justified here. “The Spirit of the Lord came mightily upon David from that day forward.”

1 Sam. 17:37-54 – David is further justified here, as he responds to God’s grace and God delivers him from the hand of Goliath the Philistine.

2 Sam. 6:9,14 – David is further justified here, as he expresses a fear for the Lord in the presence of His ark, and dances before the ark of the Lord with all his might.

**2 Sam. 12:7-15 - however, after David’s on-going justification before God, David falls out of justification by committing adultery with Bathsheba and slaying Uriah the Hittite. David still had faith in God, but he lost his justification because of his evil works. **

Psalm 32:1-2; Rom. 4:7-8; cf. 51:2,7-10,17 – **David repents **of his sin and writes these beautiful psalms about God’s mercy and forgiveness. Of himself, he writes, “Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered up.” David is re-justified before God. This proves that we can be justified before God, then lose our justification, and then be re-justified through repentance and reconciliation with God.

Matt. 16:18-19 – Jesus blesses Simon for receiving a Revelation from God, changes his name to Peter, and gives him the keys to the kingdom of heaven. In John 6:68-69, Peter, justified before God, declares that Jesus has the words of eternal life. In Luke 22:31-32, Jesus prays for Peter that his faith may not fail and charges him to strengthen the rest of the apostles. In these and many other examples, Peter is justified before God.

Matt. 26:75; Mark 14:72; John 18:17, 25-27 – Peter denies he knows Jesus and loses his justification before God.

John 21:15-17 – Peter is re-justified before God after he negates his three-fold denial of Jesus with a three-fold confirmation of his love for him. Jesus then charges Peter to feed the Lord’s sheep. Peter was justified, loses his justification, and regains it again through repentance and love.

Luke 15:24,32 - the prodigal son was dead, and now is alive again; he was lost and now is found. The prodigal son regained his father’s favor through repentance (v. 18-19,21). When we ask our Father for forgiveness, we too will regain His favor and be justified.

Acts 9:1- 17 - Protestants would say that Paul is instantly justified here, when he encounters Christ, obeys His command to enter the city, and is moved by the Holy Spirit. They would say that Paul’s sins are now covered up and Christ’s righteousness is imputed to him.

Acts 9:18; 22:16 - then why does Ananias command Saint Paul (who was directly chosen by Christ) to stand up and be baptized and “wash away” his sins? Because justification, as the Church has taught for 2,000 years, is ongoing. It is not a one-time event of accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior. Justification is freely given by God through faith, hope, love and the sacraments of the Church (here, baptism).

James

 

[Pax]

The Question,

In my last post I pointed out where Jesus mentions the necessity of endurance to be saved.

Here are a few more verses for you to ponder when it comes to endurance:

Luke 21:19
By your endurance you will gain your souls.

Heb 10:36
For you need endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.

Matt 24 :12-13
And because of the increase of lawlessness, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Now please notice that none of the passages quoted thus far indicate that we are saved by faith alone.

Moreover, scripture talks about us conquering sin as part of salvation and that it is those that conquer sin that receive salvation. Naturally, this is all accomplished by God’s grace and that is why it is not works salvation for which you seem fond of accusing others.

Now let’s take a look at Revelation 3:4-5. It says,

“Yet you have still a few persons in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes; they will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. If you conquer, you will be clothed like them in white robes, and I will not blot your name out of the book of life; I will confess your name before my Father and before his angels.”

Take note that these people are worthy for they have not soiled their clothes[they are not sinners]. And also note that it says “If you conquer” I will not blot your name out of the book of life. These poeple obviously have something that “they must do”. They must not sin and they must conquer.

Jesus also talks about the person who conquers in Rev 2:7 where he says,

“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.”

Then again in Rev. 2:11 Jesus says

, “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who** conquers** shall not be hurt by the second death.”

Then again in Rev. 2:17 Jesus says,

“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who conquers I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, with a new name written on the stone which no one knows except him who receives it.”

Then again in Rev 2:26-28

“He who conquers and who **keeps my works **until the end, I will give him power over the nations, and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received power from my Father; and I will give him the morning star.”

And finally Jesus says it again in Rev 3:12,

“He who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God; never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name.”

But wait, Jesus says it again in Rev 3:21-22

“He who **conquers, **I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I myself conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’”

And just when we thought it wouldn’t be said again, we find in Rev 21:7-8 another interesting statement that says,

“He who conquers shall have this heritage, and I will be his God and he shall be my son. But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.”

I hope this helps.

 

[Philthy]

Fourth Order of Business: Recognize that God’s work of salvation takes all that into account, and that is why from as far back as the OT prophecies, God was telling us a new way was coming, where he would give us new hearts and write his law on our heart. Only born again people understand that. What you embrace is Unamazing Grace!

Hmmm - Im not sure I follow your logic here. Actually Im sure I dont because you havent bothered to address a single issue that I raised and havent actually explained how any of what you said refutes what I presented.
Did you forget to study Debate 101 and Basic Verbal Information Exchange for Beginners during your 20 years of “study”? You simply swept everything aside with your personal conclusion that “God’s work of salvation takes all that into account”. Are we supposed to know what you are talking about? Are you saying that Christ’s words, which were recorded into the new testament for Christians, which immediately follow his direct instruction on how to pray, somehow do not apply to Christians and are not part of the gospel of Jesus Christ? Is that your claim?
Or do you somehow think that the fact that a new way was coming somehow favors your theology over Catholicism? You havent actually offered a single iota of information that would substantiate that weak claim. They are both “new ways” compared to the Old Covenant in effect during Isaiah’s time and cannot be distinguished by virtue of their “newness” with respect to his prophecy.
ISTM that you are just running with a verse that actually says nothing of what you claim and then you, once again, toss in your humble opinion that “only born again people understand that” as if you have some level of authority to do so. IMHO thats a strong indication that you cant actually demonstrate any of what you claim and that you surround yourself with people who dont challenge you.
Oh, and by the way - your appeal to amazing grace is falling on deaf ears. Amazing grace is a song and though a great one, its quite irrelevent and entirely unscriptural.
I think its about time that you back up your “20 years of study claim” with some mature, concrete arguments - your starting to make Protestant scholars look silly.

 

[CentralFLJames]

…

ISTM that you are just running with a verse that actually says nothing of what you claim and then you, once again, toss in your humble opinion that “only born again people understand that” as if you have some level of authority to do so.

Ah, Philthy, you just don’t understand the Gnostic mindset. You see only the “truly saved” are called by God and when they get “truly saved” (I think they have trademark/patent rights on this term BTW) they suddenly get infused with this “other” super-double-secret knowledge that only works in the minds of those who have been properly conditioned. It sort of a latter-day DaDivinci Code that one who’s mind has been properly washed with truth can lay a mental template over scripture that lets them blot out and ignore 80% of the verses that were only written down in the bible to confound Catholics and people who are not called to be “truly saved”.

James

 

[The_Question]

Paul is talking about his salvation
You embrace a cheap grace salvation which is another gospel. Therefore having to avoid sin - which merits condemnation- repulses you.

Here listen to this and then just pretend that my version of the gospel is correct and then you will see that you need to change your mind on this!

“I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!”–Gal 1:6-9

Pretty silly isnt it? It just begs the question - which is the false gospel?

I’m glad you pointed that out. Have you read Galatians? Let’s see what Paul says…

“4This matter arose because some false brothers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves. 5We did not give in to them for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might remain with you.”–2:4,5

Paul even had to rebuke Peter–

“14When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs? 15"We who are Jews by birth and not ‘Gentile sinners’ 16know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.”–2:14-16

So you see, Paul is, after all, cursing not those who embrace a ‘cheap gospel’, but rather those who pervert the pure gospel of grace through faith by adding works to it as a requirement to attain or keep salvation. And of course he says in Rom 4 that “a man is justified by faith apart from ANY works of the law.”–a verse most Roman Catholic teachers seem to gnash their teeth over.